I am searching for a selfhosted and secure (end to end encryption) chat platform for my family (5-20 users), possibly one i can host on a raspi.
Is matrix a good choice, or should i try something else?
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I just have my kids, wife, close friends and in-laws on SimpleX.
Sure, some of them use mainstream stuff as well, but if they want to reach me, that’s their only option.
Matrix is a pretty good choice for self-hosted. The reason I don’t do it is because I’ve become lazy lately.
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Matrix has issues and can be a pain
Telegram
Not self hostable and not secure by default.
Effectively not encrypted, requires a smartphone, can be anal about bans, etc.
Rocket chat is like slack but FOSS… haven’t tried it myself but it could be something
Not E2EE though, or at least not fully.
I mean if it’s just a private server for just the people he knows then I don’t get why this would be a concern, but if it is to mitigate family drama then rocket chat definitely has end-to-end encryption https://docs.rocket.chat/use-rocket.chat/workspace-administration/settings/e2e-encryption
Not FOSS anymore. More like open core these days.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
Fewer Letters More Letters IP Internet Protocol RPi Raspberry Pi brand of SBC SBC Single-Board Computer SSL Secure Sockets Layer, for transparent encryption TLS Transport Layer Security, supersedes SSL VPS Virtual Private Server (opposed to shared hosting) XMPP Extensible Messaging and Presence Protocol (‘Jabber’) for open instant messaging
5 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 7 acronyms.
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Ideally, SimpleX (https://simplex.chat/). Session is nice, but less secure (https://getsession.org/). Delta Chat (https://delta.chat/en/) will be secure enough, and the most familiar visually. Lastly, XMPP is a great solution as well.
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Sorry, didn’t mean to.
What makes session less secure? This is the first I’ve heard of it.
Session has user IDs, the so-called “sessions”.
Simplex is the first platform I’ve heard of that doesn’t use IDs (which doesn’t make much sense to me, practically, but sure). So would you say everything is less secure than simplex?
I say it depends on what you are looking for. Depends on your “threat model” – among other things.
For example, if you are looking for something more private (smaller chance on linking identities with digital footprint, smaller chance on identifying a person, etc), I suggest SimpleX. They also have a great protocol. Their white paper is worth reading as well. But it might be a little challenging for non-tech people. And the thing is still in development.
If you don’t mind Session’s IDs (after all you can still store them somewhere and change them), it’s a good one. The protocol is promising, and they have a nice white paper. Unlike SimpleX, it’s much easier to set up for a non-tech person, although it’s also in development.
XMPP (Conversations, Monal, etc) rely on a well-known technology, and it is stable. And the interface doesn’t scream “hacking”, " techy" etc.
Lastly, Delta Chat is also a nice project, with a well-known record. The interface looks super convenient and familiar. And the functionality is feature-rich enough in case you want to doe something special.
I would say the thing with IDs (or absence of IDs) is yet another layer that ensures privacy and security. But all of the apps are secure enough. Even Signal is secure enough if you don’t mind exposing your phone number.
I guess the real question is about convenience. That is, knowing about SimpleX, Session, XMPP, and DeltaChat, which one is convenient, private enough, and secure enough for your particular case.
I am suspicious of it because you pretty much cannot host a node. Well, you can - but you’d have to deposit an INSANE amount of money (like $2k or something). While Simplex, even though I do have a concern with its initial centralization by the power of default, is decidedly easy to selfhost.
Simplex chat would work
However, I wouldn’t host on a Raspberry Pi or even at home for that matter. Get a VPS and host it there. Linode even has a one click app install for Simplex Chat
Why not host at home?
To much risk and you won’t have as much uptime.
Whats the risk? My uptime is pretty good and I host from home.
Matrix is fine but quite slow. Has excellent clients and is feature rich.
There’s also an app called Circles that turns your Matrix chats into a social feed.
XMPP is fine but the available clients are outdated and ugly.
Session is also self-hostable and anonymous.
Not true about xmpp in general. There are modern clients out there.
Prove it
Just for reference, here are my favourites on each platform.
Each support modern XMPP extensions, interoperate very nicely with each other, and (at least in my opinion) look good!
- Android: Conversations
- iOS: Siskin
- Windows & Linux: Dino
- Mac OS: Beagle IM
- Web: Converse JS
https://gajim.org/post/2024-06-10-gajim-1.9.0-released/ looks great these days. Give it a try.
https://movim.eu is also a really nice looking modern webclient
Gajim looks like it runs on windows XP. Movim does not appear to be a client.
Lol, what? Did you download an old version or are you just trolling?
And of course Movim is a client, a web-client like I wrote.
I don’t see anywhere to access a Movim web client, only to start your own server. Also no screenshots anywhere that shows what it looks like.
There are literally multiple big screenshots on the page I linked and a big join button that brings you to https://join.movim.eu where you can chose an instance.
Matrix is slow on large instances, but that’s not the case here, especially if no federation is done.
And the issue with sluggishness is currently the main development focus with ElementX/matrixX that will become mainstream matrix soon. With that even the large instances are extremely fast.
Matrix is slow everywhere. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. Element X is also super slow. Waiting 5-10 secs for messages to appear every time I open the app. I know what I’m talking about.
And on which instance did you experience that?
All of them
Thanks for confirming that you’re full of shit.
Because there are very very few Sliding Synch (which is the part of X that makes it faster) instances at the moment and only one that has a major userbase…
Why would I lie about this?
I tried the sliding sync servers as well. Those were included in “all of them”.
Mattermost runs as a Docker container and is excellent. You can create channels and groups which is incredibly useful.
Mattermost is a lot like Slack, right?
Yes.
Mattermost does not have E2EE to my knowledge.
Can we use group meeting in self hosted version?
Is there e2e encryption available for mattermost that normies can use?
I’ve been using matrix for years to this purpose, but moving to xmpp/prosody now
What clients will you use for xmpp/prosody?
Gajim on pc (I use arch btw - well endeavourOS because I can’t be bothered) and don’t remember what on android (there is the full list or clients and capabilities on xmpp.org)
The easiest is to use the clients officially rebranded for Snikket, but there is a good overview on modern clients on https://joinjabber.org
Can I ask why you’re switching?
No.
Yeah ok. First of all, because I can 😁. I mean z what’s good being an IT nerd if I can’t change stuff when I want?
Jokes aside, I’ve been reading more recently on matrix and looks like there are some security issues in the design of the app/protocol. I’m on mobile now, I’ll look for sources when I’m on pc. Also I don’t like that it is a server centric system (so data is primarily on the server instead of the clients). Also it takes more resources than I was expecting. For less than 10 users I can’t have less than 4gb of ram (on a dedicated debian server, running docker) or it swaps so much it kills the system.
So basically I’m testing out if xmpp is a better system for those issues.
Conversations being paid on the google play store is what’s stopping me from going xmpp… I can’t just say “message me via xmpp, you can use the Conversations app”. Now I’d have to explain what F-Droid is and why would they even get another app store and enable “unknown apps”. it’s not doable. I remember telling my mom to install Signal (before I got into self hosting) because I deleted whatsapp and she got angry like she worked for the zuck, saying “what do you mean you don’t use whatsapp” with an astonished face, started lecturing me on why I was destroying my social life… That just made me realize right now they probably wouldn’t download conversations either…welp I just wanted to share
I know exactly what you mean. Just for general information, I’ve found another android client that I think it’s better than Conversations. It’s called Monocles chat (and it’s on f-droid). On matrix/xmpp I install the whatsapp bridge. I can convert a few close family members but no way everyone. For me it’s an acceptable compromise. I get the close members to use my servers/apps, everyone else through the bridge so I can at least have all the chat in one place
How do you convince your family/friends to switch to a new app on their smartphone and use one just to talk with you/others in the crew?
My dad suggested me this after i told him about the new upload filters the eu is thinking about. Here is a link to a german blog post about it: https://netzpolitik.org/2024/anlasslose-massenueberwachung-frankreich-wackelt-in-der-ablehnung-der-chatkontrolle/#dokument
Frienda no, but I do use whatsapp bridges so I can have all conversations in one place.
Family with extreme nagging, and because I’m the IT guy of the house so they kinda trust me/can’t be bothered to try and out-talk me.
WhatsApp bridge? How does it work?
The chat server (matrix and xmpp have different ones, but same functionality) that act like a whatsapp desktop client. Have you ever run whatsapp desktop client on your pc, where you have to pair it with your phone? Same thing, but you do it withing a special “bridge” (usually as a bot) in matrix or xmpp. So you get all the messages in one place. But it doesn’t work for calls, just for messages.
I’ve never heard about those bridges, thanks! I’ll have a look.
Also https://conduit.rs/
Dendrite iirc is essentially in maintenance mode. I run a small one but I don’t think it’s expected to get any new features until there is more funding.
I know it’s not self hosted but why not Signal? Matrix is demanding on a SBC and your family would probably get the ‘unable to decrypt message, please re-verify keys’ error that happens in encrypted matrix group chats and Element does not have the best UI especially if you want your grandma to use it.
Very unlikely by now, these issues have been adressed a while ago.
What’s your source on the reverify thing? I use matrix a lot, and this hasn’t been an issue I ever experienced anymore since they introduced cross-signing a couple years ago.
Same goes for the common clients such as element. It has been clunky in the past, but after the past major overhauls ( also years ago now) everything has been silky smooth for me, if not better than others. The one thing left I prefer from Signal is the one-time photo share.
Matrix is great, clients are great too, only the server part still is annoyingly complicated and messy. Would only recommend that for tinkerers, on that case it’s a great path to learning about the complexity of addressing lots of security concerns that others gloss over.
Edit: to add - there’s a reason why the French government and the German military decided to build their secure internal IM infrastructure on Matrix. Obviously they are hosting their own private network, but if the concept is good enough for European government and military, it is an indicator for quality especially in terms of security and privacy.
i had slightly issues with the failed to decrypt on element, just on a chat where the other person left
https://snikket.org/ (xmpp based) is perfect for that. Matrix will work, but you will likely reach the limits of your Raspi with it fairly soon if you allow federation with other servers.
I recommend Matrix with the Conduit server. This server requires almost no resources and even runs on a Raspberry Pi.
Cinny works perfectly as a desktop client (in case you want to escape from the ubiquitous Element). And for mobile I would use Element for Android/iOS although FluffyChat also works very well.
Conduit seems to have next to no docs on actually installing it for some reason.
They are very focused on development and therefore the documentation is a bit sparse (maybe).
The truth is that it is not very complicated to install. It is simply to download the binary (it is statically compiled so it has no dependencies) place it in
/usr/binand execute it (the best is to create a user in the machine with the home in/var/lib/conduitand then launch it with systemd).Another option is to simply launch it with docker.
In any case, if you have problems, comment it here and we will look to see what could be happening.
This is nice to know. Cinny looks beautiful from a UX perspective, wish they made an app too. Not enough good UX in open source stuff.
Yes, without a doubt, for me it is the most balanced client, a pity that there is not for Android, but well, in mobile Element does not give problems either.
matrix should cover everything you need with the added bonus that you can chat with people from other instances
I just wish it was more secure and performant
Self host beeper… I love matrix but people struggle with maintaining a key and password … beeper simplifies this and has other chat protocols (bridges) that might entice normies.
Those are Matrix bridges. Beeper is a skin over matrix.
Matrix and beeper
Im aware, I’m specifically speaking about the log in process being simpler for most people on beeper vs matrix. I use beeper thru nheko, as you said it’s just matrix. But less work for the end user
