More like it’s yet more proof that you cannot rely on the police to protect you.
The Supreme Court ruled like a decade ago that cops DO NOT have a constitutional right to protect you. A cop can literally watch you get stabbed to death in the streets, and they are not obligated to help or stop it. Let that sink in.
NOT have a constitutional
rightto protect you.Duty* actually. They can if they want but they don’t have to.
Small, yet big, difference.
Yeah none of those guns were actually “in the school” because thin blue line means
copscowards above anyone else. They won’t risk their lives for you.That should be obvious based on the fact that they only respond to crimes that have already occurred. By their own nature, they’re completely reactionary.
Cop’s first priority is themselves. If it’s convenient, they might help others.
How many of those cops are still employed, I wonder…
How many of them are being paid to police schools.
We need more guns in schools and less cops. An armed teacher would at least try.
Addressing the fact that the US have a worrying fetish for firearms isn’t on the agenda, is it? No, let’s give guns to teachers.
An armed teacher would be the first target.
If they’re carrying handguns eventually there will be a school shooting that starts by a child grabbing one of those.
Great idea. The school can set up a firing range with tiny silhouettes in the gym for teachers to practice putting down a little child. We’ll just add “marksman” on top of the other responsibilities they’re already underpaid for.
You jest but schools here used to have shooting teams back before the school shootings started. Once they started the teams quickly got disbanded.
Rifles with live ammunition? Yeah that does seem misguided in retrospect. Not as misguided as handguns in the classrooms IMO, but yeah, definitely not going to fly in these troubled times.
Honestly it was fine, that was before the shootings started. But once they did start they passed a federal law prohibiting guns on school campus and effectively ended the teams, which many did before anyway because “what if…” not that they were a problem.
Teachers are already underpaid and overworked.
Okay setting aside whether there should be guns in schools, this argument doesn’t make sense. There were, in fact, good guys with guns on the scene. The police prevented them from intervening.
As they should. You don’t want to add random gun owners adding chaos to such a scene.
But this could have been prevented by police actually doing the job they were paid for. If they had taken care of the shooter like they should have, the question of other people wanting to enter to do the police’ job would never have arisen.
As they should.
Huh? I mean if they did their job there would be no need for that, but if not the least they could’ve done is not to stop people who wanna do something.
Huh? I mean if they did their job there would be no need for that
That is one part. They should have done their job and taken care of the shooter. Here, they were an unexcusable failure.
But they also should keep anyone else out of this. That was my point.
Tbf if they were outside the classroom, then we lack the data to say “it’s proof more guns inside don’t help.”
I know it’s nitpicking, but also had they done their actual jobs they’re fucking paid to do, but not required to do thanks to Castle Rock V Gonzales and Warren V DC, then the “more guns” would likely have been what killed him instead of “his own gun.”
I understand why the anti self defense crowd wants to use this as fodder for their agenda, but personally this speaks more of the failures of our entire policing system to me. Frankly to me it’s a glaring example of why we need to be able to defend ourselves, the cheesedicks we pay to come help us won’t.
Yeah lets arm the children! And school teachers!
🤡
BTW you can understand that “outside the classroom” with just minimal intelligence IMO.
Hell yeah that’s what I said! Definitely didn’t say “the cops should have used their guns inside the school to do their fucking job” or anything.
Can I help you learn to read or something? I’ll help sponsor whatever today’s equivalent to Hooked On Phonics is for you if you promise you’ll study this time.
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How are you liking Reddit so far?
Your framing of people who are concerned about gun violence as “the anti-self defense crowd” is very disingenuous. No one is anti-self defense.
Cops refuse to show up on my methhead neighbors - they have weapons. But when my (then) husband wanted to evict my little unarmed 5’3” butt from the house I’d lived in for the past seven years, after physically beating me to the point I wasn’t really cogent, they sent a whole riot squad to pick me up.
If they had ONE more gun or ONE more officer they could have saved ALL those kids! Which is why we need to take MORE money out of Education and INTO Police Officers Bank Accounts!
Oh the irony of saying “all the guns stayed outside” right before saying “this is proof that more guns in our schools will not keep kids safe”.
Maybe by more guns in school, they meant the kids should carry the guns.
- Kids buy gun
- Take guns to class with them
- Gun industry profits
- ??? 🤷♀️
- World peace
Too bad the shooter wasn’t black. The cops weren’t trained for this.
This is a cop problem, not a gun problem. All the guns were working, including the shooter’s. The cops saw fit to take their lunch hour instead of working.
Just saw a video. Hahaha, I’m gonna stop being capitalist cattle and switch to crime.
If your Mafia family is organized as a worker co-op, is it praxis?
But I’m not Italian!
Why not?
They won’t let me be Italian.
Really enraging to have all those Punisher logos juxtaposed with their cowering and pants pissing.
This is a cop problem, not a gun problem. All the guns were working, including the shooter’s. The cops saw fit to take their lunch hour instead of working.
This. Specifically it’s a “police do not have a duty to protect” problem, that stems from a series of court cases going back to at least the 80s.
I think it’s a problem that cops are just hired employees rather than anything more significant than that.
I mean, if it were up to me they would be paid better, required to insure both individually and at a department level against damages to civilian persons and property, and subject to much stricter civilian scrutiny.
They would keep qualified immunity, but with much tighter reigns on the “qualified” part. Immunity only when necessary, with civilian oversight as to when that is. We would toss out the thing where police are not liable for damages done by them, they would be responsible for and expected to insure against it.
The insurance thing is two tiered for a.similar reason - if the damage is deemed necessary for law enforcement purposes by civilian oversight then it would be on the city and the city’s insurance to pay for it, if not then on the officer and the officer’s insurance. This eventually prices bad (but not quite criminally bad) officers out of the job.
Are you a doctor?
No, but malpractice insurance was exactly what I was thinking about as a model.
Uvalde is majority-minority. If cops went in, more kids probably would’ve died.
That’s tongue-in-cheek gallows humor but sadly not too far off from reality.
If we’re playing “what if”, my made up story is that they rushed in with 300 cops and nobody died.
But the reality is they did NOTHING.
I don’t really get what you’re saying.
That most people there are minorities, and cops don’t do well around them.
I’m not sure any of them are more interested in being crucified than shot.
I get what you’re alluding to, but actually the cops yelled out that they were there and for any children hiding to come out (obviously well before they’d neutralized the shooter) and the kids who responded and came out of their hiding places were shot dead because the cops were too cowardly (or busy checking their Facebook feed based on video evidence) to actually protect these innocent 5-10 year olds. I have a child in that age range and my blood starts boiling even discussing this topic.
Let us not forget that these wannabe police even arrested parents who were willing to rush into danger to protect their children. That’s all they were good for on this day.
The guy that was checking his phone…his wife was one of the teachers in the school that died.
I think if anything, that cop deserves a little slack.
I recall a conservative news segment where the “jounalist” and “expert” had discussed that the kids should have rushed the shooter and overwhelmed him. Doesn’t matter they were 6-7 they should have stepped up and stopped it all.
Meanwhile, the actual people gained to do that wouldn’t, despite overwhelming numbers
Gaslighting or, pardon the pun, disarming what actually could be done in government to prevent this from happening in the future is despicable. It’s epitomizes the modern understanding of the US Republican party. The government can’t fix anything: it’s the citizens’ responsibility for systemic problems.
Conservatives, what the hell happened
“Hey kid, it’s up to you to stop another acute manifestation of the US’ problem with guns”
So grow up and make harsher gun laws?
I think that’s actually one of the few ways that could work out well.
No, it doesn’t prove that guns in school won’t solve the problem.
It proves you can’t trust cops to do the bare fucking minimum.
If teachers had been armed? It might–might–have ended sooner with fewer innocent victims. At least the teachers had some skin in the game, and teachers usually care about the kids in schools.
Giving guns to teachers to fight school shooters is exactly the excalating move that I would expect from the US.
What’s your solution?
Grow up and stop thinking guns make you look badass, for one.
How about “Less guns in the hands of those who should not have them in the first place”, like every other civilized country does? And guess what, those countries know “school shootings” only as something America does.
I’m with you there in general.
We don’t need metal detectors outside of school either
My solution is making gun ownership less indiscriminate. In my country, I’d have to prove that I need a gun for self-defense and pass a psychological and physical check. Moreover, the license would have to be renewed after 5 years.
The problem is that in the US, the guns are already in the hands of everyone. There are more guns than people. The cat’s out of the box.
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Buyback programs in the US are good for PR but do little to remove guns that would be used in a crime. Mostly people sell their junk and old rifles at these things. Many times, while they’re waiting in line they’ll get a better offer by the mob of people on the sidewalks looking to buy.
Ammo restrictions, I agree would be effective. But the 2nd Amendment would shut that down.
Documented firearms, again the cat is out of the bag. There are millions of undocumented firearms in the US. And no criminal would use one with a paper trail anyway. This just makes things harder for honest people.
Those “proven” methods haven’t worked in the US. The 2nd Amendment and a very armed population will see to it that the guns are here to stay, by force if necessary.
I’m not a defeatist, I’m a realist.
Each of these ideas solves a different aspect of the bigger problem, but none of them will solve the entire issue.
The problem is that with these ‘realistic’ views, we never make ANY progress by just throwing our hands up, saying ‘Well there are just too many guns to solve the problem with a single solution.’
I have a friend that used to be a stripper (“exotic dancer”, if you prefer). She tried to get a concealed carry permit–in Detroit–long before Heller v. D.C. and McDonald v. Chicago because she had a stalker. She was denied, because she didn’t have any greater need for self-defense than any other person.
Who defines psychological wellness? For reference, I’m a gun owner, and I compete in shooting matches on a regular basis. About a decade ago, I failed to complete suicide; I attempted suicide because I was being seriously abused (verbally, mentally, emotionally, financially, and sometimes physically) by my ex-spouse, which had lead to serious isolation and depression. I believe that I am mentally healthy now–as did my last psychiatrist–but I am forever barred from owning a firearm in Illinois because I was held for observation at a hospital in the state. Moreover, people with serious mental illnesses are more likely to be victims orf violence rather then perpetrators.
Why should people that are less physically capable be less able to defend themselves?
You can’t “prove you need a gun for self defense” until it’s too late. Unless you mean “only of you’re rich, important, and white (this is America mind you) enough that we think there’s a chance those dirty not-white races may attack you.”
Personally I don’t think we should limit guns to the wealthy elite, I think that even us lowly poors deserve the right to protect our lives.
I’ve never even thought, “I need a gun” and I’m not rich or wealthy or affluent. The only reason I’ll ever learn to handle firearms is to shoot fascists if the need arises.
Damn fine reason. Unfortunately not everyone is as lucky as you in not needing one before then, too. I wish they were, but unfirtunately there are still people who want to victimize others. Less than there used to be though, crime has gone down since '93, so that’s a positive!
From all my internet lurking I discovered that America is a country almost beyond redemption, or at least some states.
I always wonder if it is really that bad or am I just hearing the usual ‘my country bad’ talk like anyone does but the news point to the first one basically every time. I can only assume it is mostly true and sympathise.
As someone who lives in middle eu capital city and has proverbial 4 houses it is all quite mind blowing. I feel like I live in completely different reality and I am grateful for it every day.
It’s however very painful to hear all you just plain suffering. Maybe that’s why my mind goes ‘it’s probably exaggerated’ it can’t be that bad can it be?
“If it bleeds, it leads”. Yes, we have some things that are just not right, and sometimes horrible tragedies, more often than a modern country should. But if we keep talking about it, it may seem even worse than it is. Like you, most of us haven’t been impacted by school shootings, but yeah
The US is the size of Europe. And good stuff doesn’t hit the news very often.
There are clearly bad things that need fixing, but the badness varies from state to state and you’re probably getting a distorted picture regardless.
So honest question. Do you know anyone who’s been threatened with gun violence? Because as an American my initial response was that it isn’t that bad, but then i thought about the fact that if you answer no to that that would probably be weird to me. Sure I’m rarely in such a position, but from time to time yeah I have to watch myself because I know crazy people who have guns or I know I’m pissing off an armed and violent person by doing something like helping their dv victim escape. The idea that guns wouldn’t be involved in such situations is more foreign to me than initially expected.
Yes I do. In fact the couple was held at gunpoint by 2 men who robbed them, and then felt up his wife in front of hime with gun barrels in their faces.
Cowards who hide behind a gun
I’m in Canada and don’t know anyone I can say for sure has been affected by gun violence or threats of it. I’ve personally been in a situation where I was trying to make small talk with a wannabe gangster and apparently asking about jobs can be dangerous I guess when they make money from mostly illegal shit and he threatened me until my friend came over and convinced him I’m not an under cover cop. But even that threat was a, “what if I had a piece” rather than “I’m going to shoot you”.
I only ever saw or shot bb guns until in my 30s when I did some target shooting in my friend’s back yard. He kept his guns all locked up when he wasn’t using them, ammo locked separately. Partially for the obvious safety reasons (even though he lived alone), partially because a part of the license is that police are allowed to come and inspect how you are storing your guns. I don’t know how often this is used in practice (don’t think my friend ever had it happen), but it’s a sign that the legal state of guns is very different across the border.
I can’t even think of any robberies using violence or threats of violence I have first hand or second hand knowledge of. Theft, yes, but like the “car was left unlocked and someone noticed” or “someone picked an easy to pick lock”. That last one happened to me, I figured out who it was and just told him to stop coming around and I’d leave it alone and I never saw the guy again. It might have been a bit dangerous if I wanted satisfaction from the situation, but I think there might have been an equal chance he would have just accepted the L and paid be back for the weed he stole.
Pistols require a seperate license that is much harder to get. For rifles and shotguns, you can get a license as a hunter, recreational shooter, or collector (amateur is fine but you do need to get your hunter license first before you can use it to justify a gun license). There was a gun registry but the conservatives scrapped that the last time they were in power.
For pistols, they are limited to certain professions such as police officer, military (I assume), or professional hunter/trappers who work in bear territory and aren’t necessarily carrying a rifle or shotgun ready to go if suddenly confronted by a bear. I believe there’s certain self-defense scenarios that allow them (like a proven threat that is difficult to neutralize, like with connections to organised crime).
It’s gotta be extreme because carrying anything for self-defense is generally illegal. Like if you have a pocket knife you use to open packages, that’s ok, but if you carry that same knife for self-defense purposes, it’s an illegal weapon. Some knives like switchblades or butterfly knives that can be deployed with one hand are always illegal.
I think this is a bit much, because knives that don’t fold are ok and IMO the question should be more about what scenarios one thinks it is ok to defend themselves with a weapon than having had that consideration at all. That said, the situations where someone might think a weapon is called for but isn’t are probably more common that situations where one is necessary to defend oneself. But I digress.
The pretty much ban on pistols I think is what makes the difference. In some states, the risky part of carrying a pistol is about if you use it or if you specifically shouldn’t have one (felony or something). In Canada, just carrying it runs the risk of losing it and catching charges, which means that situations where someone would use a hidden pistol in the moment are more likely to have a cool down period while they go get their gun and might realize that it’s not worth it or might not be able to find their victim again afterwards.
There is some gang activity but I think even that is way more chill here and any violence is probably more related to score settling than turf control. I get the impression that the cops are more chill about non-violent stuff here, so that could play into the equation in that the risk differential is higher if violence is involved. Or I could be wrong about that because I’m not a minority (but I suspect it’s because police violence is investigated (and not just by themselves) and dealt with more consistently here, and the lower likelihood of getting randomly shot probably allows them to be more at ease).
I never worried about anyone having a gun in my life at least not realistically so. I mean I live in pretty safe place. All the bad ppl left 15 years ago for the USA, Britain and so. We are the nation of religious, sometimes toxic hobbits. Worst is social ostracism as that can be really bad in the smaller places if you didn’t vote same as others or you dated same gender. Or didn’t go to the church…
I wish everyone could be a nation of hobbits, that’s like ideal in my eyes
Point is when I hear about knife fights in UK I am like wow brrrr.
Biggest bad news lately in my capital was that some poor woman got sexually assaulted and died a month or three ago while returning from some party at 5 AM sunday which was very shocking. It really was the most disturbing thing.
Everyone is very anti immigrant here though. Even the pro Democratic/leftish Party just legalized shooting at the border to immigrants (in case of aggression). Kinda crazy. I think at this point they simply wouldn’t get elected at all if they were pro immigration. One single, very left party pro immigration has 6% of votes.
It seems that this change in narrative of the pro eu pro democrats helped them win over alt rights but like ya know it’s all super complicated morally. I guess almost 100% of people don’t want (Arabic) immigrants and it is long sailed ship.
I am very conflicted about all it internally. I am not blind what happens when you let culturally and socially distant immigrants en masse but I don’t want those people to suffer either. I don’t blame them for trying to get where is much better place to live but I also don’t want to sacrifice myself for it…
It’s super huge problem and we all gonna have some blood on our hands I reckon if we don’t already have…
Also I remember there being lots of drunk homeless people once long ago but I haven’t seen one in such miserable state at least in a long while. Just realised it now. Long ago I was semi afraid to go to the liquor store because of all the types consuming high powered drinks. Harmless still but it definitely changed. For whatever reason. I hope it is for the good reasons and not the bad ones.
Overall I think we are moving into interesting direction though slowly and a bit bloody at times considering the borders. they are only going to get worse and most have uncanny ability to forget about such things immediately when they accidentally hear about them. We all prefer to pretend it’s all cool and distant or whatever. I myself prefer not to dig into the horrors that must happen there uh
So honest question. Do you know anyone who’s been threatened with gun violence? Because as an American my initial response was that it isn’t that bad
I mean, I’m only in my 30’s and I know four people who have been shot. Two were robberies, one was a seemingly random act of violence, and the fourth was due to a domestic dispute. Three are still alive, but that fourth died in his girlfriend’s arms before paramedics arrived. It happened a decade ago, and she still has night terrors from it. And this is in a nice suburb, not someplace full of gangs.
Any person in the U.S. that has interacted with a police officer has been threatened with gun violence. It’s implicit in that 9mm they carry on their hip.
But yes, I know people who have been shot, shot at, and had weapons drawn on them too. By actors other than the state.
Well yes. I was asking the Europeans. As an American gunshots are a part of life
From all my internet lurking I discovered that America is a country almost beyond redemption, or at least some states
If America is a sum of its states, they are beyond redemption.
If the world is a sum of its countries, we are all beyond redemption.
Imho the whole system is broken and until everyone (worldwide) starts aligning then the world is lost. We aren’t there yet.
I used to think a major global catastrophe will fix the system, like world war, or a hostile alien invasion. Then covid happened and we’re back to square one in the aftermath, if not worse. I realised there’s no fixing it. In my opinion, it’s not that we aren’t there yet, it’s that we will never be ‘there’. Having said that, when I say never I speak about our lives or that of our grandchildren, perhaps a few more generations. If humanity survives a few more centuries after that, if not millenia, who knows what could happen.
For some it’s an nightmare for some it’s just Tuesday.
For the Tuesday folk that doesn’t mean they should sit idly and let it happen or even actively encourage it, but that appears to be what they think they’re entitled to.
It’s a strange contrast living in the US sometimes. My personal life is pleasant and I work to keep it that way. I like where I work and I see multiple good doctors on a regular basis. But I’ve had plenty of my own troubles over the past 5 years too.
…but I also have eyes. I see the same crazy shit you do, and furthermore I have enough personal acquaintances to know that the crazies we both read about are fully serious and indoctrinated.
So, I wouldn’t say that the suffering is exaggerated, just that it isn’t ubiquitous. It’s a big place. Millions are doing OK while millions of others are getting beat down by life.
A big caveat to this is that of the millions who feel they’re doing “OK,” millions of them are one missed paycheck away from homelessness. Only ~40% of Americans can cover a $1000 emergency, for example.
Yeah, a lot of people are misled or just used to the shittiness. And as I’m sure we’re all aware, a big chunk of the population has been continued to think that the people taking advantage of them are some kind of heroes worthy of worship.
In some states, it really is that bad.
And every insane and cruel story you hear about our heathcare system is true too.
I’ve started calling it a wealthcare system.
wealthcare system
Accurate assessment
car wealthcare system
I’m curious how perfect the country you live in is.
It is 8/10 where I live Public transport, edu, health, weather a bit too hot in summer because of city lacking green area but I have this small property 30 km away from city with just pure green everywhere and I smoke joints there and paint in summer.
My flat is barely liveable in summer without AC as it is on the attic.
People are peaceful mostly they just value not drawing attention to themselves and generally you can go alone at night with no problems. Only slightly worse as woman. Probably 50/50 if visibly trans - not sure but I’d wager it would be suprisingly rare considering how religious some ppl are. They will just tell you to fear Jesus or smh or maybe laugh or comment but most likely won’t do anything. Still if there is anyone that should be cautious it’s visibly trans ppl at night but then at night it’s harder to clock a trans woman so that’s that. I guess if you dressed like drag queen and went to the darkest places at night there would be 50/50 chance of some unpleasant or maybe dangerous situation but those bad places aren’t as many here as there were in the past.
Nearest bad place near me got renovated and while we were drinking there extensively late at night in the past, we got tickets for our shitty ways. Most dangerous places seemingly disappeared as the drinkers disappeared and places got revamped.
I guess now that I am on the other end of the stick that’s just pure win instead of „god there’s no more place to drink and make chaos in this neighbourhood, the end is near”
Ok cool. You just described a vast amount of places in the US.
Yay so that’s cool, not all that bad huh?
From social media one sees the USA as a terrible, terrible place. I once even wanted to visit but after all I have read I no longer harboured that idea.
Also I hate guns nowadays even though I liked them once but like I really hate that kind of culture
From social media one sees the USA as a terrible, terrible place.
I’mma be honest with you, that’s by design. The people posting/news/politicians want to make it seem more dangerous than it actually is because fear gets clicks and votes, which translates to ad revenue and
“totally not bribes”excuse me, “lobbying.”In reality crime was on a steady decline from 1993-2016, had a slight uptick from 2016-~2022ish, coinciding with the pandemic and political unrest, and now it’s back on the downswing. In that time, it never rose above pre-1993 levels. It’s not as bad as the powers that be would have us (and by extension you and the rest of the world) believe.
I live in Arizona, one of the more trigger-happy states (we allow concealed carry without a permit) but I haven’t been personally affected by any gun violence in 20 years. There was a shooting on the edge of my neighborhood a few weeks ago, but I didn’t hear about it until days later, just happened to see a news story. It was some sort of party situation, the people knew each other, not random.
Cops not being willing to defend you or your kids is another great reason to arm yourself.
