I recently moved to California. Before i moved, people asked me “why are you moving there, its so bad?”. Now that I’m here, i understand it less. The state is beautiful. There is so much to do.
I know the cost of living is high, and people think the gun control laws are ridiculous (I actually think they are reasonable, for the most part). There is a guy I work with here that says “the policies are dumb” but can’t give me a solid answer on what is so bad about it.
So, what is it that California does (policy-wise) that people hate so much?
The houseless problem seems extremely poorly managed. I lived in NYC for six years and have visited California a few times. From my experiences, both SF and LA appear to have much larger populations living outdoors (I checked and this is true, 75% of LA’s population vs 6% in NYC, and the cities are comparable in both population and houseless population).
I would imagine it has most to do that those people world have extremely hard time surviving winter outside in NYC.
California as a state and population seems to be at least as much bluster as action. I don’t want to detract from some real actions, like car electrification requirements, but for example, prop 65, the “known to the state of California to cause cancer” labels. A) California seems to “know” many things that science does not. B) no one pays any attention to these labels, but they sure cost a lot to produce C) if anything, this will cause people to ignore future warnings for real things or even current ones like on cigarettes.
The proposition 65 aka The Safe Drinking Water and Toxic Enforcement Act of 1986, actually is much more successful at reducing harmful toxic chemicals and affects other states too. Businesses are encouraged to change formulations so they don’t have to use the label.
Here’s list of chemicals that require such label: https://www.p65warnings.ca.gov/chemicals
What you saw, likely was businesses trying to fight it, by being to opaque about it, and make it ridiculous (since there’s no penalty for overusing it, and they are doing which results as you pointed out that waters it down) for example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_California_Proposition_65#/media/File%3ADisneyland_Prop_65_Warning_crop.jpg
Although since enforcement is done via civil lawsuits. If they served food or something that did contain these chemicals, a sign like this won’t be a good defense that they complied and warned their patrons.
They also trying different ways, like introducing bills on federal level to block it for example https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/6022/text
They are trying also via lawsuits, which meant are filled on behalf of strawman. Many businesses were created just for the purpose of filing prop 65 lawsuits.
Though probably biggest issue is that the prop 65 is being used for frivolous lawsuits (as anyone can sue for not informing and get a settlement because no one wants a trial). So now AG needs to approve such settlements to reduce it. There were attempts to reform it.
So yeah frivolous lawsuits are the biggest issue that needs addressing, but other than that the law actually helped reduce exposure to those chemicals not only for Californians but also people from other states.
75% of LA’s population lives outdoors? Is that a typo, because it’s obviously not true. Even the 6% you state for New York seems very unlikely.
Sorry I didn’t really pay attention to the numbers, but willing to believe CA would have it higher than NY just purely, because of the weather. Yeah, it is ridiculous.
Contextually it’s clear they are speaking of the homeless population.
Is it? They wrote “75% of LA’s population”.
It’s endless soulless suburbia interspersed by twelve-lane traffic jams, what’s there to like?
That sort of self-gratifying nonsense only works if the target is more successful than you.
Using it against a target that is less successful than you would be picking on people who can’t defend themselves.
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Lol, California isn’t just LA.
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You are missing out on all the state parks, beaches, lakes, rivers, mountains, snow, etc. We have it all. Every type of environment is only a few hours for me to get there.
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Next time just type “I only know some stuff about Los Angeles”
It’s more that a lot of people move out from California and trash-talk it to anyone who will listen. This happens with everywhere, but because CA is so populous it has more people doing this than other places.
Though, IMO, the weather sounds terrible to me.
the weather where? it’s a big state, with quite a lot of variation. there’s a huge difference between san francisco, bakersfield, and truckee. i think most people could find some local weather to hate, but i suspect most people can also find somewhere to appreciate. unless you just want tropics or arctics or something similarly extreme i guess.
I like arid and cool best, but what I really value in my weather is variety and seasonality.
you want seasons, we’ve got seasons:
that’s an old image though, we’re actually in summer now.
That’s such a nonsensical statement to make about a state the size of California. Just the 3 main coastal cities have vastly different climates, and that’s not even getting into the highly varied ecosystems found inland. Are you thinking specifically about the weather in the LA area?
Might be Fresno area.
Who would ever move to California for the weather, I mean have you looked the 5 day forecast for death valley?
LA weather sounds bad, heat and smog.
SanFran weather sounds bad, always the same temperature.
The northern part sounds bad, too much rain.
All of California has a pronouced dry summer with low humidity, no thanks.
Sorry, but that’s just not true. California’s coastal areas are hugely impacted by moisture blowing in from the Pacific. San Francisco’s historical average humidity in August is above 60% and the temperature rarely goes about 80.
If it’s rainfall you want, just go a bit further north. Coastal Northern California receives about as much annual precipitation as Seattle. You can find basically any climate you could want in the state – trying to make a blanket statement is pointless.
The weather is one of the largest reasons people migrate to california.
Even if your homeless, its of the few states where you could be outside year round and not die due to the more extreme points of weather that you would experience in mamy other states
Exactly. I prefer more variety in my weather. I need the highs and the lows, the sun and the snows, the days when wind blows, y’know?
Yeah, I joke that California does have four seasons - they’re just Summer, Wildfire, and Mudslide. Possible Earthquake to shake things up.
But to be fair, it is a long state. SoCal gets most of the attention, but NorCal gets some great seasons as you get closer to the PNW
Do you think all of California is Death Valley, or what?
There’s a large amount of perceived haughtiness from the residents of California. They have a lot to be proud of though - it’s a great state in a lot of regards.
Full disclosure, I’m Canadian but travel to San Diego often for work.
Downtown San Diego is not as I remember it from before the pandemic. It’s quite clear to me that California is struggling with a massive mental health and addiction issue. The cost of living compounds these issues and amplifies the worst in people. Even “normal” working class folk are quick to anger and explode at the slightest inconvenience and people just do not give a shit about each other. I pin it to everyone being stressed out because they live paycheck to paycheck and the future is always uncertain.
Things that I think could help: universal healthcare, increased public housing, and the execution of the sackler family.
It depends entirely on where you visit in the city. Plenty of areas have zero issues. Downtown sucks, though. I’m more surprised you’ve ever enjoyed it there…
When I lived in Southern California (which is very different from other parts of the state) in the early 90s it was exactly like that. And when I have visited. I always tell people to watch it because a lot of people are really quick up take offense and anger in public and they never believe me until they see it, which they have on each trip back.
I love other areas of California, it’s beautiful, but Southern California always felt like a pressure cooker to me.
San Diego used to be a lot worse in a lot of ways. Honestly people have short memories. Admittedly, downtown is starting to look like 80s-90s downtown again, in a lot of ways though.
I can honestly say that there are a lot of terrible people out there, but in my experience San Diego always manages to come together when it matters. And honestly, in most day to day interactions, the vast majority of people I interact with are pretty nice overall.
I mean I lived in Anaheim in a terrible part of town on the early 90s with no car and a 40 minute bike ride to work, it was inevitable that I was going to have some bad experiences (robbed at gunpoint, crazy lady with rabid dog living in front of my building, getting screamed at and having stuff thrown at my by passing cars because I was on a bike, etc).
My coworkers (kitchen work in a big hotel) were great, it was just when I was going to and from work I’d see a lot of crazy stuff.
In later years, going back, I just found people were on a hair trigger. Like I was with two co-workers (was there for something like a work conference) in a store buying beer and these two guys were in costume so my buddy (from the Maritimes) said “those are awesome costumes” and these two guys went nuts on us.
Profanity, threats, it was wild. We just apologized and they were telling us to go f ourselves as they left.
Or I went to sf with my wife about ten years ago and she wanted to stop at a gas station in the city to use the washroom. I was like “just keep your focus on the cashier to get the key and I’ll wait outside the bathroom”. She told me I was being paranoid. Before we even got out of the car two dudes got into a fistfight and a cop saw it and tore in return the lights and siren going.
Just stuff like that going on all the time. Meanwhile, a few hours away you have paradise on earth.
Totally. It’s definitely area dependent. I was speaking to San Diego as a whole, more than downtown specifically. I personally wouldn’t go to downtown SD by myself, to like walk around. But, I never would have since I remember it back in the day.
Just like you didn’t go to certain neighborhood here unless you had a reason. My husband doesn’t remember SD like that, so whenever someone invites us to one of those neighborhoods (which most have been heavily gentrified now) my first reaction is always like uh….fuck no.
Shit even parts PT Loma/sports arena are are getting pretty awful again. Sports area was okish for a while, but there are SO many encampments in there now.
I think every downtown in every city in North America is pretty bad right now. I’m not anti-city but poverty, drug poisoning (like cutting drugs with crazy stuff that makes taking them very unpredictable), and general disorder are really stacking up in every downtown. I live in a large city in Western Canada, the downtown is really not ok to hang out in even during the day.
For various reasons, I am familiar with the situation in many other cities and they all seem to have similar issues. The city here put out water dispensers for people to use and then criminals started to gate keep them, charging money to access. I just don’t know how to stop that besides putting a cop or two by each one but police here continue to use their inability to stop this crisis as a way to get additional funding each year… Sigh. Not really sure why I’m ranting like this, it’s just really frustrating.
I don’t doubt that at all. It’s hard for everyone. SD and CA big cities as a whole are the destination for a lot of homeless/unwanted either willingly or “forcefully”. Largely because of our temperate climate and “liberal” policies, so we see a lot of it that we wouldn’t, if people didn’t explicitly come here for that reason.
I was mostly trying to comment on how SD was vs how it is now. It’s definitely MUCH safer here than it was in the 80s/90s. Early 90s was bad here, but people don’t remember, or more likely, are transplants and weren’t here for it.
Right on, I get you. Thanks for clarifying and have a good one. :)
Long time resident of California (SoCal in particular), can confirm haughtiness. I’ve grown increasingly prideful of my state for holding strong on specific human right issues.
You’re also right about the increasing disparity though. It feels like stratification is getting stronger and stronger each year. The Beach Cities area in particular, from my experience, where they’re building a bunch of (very expensive) flats. California has had a history of states shipping homeless/refugees to us and that doesn’t help our increasing number of state-grown displacements.
Also universal basic income
There’s a large amount of perceived haughtiness from the residents of California. They have a lot to be proud of though - it’s a great state in a lot of regards.
The Napa Valley liberals are staggeringly arrogant when you meet them in person.
California has Medi Cal which is pretty close to universal healthcare.
It’s nice, but it does have some glaring gaps in it, such as the usual exceptions for most “luxury bones” concerns (teeth). Last I checked, Medi-Cal only covers one basic cleaning a year, for example.
My dental is taken care of by local Indian tribes. I’m not native.
I think this is mostly due to the highly polarized political climate. California is the most populous state and it’s policies frequently end up spreading to other states and therefore is frequently focused on because if it’s major influence. This is similar to how Texas and Florida are in the news a lot for their more conservative policies. While there are people out there who take the time to inform themselves and make their own decisions most people are only able to parrot back talking points they hear from the news or their friends. I suspect your coworker is one of those people and probably leans conservative so all he hears all day is how California’s policies are making housing too expensive and it’s too “woke” etc.
Political policy that’s extremist, whether left or right, doesn’t make sense.
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California is disliked by other US states for the same reason other countries might not like the US. It gets a disproportionate level of exposure and then you go there and it becomes a “don’t meet your heroes” type of situation.
Uh… you might want to Google “why might another country hate america”…
I’m sure different people will have their own reasons. But for the most part, I know it’s a cultural intrusion thing. Very few countries have a majority of people saying they like the American media and American style of democracy being coaxed on them.
… no. Okay just. Here’s some good links for you to get started with.
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War
That’s a part of what I meant. It’s all within the projection umbrella I was talking about.
No. War crimes. Read a book.
You say that like I didn’t just imply I was agreeing with you.
projection umbrella
There is no ‘projection’. America went out in to the rest of the world, tortured, killed, murdered people and broke entire countries for americas gains. People hate america for the actions it took against them.
you need to understand that it’s not some twisted form of jealously or annoyance and that america did serious evils in the world that people hate it for.
Generally when the us is hated it is intruding against democratic forces
That’s what I said.
I’ve only visited San Francisco once, and I loved it, I’d gladly move back if it were affordable.
But from the outside, California can feel like a bit of a nanny state. The perception is that the legislature passes a large bill to fix a problem, but the bill is poorly crafted and causes two more problem, then the bills to fix those cause 4 more problems.
That sounds like you are just repeating what you heard in conservative media.
I mean, you said that you just visited San Francisco, once, but you are so versed in Californian legislature and that it is a nanny state.
I am repeating what I heard in conservative media, that was the point
I feel like one of the problems with California is the Proposition system. Anyone can introduce a proposition to be put on the general ballot with enough signatures. Most of the far-reaching laws in California were put in place by propositions including Prop 65 warning labels and Prop 13 property tax caps. They generally have provisions that make them very hard to repeal by the state legislature.
With the rise of political ads and social media, it allows special interests and corporations to pass favorable laws. For example, Uber and Lyft put up Prop 22 to classify rideshare drivers as independent contractors and poured a ton of money into ads to convince voters to pass it. It needs a 7/8 majority in the legislature to repeal it. For context, the California legislature had previously passed a bill to regulate rideshare drivers as regular employees, requiring the companies to provide benefits.
Politics wise, it is seen as a hub of liberals. That means you have conservatives doing their best to knock California down the same way that liberals will do the same for Texas and Florida.
That said, there is a cost of living crisis that is caused a lot in part by the wealthy blocking increased density while locking in low property taxes due to date of purchase. So, a lot of coverage gets portrayed as rich liberals say they want these things, except near them.
It is also easier to film homeless in California since the weather makes it easier for them to live outside and the state is failing bad at providing housing for them.
Tbf Florida has gone completely off the rails, so much so that conservatives should be concerned…
Florida has gone off the rails, but this is what conservatives want. Hell, some conservative states are bringing back child labor.
But they should be worried about it is all I’m saying. They want it now because that’s what conservatives in charge say they should want and that’s enough, but they desperately need to step back and see what’s happening but then again, if more people were capable of doing that we wouldn’t be in the shitter.
Lol, Texas and Florida are doing a good enough job of knocking themselves down without help from me.
Well from my perspective it’s not that people hate California it’s that they hate the influx of Californians in their state. Tons of tech people moved from San Francisco to Austin and now it’s near unrecognizable. Austin a long time ago used to be a small city with a lot of charm now it’s the tenth largest city in the US. It’s not just Californians moving their but they are the biggest group and they are pretty loud about where they come from.
Everything gets more expensive, they bring some of their failed policies with them, and there are a lot of weird ideas that come out of California. I don’t mean your generic lefty policies that may upset some old timers in Texas but like the weird transhumanism shit that tech people are obsessed with. It feels like a cult, another thing California is known for, and it’s basically the opposite vibe of what Austin used to be. I personally have met a lot of Californians I really like but it’s not hard to see the culture clash. Also when I say California I really mean San Francisco and LA, not like Sacramento or the other parts of California. It’s the tech people, the Hollywood people, and the groupies they aquire. They leave California due to costs and it’s somewhat chaotic nature but then start to transform their new home into California.
If you’ve ever met old timers in Texas you know great don’t like change. They talk about building an overpass as a sign of the apocalypse. So that’s where I assume most of the hate comes from.
Austin has been a tech center since the 80s.
True. Dallas and Houston have a lot of tech too, but Austin has become San Francisco 2 fairly recently. Dell was the big home grown tech company a lot of these other companies and start ups are from California. Nobody would accuse Dallas of being like San Francisco because it’s more traditional corporate tech. I think sxsw attracted a lot of people from California.
And a lot of the folks that moved there did so for the same conservative leaning reasons tech companies did, like less taxes. Feels like a lot of selection bias going on.
And many of the people moving from California aren’t California natives. Some dude who moves from Ohio to California for a year and then moves to Texas is going to be lumped into this group.
I’ve met people from California who now live in Texas and are right leaning and typically they are very right wing. More so than your average Texan. Most older people in Texas don’t like change and are Christian conservatives. The right wingers from California feel different to me. I’ll use the term neo reactionary to describe them, but they are the no regulations, meritocracy, pro eugenics types. You can’t use the old school stuff like “what would Jesus do” which would occasionally work on getting the most stubborn conservative Texan on a neo reactionary as they typically don’t believe in God.
I’ll be honest I’ve heard some of their ideas and they frighten me. They imagine a antidemocratic world controlled by AI and tech executives. It’s very different from the conservative Texan ideas I’m used to seeing. The classic Texan conservative wants prayer in school and the freedom to not wear a seatbelt. They can be stubborn and annoying at times but I’m used to it and I think they mean well. I don’t feel the same way about neo reactionaries.
they bring some of their failed policies with them
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
For better or worse California is a forward thinking place but also an exclusive one. It’s also very expensive to live there. The price to live in Austin has gotten crazy high and now there is a much larger homeless population. Austin’s solution to this now mimics San Francisco which is to pretend it’s not happening.
Also California loves regulations for some but not others. For every smart regulation they have some “futuristic” new thing that annoys people. Silicon Valley is basically exempt from regulation at all.
For a recent example the Waymo driverless taxis that break down in the road and cause traffic jams. They are only in 4 cities; LA and San Francisco of course, but now because of the influx of tech workers they are in Austin and Phoenix. Used to be that only San Francisco would be a guinea pig for tech and social experiments but now it’s spreading to where they moved to.
They’re jealous because they’re too poor to live in CA. They believe everything they hear on the news and don’t realize that there’s more to the state than wildfires and homeless people. They aren’t cultured enough to appreciate theater, fine cuisine, fine wine. They’re too fat to surf.
I would say the attitude shown in this comment is a more likely reason than the content of this comment.
(Dislikes an entire state with 35 million people)
(Accuses others of having a bad attitude)
(Feels superior)
I don’t dislike California. In my other comment I said I think it’s an okay place. I only provided negative statements because that’s what OP asked for. CA has a lot going for it. It’s a beautiful state, home of Silicon Valley, etc.
And I think the attitude in your original comment speaks for itself.
I wasn’t necessarily directing the comment at you (I hadn’t even seen your other comment), but generally to people who say they dislike California. It’s a shitty attitude, so it feels a bit rich to then claim “the fact that you’re expressing being offended is exactly why I was justified in being shitty”. Blah. It’s all bullshit. Ignorant opinions don’t deserve a positive attitude in response.
And BTW, you see this ignorance in California itself. People in Southern California think Northern California is a burning crime-ridden hellscape. People in the North think SoCal is shallow and materialistic.
I don’t doubt that there was a kernel of truth to the jealousy aspect of your original comment, wanting to live there but not being able to afford it seems likely for some as CA has a lot going for it. But then you called people who dislike it uncultured, and even fat shamed them. I would say that went too far, and that’s the attitude I was responding to. The attitude in this comment is civil and one I can have an actual conversation about the pros and cons of California with.
I was being facetious about the fat thing. Culture you can get in certain other places, but not everywhere. Many ethnic foods are only (well) represented in California, NY, and Chicago. If you don’t care you don’t care, but if you do it can be a deal breaker.
Most people out of the state who complain about California, never lived here, they are just repeating what they heard on conservative media.
If it was a hell hole like they say, the property prices would be cheap, no one would want them.
Most people that are leaving, are leaving because they got priced out and cannot afford to stay.
I would think that the people leaving have the money to move anywhere, due to being cheaper than CA. Buying home in cheaper states or due to work.
You’d think, but it can be difficult to save up moving costs for a long distance haul + deposits + getting a new job lined up while living paycheck to paycheck.
It’s the network effect. Many industry leaders are already here so everyone else wants to be also.
The real estate / rent prices are so insane that it is already affecting malls and smaller shops but it’s still not causing the real estate market to draw down. In fact if anything the continued trend of prices rising higher and higher only attracts more demand.
I think one reason is the news portrayal like others mentioned—though this often goes two-ways—ask a native Californian what they think the South or Midwest are like and you’ll often get some crazy off base responses.
I think another big piece is that CA policies have a disproportionately large impact on everyone else’s policies (they share this characteristic with NY to some extent). CA has the 3rd largest economy in the world and therefore companies often have to adhere to CA policies in order to keep from losing an extremely significant market share. For example, CA committing to no more gas cars by X date immediately made gas vehicles an obsolete product for the manufacturers’ bottom line.
It absolutely has a lot to do with Right wing/Republican propaganda, California, Chicago, and New York represent everything they hate so they constantly use both states and that city as negative talking points.
One point they constantly make is that New York City is a crime riddled hellhole, meanwhile NYC has one of the lowest crime rates in the entire country, and one of the lowest murder rates, it’s just a massive city with a massive population and everyone there has cameras so when stuff happens it goes viral. Also the Red States tend to have much higher crime and murder rates.
All in all this is usual conservative/right wing tactics, they constantly want to isolate and segregate themselves from other ideas, and aren’t afraid to take over where other people live to exclude the people already living there. This is why Idaho, Texas, Florida, and Utah have similar campaigns about “don’t California my state” and by “California” they mean don’t bring your “liberal/socialist/Communist/woke/progressive/democratic” outlook to their states, because they don’t want to be responsible for cleaning up the racism and various other problems that the red states seem to have adopted as their identities.
Also I know quite a few conservative Californians and New Yorkers that recently moved to Texas and Florida, and as conservative as they thought they were they actually talk about moving back to where they came from because of how it is in their new states, except for the fact that they moved to the new states because they can afford so much more than what they could in California.
Overall my point is, if you consume right wing media then you are conditioned to hate blue states, and particularly those blue states are Cali, NY, and the city of Chicago as well as DC, I’m not saying these places are without flaws, but I am saying that the propaganda and disinformation about those places has amplified the hate towards those places and their residents.
I believe this is true. Progressivism is just one thing I like about the state. It’s also gorgeous. Big Sur, San Francisco, Yosemite, sequoias, numerous vineyards, craggy beaches, and scenery that can transition from valley to plains to desert to mountains in just a couple hours’ drive.
My conservative family still asks if I’m safe here in Seattle because they “hear so much about it on the news”. They still think Seattle is just always being with protests and the libbrerl government is just running the city into the ground.
Which Seattle and most cities have problems, all cities have crime, but no more than usually. It’s just that people live in cities. Per Capita crime in a big city can and is around the same of a rural area, but people don’t think in terms like per Capita.
But fox news loves to spin that to keep rural people afraid, keep them thankful for their backwards laws and ideas. Because what really happens when you move somewhere like Cali? You meet people from different backgrounds and religions and suddenly your views might be challenged a bit
It’s their got dam libbrerl government causing problems I tell ya
Crime in rural areas is, on average, higher than in cities, per capita.
Vermont is safer than large cities, but that’s never what the right wingers are talking about when they say rural.
I wish the city council was what Republicans make it out to be! This place is dominated by NIMBY centrists.
Also damn near everything I’ve read about crime rates says that rural areas have substantially higher crime rates on average.
This is why Idaho, Texas, Florida, and Utah have similar campaigns about “don’t California my state” and by “California” they mean don’t bring your “liberal/socialist/Communist/woke/progressive/democratic” outlook to their states, because they don’t want to be responsible for cleaning up the racism and various other problems that the red states seem to have adopted as their identities.
This also happens to a lesser degree with “the nearest large & fairly progressive city” I grew up in Madison, WI, fell in love with a girl from a small town across the state and we moved in together, got married started a family etc. So the dogwhistling that happens when you talk about the nearest liberal big city is real. I’m selective about who I tell that I grew up in Madison, and I listen for the obvious dogwhistling like “oh I try to avoid Madison as much as possible” “oh I really don’t like Madison”
And now that trumpian politics have had a chance to really take hold we’re planning on moving to a larger city, in part because we dont want our kids growing up around so much racism. When local online communities, local organizations and local community meeting places (aka the local bars) are riddled with dogwhistley comments because people feel comfortable saying them (which wasn’t so bad just a few years ago!) It’s just not pleasant
Exactly right! Conservatives will say this about literally any nearby city, the only thing I’ve been able to come up with is that they’re petrified of the city, just pure fear. Even something as small as Madison they’ll dogwhistle up and down on because they’ve never been and they’re terrified of it. Anything new or different is bad, of course.
I don’t know that they’re actually afraid. I think they are just signaling group affiliation and have chosen to side with the bosses.
Oh no I’ve seen pure fear, bringing rural friends to my city to hang out has had legit fear with them. It’s stuff that will pass, but simple things like jumping on a train to go downtown or walking down a busy street will freak them out. Crowds and people sure, but there is truly a layer of fear that they’ve been taught about going into cities
