I just read this point in a comment and wanted to bring it to the spotlight.
Meta has practically unlimited resources. They will make access to the fediverse fast with their top tier servers.
As per my understanding this will make small instances less desirable to the common user. And the effects will be:
- Meta can and will unethically defedrate from instances which are a theat to them. Which the majority of the population won’t care about, again making the small instances obsolete.
- When majority of the content is on the Meta servers they can and will provide fast access to it and unethically slow down access to the content from outside instances. This will be noticeable but cannot be proved, and in the end the common users just won’t care. They will use Threads because its faster.
This is just what i could think of, there are many more ways to be evil. Meta has the best engineers in the world who will figure out more discrete and impactful ways to harm the small instances.
Privacy: I know they can scrape data from the fediverse right now. That’s not a problem. The problem comes when they launch their own Android / iOS app and collect data about my search and what kind of Camel milk I like.
My thoughts: I think building our own userbase is better than federating with an evil corp. with unlimited resources and talent which they will use to destroy the federation just to get a few users.
I hope this post reaches the instance admins. The Cons outweigh the Pros in this case.
We couldn’t get the people to use Signal. This is our chance to make a change.
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are you peppy from osu! ?
Big corpos don’t want to take it over, they want it gone.
https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
I don’t think XMPP comparison is correct.
First, in my personal (subjective!) opinion, XMPP died because of entirely different primary reason: it, by design, had trouble working on mobile devices. Keeping the connection was either battery-expensive or outright impossible, and using OS native push notifications had significant barriers.
As for Google Talk - it just came and went. Because they never had proper MUCs (multi user conferences, think communities), in my own (again, personal, thus subjective - not objective!) experience it was quite the opposite to how the article paints it. Whoever participated in chatrooms I’ve been in, and had used a Google account, hated Google’s decision and moved to XMPP. I’m no fond of Google, but their impact on XMPP was not strictly negative - they contributed some useful XEPs and useful free software libraries after all. Although, of course, for those who used XMPP primarily as a classic messenger system (like MSN, AIM or ICQ) for private 1:1 chats things surely looked differently.
Now, why I think the comparison is not correct. I think Threads’ situation is different because of fundamental differences in how those systems operate. And not in favor of Threads/Meta. If Threads would be Lemmy or XMPP MUC-like system (that is, having communities/groups hosted on particular servers), then it would be a complicated story, where Fediverse could even theoretically score a net win. But as I get it, Threads is Mastodon/Twitter-like thing, and their users’ content will stay with Meta, entirely at Meta’s discretion whenever they let other systems access it, and when they pull the plug. Given that Meta is also not likely to contribute to FLOSS Fediverse projects, their Fediverse presence is of questionable benefits to say the least.
Fantastic read. Thanks for the link.
Absolutely. We’d have to be nuts to think they’re not trying to take it over and ruin it.
Damn, that’s a terrifying vision of the future. I was on the fence with defederating, but we probably should.
Your comment should be top.
I really don’t understand this logic… There is literally absolute no advantage by not federating with Meta.
Why would users prefer the free Fediverse MORE if it’s not federated with the “big and good” Metaverse? If anything it just drives them away into Metas arms, because the non-Meta instances are small and all the stuff is on Meta anyway.
Defederating is just the worst case result, but instantly from the beginning… How does that do any good???
thats what ive been saying, atleast use em for a while to get some of the user base to switch over.
Both those things literally happen with 100% certainty and instantly when you defederate…
Meta is not going to go away or fail somehow just because everyone defederates from them!
Most people in this thread have a vastly overestimated opinion of how large the fediverse is, how relevant it is to social media overall, and how much any other social media company actually cares about what’s going on here. If every server defederates from Meta, Meta will just shrug and go on with its day, and continue siphoning users off anyway. Probably even faster than before, because there will be no way for fediverse users to see the Threads stuff they want to see. They’ll have to explicitly re-home over there. And what are the chances they’ll stick around on the fediverse after that?
If people want both things they can easily access both things without needing them to be connected.
Exactly!
For those who don’t know, the strategy is called Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. The phase comes from Microsoft who used this to (try to) crush competing document editors, Java implementations, browsers, and operating systems. Other big tech companies employ similar strategies.
Facebook coming to the Fediverse is the Embrace phase of this process and that makes Mastodon, Lemmy, Kbin, Misskey, and Akkoma the competitors.
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I really need to get familiar with how blocked content is handled. If this is supposed to be federated-as-in-email, users need to get messages when their content is blocked or denied from a server. If you allow a submission to act as if it has been accepted when it really hasn’t, not only is it deceitful but it contributes to the problem. What will win out is the service that ends up blocking social content while blocking actual toxicity the best.
Everything is gonna be alright.
Meta has practically unlimited resources. They will make access to the fediverse fast with their top tier servers.
They absolutely have limits. For example Threads isn’t in the EU yet, because of strict controls that severely limit what Meta can do.
As per my understanding this will make small instances less desirable to the common user.
Small instances are already undesirable to the general public and always will be.
Meta can and will unethically defedrate from instances which are a theat to them.
No they can’t. The EU will only allow them to “ethically” defederate.
When majority of the content is on the Meta servers they can and will provide fast access to it and unethically slow down access to the content from outside instances. This will be noticeable but cannot be proved
If Threads is slow, people will switch to another service that is fast.
This is just what i could think of, there are many more ways to be evil. Meta has the best engineers in the world who will figure out more discrete and impactful ways to harm the small instances.
If they ask their best engineers to do something evil, most of them will quit. Why work for an evil corp when you can work almost anywhere you want?
Also they don’t have the best in the world - those already left (or refused to work there in the first place).
Privacy: I know they can scrape data from the fediverse right now. That’s not a problem. The problem comes when they launch their own Android / iOS app and collect data about my search and what kind of Camel milk I like.
At least on iOS, that type of cross app tracking doesn’t work anymore (unless the user opts into it, which nobody ever does). Apple’s change to how tracking works is costing Meta billions of dollars… and protecting the privacy of about a billion people. Yay Apple.
But more to the point, people who are worried about privacy will only install Threads if it’s the only way to reach thier friends/family. Since Threads will be federated, they won’t ahve that reason.
I have Facebook and Facebook Messenger on my phone and once Threads is federated I will be enouraging all my friends to sign up for Threads, so I can reach them. If my Mastodon instance defederates Threads, I’ll be leaving that instance (Lemmy, on the other hand, I might not care so much).
My thoughts: I think building our own userbase is better than federating with an evil corp.
Better in what way? One of my metrics is being able to contact people who will not sign up for Mastodon.
I love the fediverse specifically because it allows me to reach people on other instances. Defederating should be limited to harmful content (and I don’t see any evidence of harm in Thread).
We couldn’t get the people to use Signal. This is our chance to make a change.
Even I won’t use Signal. Talk to me when I can install it on both my phones, instead of just one of them (using the same account on both phones).
Finishing on a more positive note - Threads is going to be full of ads. I think a lot of people won’t be OK with that… and if threads is federated, then people will sign up for small instances like this one. I think we’ll be fine.
If they ask their best engineers to do something evil, most of them will quit. Why work for an evil corp when you can work almost anywhere you want?
Same reason Microsoft engineers stuck around despite antitrust, anticompetitive behaviors, EEE attacks. Same reason people are still working at any evil company.
Also, I’m sure a large portion of their engineers are on a work visa, so they really can’t just up and leave.
If someone is one of the best engineers at facebook, they can get a work visa somewhere else.
They can change find new employees
yeah, i really, well and truly do not wish to be linked with meta on fediverse. it’s obvious the damage it will do either way. may as well stay as we are and avoid the termoil which meta will bring us should they decide to federate.
Regardless of what anyone thinks about politics, nothing good will come by letting them in. I hope all current instances defederate, I know mine will.
Will lemmy.world defederate?
I run my own instance here at twisti.ca and have the full intention of defederating
nice to hear that.
I want to know too, they arent saying despite a lot of their users asking which is irresponsible.
I anticipate they will federate and I will have to close my account and move.
Is there a way to block threads content?
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
How many things will we let them ruin before we finally learn that corporations cannot be trusted?
Practically speaking? Everything.
Agreed, you cannot trust something that has the same ultimate goal as cancer. Endless infinite growth.
Meta has the best engineers in the world
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA…oh that’s rich. Do you actually believe this?
Who do you believe are the best engineers in the world and where do they work?
Eh. They have really good engineers. They just work for a POS company that does some bullshit
Good engineers and best in the world are not equal.
I don’t think this looks very good, but if we want a fighting chance, we can definitely do two things:
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We need to make using other instances of Lemmy and kbin extremely easy. Seamless. Two taps on your phone simple. Sign up with Google. All that jazz. Then the most basic user will have an easier time choosing a non-Threads instance.
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We need to, ironically I guess, advertise our LACK of advertisements. No matter how they do it, I’d bet anything Treads will integrate ads somehow, so this is a way we can quickly stand out.
On another note, users will want to go where the content lives. Of course, that makes this much more difficult. We all know Threads will be big, almost immediately. So, should we defederate with Threads like many of us are planning? This will keep us “safe” but we’ll lose all the new content. Or should we instead remain federated to keep seeing the content? Of course this doesn’t stop Threads from defederating from us themselves, so I truly don’t know the answer.
No matter what, I think we need to stand out to average social media users in a big way. I think my two points above are just a start, though. We need to offer more.
I don’t have high hopes, but I’m planning to fight like hell for our little paradise in any way I can.
Imo the fediverse should not try to compete with the big commercial networks on their terms. It will be much healthier when it grows slow and steady with people who want to be here because it is the fediverse. A place of freedom and lack of controlling evil players who will use your data to control your behavior (to get more ad revenue or worse, to make you act against your best interests, such as happened on facebook with Cambridge Analytica).
We’re not gonna win from big dollars and vested interests. Let’s not play their game. Let them play their game and let us be a safe haven for anyone who is done with being a pawn in that game.
The fediverse is already a really nice place to be. You don’t need 100s of millions of users to have the network effect that creates a successful platform. We’ve already reached that critical mass.
Threads already has over 30 million daily active users and growing fast - I’m tipping it will be over a billion in a year or two.
The fediverse has 2 million monthly active users. Sorry, but we’ve already lost the content battle. Like it or not, Threads is king king and Lemmy/Mastodon are ants.
Regarding “two taps and you’re signed up”… that’s just never going to happen. If anything, it probably needs to be a bit harder to sign up. We don’t want people using throwaway accounts.
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If you don’t federate with them, people will simply just go there instead of here because a larger user base.
i honestly prefer that. People can use two services and the fediverse won’t centralize. Win-Win. Don’t you think?
The fediverse not dying has yet to be proven.
Everyone on here keeps acting like they’re in a position of power and the fediverse is destined for success, but here’s the thing, it still sucks compared to the content that’s on Reddit and FB/IG, because there’s still a tiny fraction the number of users. The fediverse is only going to be the great place to have a conversation about stuff if people use it, and everyone rushing to cut off a massive source of funding / users / content while the fediverse is still trying to compete against Reddit et al seems like a huge mistake.
The fediverse will grow on it’s features and focus on transparency.
Growth by corporate funding, users and funding will make the entire thing centralized and it dies anyway.
Nobody will use lemmy.world if the “Threads app does the same thing but faster”.
Majority of the people unfortunately don’t care about privacy and transparency.
But at least we could interact with threads users from the safety of mastodon
Yeah there is more content on Reddit or FB/IG, but that doesn’t mean, that the content there is useful to users in the fediverse.
I think a great many users came to the Fediverse because they were not happy with their experience on FB, Reddit et al and were looking for something that is not that. Why should those users then be expected to recreate that model, or allow that content into this community? People here have already left those massive communities, and connections, and you speak like they lament that choice.
I just don’t like being tracked, unwelcome UI changes, censorship, etc. The content on Instagram and Reddit are fine.
The common pattern when onboarding into the Fediverse is:
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“I just left [poorly moderated place with too many people] because of [reason only tangentially relates to the denizens]”.
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“This place is a breath of fresh air! It feels like [the Internet at some previous reference time for the user that predated them being in spaces with too many people].”
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“Everyone should experience this! We need to get [the people who made the previous location a hell hole] here!”
I don’t care about the culture of this place. I just want everyone using decentralised platforms so we have more choice. You cannot live without certain platforms like Facebook because everyone you know uses it. If Facebook was on the fediverse you wouldn’t have that problem.
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Luckily, they can’t force federated access to be slow. Once you federate with them, their content is copied to your instance. It’s not necessary for every fediverse user to contact Threads, it’ll just be served from each user’s home instance
