Sorry if this is not the proper community for this question. Please let me know if I should post this question elsewhere.
So like, I’m not trying to be hyperbolic or jump on some conspiracy theory crap, but this seems like very troubling news to me. My entire life, I’ve been under the impression that no one is technically/officially above the law in the US, especially the president. I thought that was a hard consensus among Americans regardless of party. Now, SCOTUS just made the POTUS immune to criminal liability.
The president can personally violate any law without legal consequences. They also already have the ability to pardon anyone else for federal violations. The POTUS can literally threaten anyone now. They can assassinate anyone. They can order anyone to assassinate anyone, then pardon them. It may even grant complete immunity from state laws because if anyone tries to hold the POTUS accountable, then they can be assassinated too. This is some Putin-level dictator stuff.
I feel like this is unbelievable and acknowledge that I may be wayyy off. Am I misunderstanding something?? Do I need to calm down?
Disclaimer: someone calm me and op down.
I couldn’t believe that every post wasn’t about this ruling all day
No, you shouldn’t calm down, this decision is absolutely cataclysmic for the US should a dangerous person be elected or the ruling not overturned.
I’ve been saying the states are okay despite all SCOTUS’ stripping of civil rights and everything else wrong with that country because as long as there were checks and balances, voting had relevance.
With this ruling,I can’t see that it will continue to.
A president can order their political opponents murdered.
They can order that all civil rights be suspended indefinitely.
They can order a suspension or abolition of term limits.
They can abolish voting altogether in a hundred different ways and nothing can be legally done to halt that president from continuing to abolish voting until it sticks.
If anyone does manage to legally stop the president, the president can kill them or cut off their fingers and remove their voice box.
Literally anything is now legal, fair game.
Biden has spoken out against that kind of power and he has it right now, so VOTE for BIDEN to buy yourselves some time.
Whoever comes after this term or the next likely won’t have the same scruples.
This is far and away the most dangerous and harmful decision SCOTUS has ever made, which is saying a LOT.
It is the antithesis of the line in the Constitution explicitly stating that no elected official (like the president) has legal immunity.
The decision to grant an entire branch of the government absolute(it is absolute, anything can become “official”) legal immunity could very rapidly destroy the country as it is and turn it into a true authoritarian state within a week.
It takes some time to write, print and sign the executive orders or I’d say a day.
I have to read up on it more because I haven’t read or heard enough yet to convince me that this decision is not utterly catastrophic.
I’m shocked the dollar hasn’t collapsed, any further international faith in US stability is misplaced.
Antiquated.
Disclaimer: someone calm me and op down.
Nope. Too busy losing my goddamn shit over this insane, dictator-making, Enabling Act 2.0 garbage.
Article II, Section 3 - the president must take care to execute the laws faithfully. No president meeting the requirements of the office could issue an illegal official order. If the president orders something illegal, it’s necessarily against the oath of office and should not be considered official.
My feeling is that this ruling means any cases brought against the president would need to establish that an act was unofficial before criminal proceedings could proceed. Thay seems fine to me to adjudicate in each case.
The US President now has legal immunity from executing those laws faithfully.
Incorrect. Breaking the law is never an official act of the office, and therefore, cannot be protected.
I appreciate this response. It makes me feel a little better. I still think we should be concerned about SCOTUS probably getting to make some of these decisions of what’s official or not. Seems more corrupt on the judicial branch side of things rather than executive. Overall not great.
I mean, it’s definitely not great. This court is a sham that never should have had this makeup.
And this absolutely makes it harder to bring Trump to trial before the election.
This is not great.
But it is not “the president can assasinate people!!!”
At least, not to this layman. I would hope supreme court justices know better, but even the dissent seems a little unhinged to me, a progressive who thinks the rule of law should AND STILL DOES apply to everyone. (I am also not willing to just give up and say “yeah, guess assassination is legal now” - I think that junk is counterproductive and maybe being propagandized against us by unfriendly foreign governments.)
The president absolutely can assassinate people according to this. They can have someone picked up on any charge (execution of laws and giving orders to the military are part of their “official acts”), taken to a federal facility, and executed (espionage, national defense, exigent circumstances, whatever), then pardon everyone involved, and no evidence could even be brought up because it is all tied to an official act and investigating it would be impossible because any evidence tied to the official act is prohibited (giving orders to the military, directing federal law enforcement) and the investigation would burden the president’s ability to execute their core responsibilities.
I’m not reading this. Your first sentence is incorrect.
Bull. The president giving orders to the military is a core responsibility, and he has full immunity in that regard. That plus a pardon for the military members involved means he can have anyone assassinated and nobody would face consequences. Period.
Legal orders. The president is bound by Article II, Section 3.
You are not considering the part where we can’t use relevant testimony or documents to prove that what the President does is illegal in the first place. The President can just say whatever illegal things they did were official acts, and all the evidence that might prove otherwise is off-limits. It relies on other people in the administration to not follow the illegal order, but of course that is a weak protection and the President can fire them or do something illegal to them without consequence too.
If you follow an illegal order, guess what you just did: broke the law.
Please, fhis strident unreality being pushed is JUST LIKE the fear mongering on the right.
This decision is by no means great, it may totally delay trials for Trump until after the election, that’s horeshit in my opinion. But I also don’t beleive this bullshit about this ruling making the president a king. Stop FUDing for them. Trump STILL HAS TO FOLLOW THE LAW IF HE IS ELECTED. Please STOP REINFORCING THE IDEA THAT HE DOES NOT.
How can you have immunity from following the law? The only immunity is from breaking it; any law broken in a president’s effort to execute their core official acts cannot be prosecuted or even investigated, according to this decision.
Did you even read Sotomayor’ dissent? I did.
Yes, and I sadly had to agree with John Roberts, not a good place to be.
The doomerism is just ridiculous to me.
Unfortunately I think you’re missing something here. The court ruled that the president has immunity. Like the kind of immunity diplomats get in foreign countries that enables them to run over people in their cars. Immunity as a concept only makes sense if the action performed is actually illegal. Nobody can be prosecuted for legal actions. The president is now unprosecutable for both legal AND illegal actions.
It’s a nonsensical and horrifying ruling. The fact that the president would be violating his oath of office doesn’t cancel out the immunity, it just makes the crime that much more disgusting, and the impossibility of justice that much more galling.
Please back this up with some quotes from the ruling or something because this is not how I read it.
The reason the president is immune for official acts is to protect people like Obama who ordered extrajudicial killings of American citizens. That is a very grey offical act - these were US citizens in a war zone fighting for the other side. I may not fully agree that that should be protected, but I understand the reasoning around a president feeling free to act (legally) in the best interests of the nation without fear that their actions would lead to legal jeopardy after they leave office.
(To be clear: I would be ok with a trial to decide if Obama’s actions were official, for instance. And if they were deemed not, then he could be tried for those assassinations. Also, to be clear: I am a progressive who would vote for Obama over Trump in a heartbeat.)
It’s all over the Syllabus section, but here’s a specific quote:
Personally I am ok with courts not being able to deem something unofficial based on allegations rather than on a decision.
So how do they prosecute then? If the president commits a crime, let’s say he accepts a bribe for a pardon, you aren’t allowed to bring a prosecution unless a court deems the act unofficial. And the court isn’t permitted to find that the act was unofficial because the bribery is merely an allegation and hasn’t been proved. And you can’t prove the allegation because you can’t prosecute a president for official acts.
The trial court is supposed to determine if there is sufficient evidence such that is not a mere allegation?
It is extremely concerning. We no longer have three separate branches of government acting as a system of checks and balances.
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Especially with Project 2025 (day one after the election of the next GOP candidate). The executive branch will no longer be controllable by the other two branches. Also, Schedule F will allow all “policy-related” government workers to be rescheduled as fireable employees, allowing the Prez to install loyalists throughout the entire government. It’s definitely time to freak the fuck out.
Anyone who wants to see it https://www.project2025.org/
If you read the PDF that they gave it’s terrifying. Talking about applying to be a Loyalist and only they get federal appointments…and replacing real people in the government.
Let’s pretend to be loyalists and seed their administration with leftists from lemmy.
They have an interview process that combs over, not sure actually…
We know how good they are at combing-over.
Textbook step by step fascism.
He is only immune from acts that fall within his job description. If you want to criminally charge the president for one of his actions, you will have to convince a judge that the act was outside his job description.
SCOTUS didn’t grant his immunity requests. They sent the case back to the trial court and told them “make sure you specify that this action was outside the scope of his official duties before you make your ruling”.
That’s it. SCOTUS didn’t do him any favors.
Not from US, deeply concerned anyway.
No. Because they specifically said this is not the case.
The President enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the President does is official. The President is not above the law. But under our system of separated powers, the President may not be prosecuted for exercising his core constitutional powers, and he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for his official acts.
They’re essentially protecting a president from flagrant lawsuits that could be brought for unfounded accusations. The constitution outlines a handful of constitutional duties (such as pardoning) which are by definition the law not prosecutable. There’s a presumption of immunity for their official acts. Anything they do outside of official acts is not immune.
Nothing has really changed. It’s only made it more clear how difficult the process is to indict a president. The Fourth section of Article II still exists.
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
So, let’s say, not for the first time ever, a president orders an assassination and congress wants to hold them accountable for this action. It will need to be determined if this act was part of their official duties. The issue SCOTUS has presented is that it’s very, very difficult for congress to obtain the motivation for such an act. Such a case would be dependent on the specific circumstances. I mean, if the president orders the assassination of a foreign leader, no one’s going to, nor have the ever, question that. If they order the assassination of a congressional leader, don’t imagine they’re going to get away with that.
There is a group of individuals who are attempting to gain control of Congress who would allow a certain person, if elected president carte blanche to do anything as “an official act”. A good portion buys the line that this former president declassified documents just by thinking so.
There is another set of 5 or 6 individuals that have happily shown they will prioritize their own beliefs and views over judicial principles their country had maintained over the last couple centuries.
We have already seen Congress try to hold a criminal President to account. It hasn’t worked yet and these rulings make it even less likely to.
They’re essentially protecting a president from flagrant lawsuits that could be brought for unfounded accusations.
Usually i see strawmen making things sound worse than they are, but this is the complete opposite. Lawsuits is strawman, unfounded is strawman, accusations is strawman. This is for criminal cases, not civil, its actual prosecution, not accusations, and no requirement that they be unfounded for this immunity to apply. You are trying extremely hard to downplay this and cant have good intentions for this. Other justices have already claimed this includes political assassinations, and Trumps own legal team has already made the argument assassinating a political opponent can be an official act as president.
Why do you imagine that a President wouldn’t get away with assassination of a Congressional leader? Say, for example, that Pres. Trump tells special ops forces that he has ironclad intelligence that Rep. Hakim Jeffries is a Chinese agent orchestrating an imminent attack on the U.S., and orders him killed on an overseas trip. That’s a legal order from the commander in chief, on the face of it. (I mean, the track record of the military refusing orders is extremely thin on the ground, and it won’t really matter if they install loyalists like Project 2025 calls for.) We’ve already established the precedent that the President has immense discretion to handle immediate threats.
And maybe it was a lie, but that’s irrelevant. He has absolute immunity in the exercise of his Article 2 duties. End of story. The only possible remedy is impeachment, and, well, who’s going to do that?
Trump was president for four years, enjoyed all of this immunity already, and not one politician was murdered. Pretty sure we’ll be alright.
Not one politician was murdered, but funny story about January 6, 2021…
The president already was protected from all civil lawsuits due to previous rulings. This ruling was only about criminal prosecutions.
He has absolute immunity for any use, for any reason, of his core presidential powers include anything listed in article 2 (the military, pardons, firing or hiring officials within the executive department). There is no determining if those are an official act or not. Anything the president does with an article 2 power is an official act with absolute immunity now. Motives or reason for using that power or the outcome of that cannot be questioned. It is legal for the president to accept a bribe to pardon someone right now. The fact that it happened couldn’t even be mentioned in court.
Only when the president is doing something not listed in the constitution can it be determined if it’s an official or unofficial act by the courts and should be immune. And again it’s the action, not the motive or the result or purpose of the action, that determines whether it is official. The only example they gave was talking to justice department officials is official. So if he is talking to justice department officials to arrange a bribe or plan a coup? Legal, immune, can’t even be used as evidence against him. It doesn’t matter why he was talking to the justice department, the fact that he was makes him immune from any laws he breaks in the process of doing so. They aren’t determining if a bribe or coup is an official act, they’re determining if talking to justice department officials in general is. It doesn’t matter what he’s actually doing it for, arranging a coup? That’s perfectly okay. Oh someone found out, pardon everyone else involved in the conspiracy who wasn’t already immune. Now it can’t even be brought up in court.
In the example you gave of ordering an assassination, if it used the military to do the assassination that is a core power, cannot be questioned. The supreme court ruling placed no limits on what can be done with his article 2 powers. Only a nebulous official vs not official test for things not listed in article 2. There’s also a very worrying core power in article 2 about “ensuring laws are faithfully executed” that even Barrett thought was too much in her concurrence as it could apply to seemingly anything. Basically, as long as the president is using the levers of government to commit crimes, legal now.
Impeachment is the only recourse now as you say, but even if impeached and removed from office by some miracle, they still wouldn’t be able to be held criminally liable afterwards for that.
Everyone panicking in this thread is right to do so.
Dude, this is straight terrifying.
Despite the alarm, it’s nothing new though. International diplomats cite immunity to prosecution to get out of paying for speeding tickets on a daily basis.
This may not be new for other countries, but this is absolutely new to the US and a huge alarm.
International diplomats don’t often get immunity for treason.
No, but a president is higher in status than a diplomat, who in the US don’t have to face minor consequences either. I’m not saying this to support presidents being immune to the law (in fact, you could say it goes against campaign promises to claim you’ll be a civil governor and then be authoritarian), I’m just saying this has been on the drawing board for a while and was far from something that was just recently whipped out. Even state governors (and mayors as well) have gotten away with some awful things by swerving the powers that be, the governor of New York a few years ago systemically killed the elderly during covid and the main concern was not that but his affairs like was the case with Bill Clinton.
The argument I saw for this was that a president shouldn’t have to second guess every action they take while in office. That if they are held liable for everything they do, they may be paralyzed to make changes to the government.
I kinda thought that was kinda what the founders wanted to happen…
Yes.
This is a fuckin five alarm fire. It’s time to leave the building. Don’t grab your shit, don’t put your shoes on first, fuckin worry about your safety first and foremost because this is an emergency.
I don’t know what to do, to be honest. I feel like if you just went to DC near the physical location of the Supreme Court at any point in the next week you would see at least a decent number of people carrying signs and yelling. I thought about traveling there and finding them and talking to them about who they’re with and how I can join. I don’t know that that will solve the problem, but I think it would probably put you in touch with people who are at least doing fuckin something about it.
It will be good to have allies, learn what people are trying to do, maybe some of it will be productive, and then if the real bad shit starts roughly one year from now, at least you have some allies in place. But yes. It’s a fuckin emergency. It’s real, real bad.
Socialist Rifle Association wouldn’t be a bad place to start if you’re not in Trumpland like me.
Buy ammo now. Prices and supply are going to be nuts very soon.
After I posted earlier tonight I looked at my options online and talked to a couple people about getting a hardy AK. Will definitely get plenty of 7.62
Yes I’m terrified! Honestly I’m thinking about moving to Vietnam. One it’s socialist and check with my username I’m into that lol. Also like America is the world hegemon if it starts going after everybody or World War 3 breaks out I can’t think of a safer place to be the Vietnam.
This may seem dramatic and hopefully it is but I don’t think it is. Democrats won’t use this power it or actually curtail it and as soon as another republican wins office this country will go full mask off fascist so fast. Honestly the mask might be off now. This frogs been boiled so long she’s not sure if she’s dead yet.
I feel like if Trump wins the election, my trans ass is going to end up in a concentration camp. Kinda hope I die before that happens.
Mhm as a Canadian, the entire last week of SCOTUS rulings spells doom for your country if the people of the US allow Trump and any other federal Republican to attain power again. Lots of cause to be alarmed.
Roe v Wade from before this week was absolutely terrible. Snyder v Grants Pass was downright awful, Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo is going to have awful consequences for years to come. Trump v. USA to me is the cherry on top of this shit ruling sundae.
The best thing you can do is disseminate each of these rulings, and why they are bad to every person you know. The message for Roe is clear, as most non-crazies would rather have state governments not mess with the business in your genitals. Try and figure out a good way to explain each of the others as they are just as horrible.
As Canadians, this should alarm us as well. The U.S is our biggest trading partner, we share the largest land border in the world, our political climate is directly impacted by what goes on to the south, and we have our own growing alt-right movement which the CP is pandering to - taking direct inspiration, if not outright manipulation, from the same elements at play in the U.S.
We are not immune to any of this. The deeper the U.S. gets into the shit, the more dire the implications for Canadians become. If Project 2025 comes to be, and our government doesn’t play ball with their approach to international relations, we’re fucked. If we DO play ball, we’re probably also fucked in different ways.
Yes, duh.
we’ve discovered the corruption of the Supreme Court and they’re getting as much done as they can before anybody tries to do anything about it. it’s literally going to take amendments to the Constitution to fix this shit I think, and the people with the money to fund the politicians have no reason to push for it
Isn’t that part of the plan for the GOP’s Project 2025?
Forget amendments, this is gonna take a whole new document.
I’m not American and so am not in touch with American politics, but I have an American friend who doesn’t seem to be bothered by it. I assume he knows better than me, so I’m trying not to worry about it.
But if I were to worry about it, I can see the whole Trump situation leading to another civil war for you guys…
