My original question was “How do we disincentivize the purchase of pickup trucks/SUVs” but then I thought it would be better to approach the larger problem of car dependency and car ownership. One option is, of course, to create public transit infrastructure and improve it where it already exist. This, however, doesn’t change the fact that some will still choose to drive. What would be the best ways to discourage people from owning personal cars?
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This is why a culture war is forming between bikers and drivers.
It’s not just reallocation of resources, you are actively plotting to disrupt a means of income, safety, or accessibility for the majority.
Biking and public transit are very valid modes of transportation and for some journeys, practical. News flash, I use them too. The same goes for vehicles.
What isn’t necessary for you, may be for someone else. That’s a fact lots of folks here don’t want to acknowledge.
So to answer your question, make something better, faster, cheaper than cars and people will come. But if your recipe for success is making a working system suck bad enough public transport looks good, everybody loses.
I don’t have a massive truck and my 20yo Honda is no status symbol, but I love the act of driving and the skills I’ve developed over my lifetime. It’s freeing, relaxing, and I find a meditative quality and peace when I drive in the mountains. You want to take that away. Now imagine if bikes were taxed and licensed… Not so fun now.
We have to work together in a community. I’m tired of fractions picking fights.
You want to discourage people from buying cars? Then don’t buy one. Be the example you seek. But for heavens sake, don’t be a jerk to others.
the word here is sprawl. The vehicles actually don’t matter as much as the parking. The more space dedicated to parking the harder it is for people realistically walk to any destination.
We need more than anything to end parking minimums’ which create large, poorly utilized space with high stormwater runoff and think about putting in parking maximums
I love the act of driving and the skills I’ve developed over my lifetime. It’s freeing, relaxing, and I find a meditative quality and peace when I drive in the mountains.
I like walking in nature but in my country you can’t escape the sound of distant cars. I’m sure it’s not you, you’re definitely the exception and a model citizen, but your hobby is giving me tinnitus and is infringing upon mine. It’s not a culture war, it’s just shit that’s bad for us all vs shit that’s not bad for us all and you really like doing the shit that’s bad for us all so you have this strange cognitive dissonance about it where you can totally admit it’s bad but refuse to stop doing it.
You want to discourage people from buying cars? Then don’t buy one. Be the example you seek.
I’ve never owned a car in my life and I don’t have a license but this hasn’t stopped any of these people from being average car owners…
- https://drkt.eu/library/OnTheRoad/just-park-whereever-you-want.mp4
- https://drkt.eu/library/OnTheRoad/too-important-for-red-lights.mp4
- https://drkt.eu/library/OnTheRoad/PXL_20240607_113331267.jpg
- https://drkt.eu/library/OnTheRoad/PXL_20240604_201902665.jpg
- https://drkt.eu/library/OnTheRoad/PXL_20240426_191945157.jpg
your hobby is giving me tinnitus and is infringing upon mine
Ha! Not a chance. My car is totally stock and doesn’t produce anywhere near the levels of sound pressure to damage hearing. Not even close, dude.
And I have my dashcam videos of bicycles behaving badly too.
Tinnitus is affected by constant exposure, not just dB. Cars make noise and a constant low droning sound gives you tinnitus as well.
I, too, have videos of bicycles behaving poorly. Again, cognitive dissonance; we are not discussing bicycles.
As a former sound engineer, I am well aware of the dangers of volume and exposure limits.
If a liesurly drive way in the mountains gives you hearing damage, your bigger concern is why you’re being dragged behind a car.
As a current employee of the municipal road maintenance and service depot, I’d like to think we have more relevant data than a sound engineer on the harm caused by road noise.
https://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/road-traffic-remains-biggest-source
You are correct and the thousands of scientists who have come to this same conclusion are wrong, totally bro
You’re arguing here for continuing to prop up sprawl, is what it sounds like. You’re open to moving people away from car dependency, but not from suburbs, is my impression. I would love to be wrong about this, so please feel free to assure me you’re not proposing that people just live wherever the hell they want, no matter how unsustainable it might be.
There are times and places for high density cities, and there are times and places for rural living. There is no one-size-fits-all approach here.
Today, I made a makeshift bahn mi burger for dinner. I snagged a French roll and a carrot from the store. I bbq’d a steak burger with Vietnamese marinade and added cucumber, Thai basil, mint, and cilantro that I grew in my garden. Also slapped together a quick salad with tomatoes, peas, and more cucumber also from my garden.
My hobbies are hiking, camping, and backpacking. Right now, I am sitting under two absolutely massive 10’ sunflowers watching my pet turtle bury a clutch of eggs.
You have this impression I’m somesort of eco-terrorist because I like to drive. I know sustainable, I love to grow my own food, I’m aware of my footprint.
But I am all for sprawl and not because I drive. I rent so this will all go away someday because I can’t afford to buy a $1.2 million 2-bedroom starter home or a high density concrete box.
So yeah, my choices are the fringes. Public transport (and bicycling) are going to be sketchy.
My job up until last year was home repair (not going to get too specific because this is the internet) and I did need a truck full of tools. That was my employment; my income.
Changing city policies harmed blue collar workers like me making it difficult to travel between worksites. Every major road to my residence has engineered in congestion as a means of traffic control whether it was appropriate or not. Time is money and being unable to fill one or two appointments daily due to lost time was devastating.
I have a local public transit card I use. It’s great for going to popular destinations like sports, restaurants, and zoos. It is not great to visit friends and family. For that, I use a car (plus I almost always have a passenger) and save money and time.
There is no one-size-fits-all approach here.
Exactly. Yet the entirety of humanity has congregated around the car as if that is that one-size-fits-all solution you’re admitting doesn’t exist.
You know, back before the car, humanity congregated around ports and railroad stations too, right? It’s kinda human nature.
as somebody who does some of this work: roads are expensive and environmentally damaging. The fact road costs are so effectively hidden from drivers is one of the great frustrations about communication on the subject.
Without oodles and oodles of public grants and funds there would be almost no roads. The reality here is that consumers don’t make the decision to have roads and cars, the government does. End of discussion.
Right, and we built tracks out to every building anyone might conceivably want to visit.
Wait, no we didn’t. The popularity of the car in some countries is VERY artificial. Driven by early auto-industry advertising that solidified into culture.
But it didn’t take hold world-wide.
There’s a train station in Tokyo through which the entire population of my country passes DAILY.
A design for a highway interchange that can get 5 million people where they need to go within less than 24 hours, does not exist.
Gotta apologize on my previous comment. I think I misread what you said. My reply doesn’t really make sense anymore now that I re-read the context.
I respect the hell out of that!
The car, when used for all transport, is wildly inefficient. Multimodal transport where whatever mode is most efficient is used, isn’t applied enough.
You like driving. If the goal is to enjoy the pleasure of driving, then no other option serves that purpose. Hence, driving is what YOU should be doing.
But cars are used to achieve so many other goals that do have more efficient options, simply because it is the existing standard.
There are people who VEHEMENTLY HATE commuting by car. They shouldn’t be driving, but doing so might still be the least offensive option. Providing these people a way not to drive, also fits the description of “discouraging” car ownership.
Cultural knee-jerk reactions like yours, as well as the barrier of existing infrastructure, make improvement difficult. OP is specifically asking how to change things in a way that would make people want the change, rather than have it be forced on them.
They didn’t ask how to stop people from owning cars. Discourage means discourage. If you’ll never sell your car no matter what, that means you’re one of the people who can’t be discouraged, but that doesn’t mean people who can, and even should be, don’t exist.
You admit to using transit systems, when applicable, which means you’re already accepting the solution. Would it really be so bad if you could use transit to get more places, and more people could use it for all their needs, even if you aren’t one of them?
It’s freeing, relaxing, and I find a meditative quality and peace when I drive in the mountains. You want to take that away.
We literally don’t. No-one is out to stop you from driving as a hobby.
We’re specifically out to make that the only reason anyone needs to drive.
What would be the best ways to discourage people from owning personal cars?
We literally don’t. No-one is out to stop you from driving as a hobby.
Um, yes?
No.
discourage ≠ stop
In the same way that “discouraging” someone from over-eating for their own health, doesn’t mean starving them to death.
As a society, we get places with, and design entire cities for, cars. A lot of people who wouldn’t mind either way, own a car simply because “it’s just what everyone does”.
Suburbia and personal vehicles aren’t sustainable, because suburban infrastructure literally cannot pay for itself. It’s built on subsidies, and then maintained by subsidies, except countries like the US are finding that now that most people live in suburbs, there aren’t enough profitable urban areas to take those subsidies from.
Car ownership has to be reduced. So how do we achieve that? How can we change things so that FEWER (not none) people want or need cars?
As a bonus, that means the remaining people who HAVE to drive get to do so on more open roads than ever.
“Discourage from ownership” sort of means stop. It’s hard to drive what I don’t own.
And talking subsidies, my city burns through $150 million annually to build out 400+ miles of bike lanes that 3% of the population use. (Actual stats published by the city)
People like me who had to drive may have open roads again, but understand when you try to pinch casual drivers, you got us too. And a lot of us are hurting really bad. I have friends in flooring, windows, and electrical. 2 have retired, one is accepting they will have to work until they die. It’s harsh on this side, getting worse, and no one is talking about it.
This policy can’t reduce casual vehicle use without harming workers.
It’s hard to drive what I don’t own.
How does your neighbor no longer needing a vehicle, stop you from owning one you do need?
And talking subsidies, my city burns through $150 million annually to build out 400+ miles of bike lanes that 3% of the population use. (Actual stats published by the city)
Car infrastructure is measured in billions. Infrastructure that is used by 100% of the population can still be less cost-effective, if its costs are great enough. Spending 100 billion so that everyone can drive makes no sense if everyone as a whole can only afford 80 billion.
Diverting at least some resources then, so that at least some people can get where they need to go for less, only makes sense.
At least part of the problem is cultural momentum. Even as more cost-effective ways to get around are built out, people will continue to drive because it is what they are used to. The benefits of shifting transport systems also have a severe lag time because a complete transit system is built over decades, not months.
150 million a year is nothing, no shit it’s only useful to 3%. That number only reaches the nineties of cities like Amsterdam when you’ve been doing it for generations. The same was and is true for cars.
but understand when you try to pinch casual drivers, you got us too
Not in my city. Getting around in a car is better than ever. In fact, getting around using every possible mode of transport available is better than ever.
This policy can’t reduce casual vehicle use without harming workers.
Then it’s bad policy, and your local planners don’t know how to change things efficiently. But the cities where it works for everyone LITERALLY EXIST. I live in one.
It is extremely easy for planners to spend money on half-measures that only make things worse, as is happening all over, but that isn’t a reason to stick with something the math proves is broken.
The differences between car use between countries is a clear indication that it’s not just about necessity or consumer preferences. Societies actively choose how to plan cities and traffic, and doing the same thing as last year is not neutral.
Towns and cities should restructure more to a self sustainable way, so people don’t have to travel as far as often.
My personal example is that I live in a very bicycle friendly city, but at the same time we don’t have a bicycle shop anymore to buy tires and chains and shit…
We need a bike shop here!
With enough cycling investment, i could see denser areas having emergency bike shops along major routes. Offering fast repairs like a tire or chain during rush hours.
In Japan, car owners are responsible for ensuring they have somewhere to park. Municipalities don’t provide free on-street car storage, or even much in the way of paid parking, so if you really want a car, you’ll need to sacrifice some space to store it, or make other private arrangements at your own expense. You’ll need proof of this when you buy a car.
Singapore goes one step further, with car owners needing to purchase a licence for keeping a car (which is separate from a driver’s license). This costs about as much as the car itself. Though by some accounts, this has made having even a mediocre car into a status symbol.
I think you’re on to something. If we stopped providing free street parking in cities, in addition to removing the parking requirements for new buildings, the problem would slowly resolve itself. Unfortunately that would mean that residents currently benefiting from free street parking would have to vote to take away their own subsidy, so we’d have to find a way to make it worth it to them.
Where I live we don’t even have sidewalks on most roads, so that would be a start.
Honestly though? Great public transit. I really miss living somewhere that allowed me to be car free because the transit was pretty good. Not even great, but just pretty good. Something like Singapore public transit would be great.
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For me the only answer is good, fast, cheap public transit.
Gosh I took the railroad from Long Island, NY into NYC and back. Each way was about 40 min but the total cost was like $19 per person! If I was going with 3/4 friends, it could literally be cheaper and about as fast to drive into the city and pay for parking. It needs to be more subsidized.
Car driving also needs to be less subsidised.
Imho the best policy is to require a permanent parking space close to the main residence of the person owning the car. With permanent access I mean that the space is only to be used for the car and has to be either rented or owned by the person using it. This is rather easy to do in a rural setting, but much harder the more urban the area becomes.
The next part is making access worse for cars. Place parking further away from interesting destinations then bicycle parking and public transport access. Like having bicycle racks right next to the shop doors. That also includes just removing parking as much as possible. Besides handicap spots obviously. Also modal filters to block cars to move through certain streets, but allow bicycles and pedestrians to use those. That can also mean one directional roads.
Slow down cars as much as possible. When cars are as fast as bicycles, cars loose a massive advantage. This has to be done using built infrastructure and not just street signs, but those are an important start. So narrow roads, little viewing space and speed bumps. Also traffic lights are a good option. Give priority to other forms of transport(default green for pedestrians and bicycles for example).
the first point makes it sound like you either don’t want cities or you love vast amount of space being wasted. it would just be more reasons for developers to not build homes and new businesses, while also complete inflating parking lots everywhere.
instead, scrap the bit in zoning laws where businesses have to allocate space and funds for parking lots in their designs. denser setting incentivizes walking or biking. in line with this, make mixed use development more apparent-- shops on bottom floor with apartments on top. capitalism will say to developers that they could fit another 2 or 3 stores in a lot that was previously going to be dedicated to parking
reduce the number of road lanes and make them narrower in cities while opting for curb-raised and separated bike paths. ditch the grid based road map for a more natural one. the visual clutter on and around the road will make drivers go slow. ensure there is proper daylighting for points of conflict. get large trucks back onto rural roads, and incentivize, both to consumers and corporations, a return of small vehicles. we should be able to find a happy medium where if you need a car, be it for hauling furniture or going on a camping trip, it should still be convenient enough to do so.
let there be a priority bus or emergency vehicle lane in the center of the road. that way busses and emergency vehicles don’t get stuck behind any car traffic
to developers that they could fit another 2 or 3 stores in a lot that was previously going to be dedicated to parking
That is exactly my point. Underground parking adds 35-50% to a mid rise building construction cost. That means people have the choice between larger or cheaper units without a parking spot and more expensive ones with a parking spot. Even with underground parking mid rise buildings are already cheaper then single family housing. Especially ifthe area we are talking about has high land prices, like pretty much every city.
don’t discourage people from owning personal cars. most of the time this mentality is just a tax on the poor.
Flip the idea. Encourage people to not use cars instead.
- not just bike lanes, but bike storage & lockers
- not just public transport, but better connections between transport modes (buses with bike carriers, train stations with better car parking and bike lockers and bus connections)
- more small car parking bays with all large truck bays further away from the stores
- more motorcycle parking bays
- cheaper motorcycle registration, etc.
it’s all about spending money and effort in the areas you want it. Not about being restrictive.
it’s a slower method of conversion, but more effective.
Anti-tobacco campaigns proved to be very useful. Anti-car campaigns could be equally useful. Won’t happen in the EU sadly because Germany relies too much on automotive industry.
well, sure, because that’s just because vaping didn’t exist then. Once vaping became a thing, soooo many people switched over from smoking to vaping.
I wasn’t being sarcastic, anti-tobacco campaigns and regulations were very effective
People are in engrained car habits. That’s why alternatives to driving are important, but people are unlikely to switch unless we ALSO make driving less appealing
The solution seems to be, build those public transit options first. Let people get used to them, know they exist, etc. even if they’re not massively used, their presence makes implementing some kind of penalty for driving WAY more likely to work - there’s already an alternative in place, we don’t have to worry about what we’re gonna do now, were just gonna take the bus.
I totally understand why you say this. But at the same time:
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Be a politician
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Do the right thing and invest billions in an amazing public transport system knowing it won’t be used properly until much later
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Lose your job for wasting billions on a system nobody uses. Ensure that every other politician in the world cannot henceforth invest in public transport because “Look what happened when that other guy tried it”.
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There is no Step 4
This is why I propose moving in sloooooow steps. One or two small changes at a time, and eventually we’ve “snuck” some stuff by and moved in the right direction.
The way I look at it, it’s as likely to happen if we do it right as if we do it wrong. Either we’re going to get rid of cars, or we’re not. I’d rather make steps towards doing it right.
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address how this stance of yours isn’t just a tax on poor people and how it isn’t ableist.
You have to do both I’m afraid
no, you really, absolutely don’t.
more importantly, you missed the part where being anti-car is just a tax on poor people. It’s also ableist. We still need cars, and punishing people who need them isn’t helpful.
“poor people, like people on disability payments, shouldn’t be able to afford to drive, but rich people can do whatever they want” is a horrible dystopia.
I agree with you, it’s not fair, but afaik the research and data shows that in order to get people to use their cars less there has to be more downsides to using it as well as easier alternative transportation.
Otherwise people will just keep driving
You can own your car and drive it from time to time, ideally not in the city. Those aren’t what we want to discourage. Discourage driving daily, driving in the city. Make those things simply easier, faster, and cheaper to do than using a car, and, while it won’t KILL cars completely, it’ll reduce them enough to make a noticeable difference.
After that’s successful, and the working class hasn’t completely shit themselves, we can start with making cars less desirable than they are right now. Once only the enthusiasts and most stubborn own a car, we can add some kinds of taxes, so that at the end, we’re left with only the enthusiasts, which I think is a perfectly reasonable goal.
Yes, but you must also do things like add tolls, rush surcharges, etc to actually get the car usage down.
Simply making the alternative better alone won’t make the majority drop the comfort of their own car because it will never be as good as driving yourself.
Pretty sure my second paragraph, starting with the word “after” (that word does a LOT of lifting) addresses that aspect.
It usually happens at the same time, you increase cost. Then you use that cost directly to build and maintain the public infrastructure required.
no, you don’t. that’s all a poor tax, again.
and remember: most of the people who need cars (for mobility reasons) are among the poorest.
So taxing people through tolls and such is just punishing the disabled. ie ableist.
You do if you actually want the traffic to go down and you want to afford the public transportation infrastructure that will be required.
Make everyone use bikes
RIP people with busted knees I guess
No-one who seriously considers the issue thinks all cars should be done away with.
Cities designed for pedestrians can still be made to accommodate accessibility vehicles, and even more importantly, emergency vehicles.
except there are a lot of people who don’t seriously consider the issue here (online in general).
There are ebikes that don’t require pedaling, even some that are more like tiny cars with a roof and doors, etc.
I view it as sidelining cars to improve public transportation.
- First thing is to eliminate and revise public zoning laws and removing parking minimums. This causes change the slowest but is the most important to start since it will lead to denser population centers, and parking garages can be closer to residence.
- Second move I think is to eliminate extra lanes and trim road widths. This leads to driving being something that takes more focus and is slower. This also frees space for bike lanes and even dedicated bus lanes.
- Slowly phase out free parking across the city. Start with spots directly next to crosswalks so that there is better visibility of pedestrians crossing. Then focus on bus routes to free a dedicated lane when possible. This discourages driving since there’s fewer chances you’ll be able to park close to the place you are going.
- While this is occurring, you should be introducing public transit as it becomes feasible. More buses or trams, guarded bike lanes, etc.
- MAINTAIN YOUR PUBLIC TRANSIT!! As trains and buses fall into disrepair the number of people willing to ride it will drop off. Also keep the bike lanes and sidewalks clear and smooth.
That’s what I’ve got. It takes decades to break down this infrastructure for new stuff. You also need the to be having accessibility in mind whenever you are thinking about installing public amenities or removing infrastructure.
Public transportation should be provided for the public by the public. Quit wasting time with ticket booths and all that shit. Just free transportation. We aren’t charged per use for roads so people drive. Make public transport free so transportation is equally accessible by all social classes.
Even with cheap fares now, moving a family is still more expensive by bus than vehicle. I don’t drive for my sake. I drive for the others that need me to drive for them.
Well there are fees in registration, and gas, but it isn’t enough.
If we want people to switch, time and money are the best motivators to broadly apply. Making transit both faster and cheaper than a car (or free) will increase ridership and decrease car usage.
No disagreement. Was just clarifying misinformation.
I remember a study from Denmark that pointed towards convenience dwarfing every other reason (including cost) for choice of transport.
Basically people took bikes rather than cars because it was quicker and easier to take the bike. In places where cars where more convenient, people would drive, even if it was outrageously expensive.
Very few people were driven by health/environmental benefits, cost, fun, etc
Not to say that you’re wrong, but driving does cost money in the form of registration, excise tax, gas taxes, and inspection. It’s still heavily subsidized, but drivers don’t pay nothing to use the roads
Many of those are fixed costs. That means that if you use the car more, it becomes more worth it.
Instead of making cars more expensive, we should make public transport cheaper. And it should also reach outside of cities.
If you want to go outside of a city for whatever reason (maybe you even live outside a city!) the options for public transport are very few, very expensive, and very time consuming.
The one tied to increased use is linked, not fixed.
Long ago my city made all public transit free on spare the air days. (Days where particulate concentrations were predicted to be high) I do miss those, they were actually kinda fun. I would like them to come back someday.
This is so backwards. They wait til the the air is already fucked up to provide the cleaner alternative. Wouldn’t it be better to always provide that then have less bad air days because less people are driving and spewing particulates?
It takes a really, really prolonged inversion later to trigger a spare the air day from just smog. That alone is fairly rare. Bigger culprates are BBQ’s and fireplaces. By far, the #1 trigger is wildfires. That was the first spare the air month I’ve experienced!
By making it a poor choice, which you do by providing a better alternative that is cheaper.
I’m firmly on the side of it being unreasonable to discourage driving until there is a reasonable alternative.
- There are a handful of us cities where there is enough of an alternative and they already make it expensive to have a car and getting more expensive all the time (see NYC proposed congestion fees, Boston record prices for a parking spot, Cambridge street restrictions)
- even then, there should be a better way to support people who think they need a car but don’t use it everyday. It shouldn’t need to be in everyone’s way
However for most of the US, that’s just alienating people who would be on our side if there was a choice
- Tax carbon (and equivalents)
- give back all carbon tax to all citizens, equally
- Increase tax linearly over time, and let folks and business plan their transition predictably.
This will incentivize people to demand affordable transportation, transition to alternatives, get low income citizens a reason to not oppose increased cost of living. Big consumers have to pay, low consumers will pay a little but get more back.
Check out Citizens Climate Lobby.
Now that EVs are a thing, taxing carbon may not do what you expect.
EVs still create a lot of co2 in production so I’d expect it would incentivize people to use and demand more efficient means of transportation. Trains, busses combined with incentives to do better city planning.
EVs aren’t silver bullets. Will still be cheaper to use an EV than a car running on gas.
By making it utterly unaffordable.
Fortunately electric cars are coming, and none of them are cheap.
The downside is you have to explain to an entire class why you no longer deem them worthy of owning a car.
That will depend a lot from city to city, and also person to person. Some people loathe public transportation, as they see it as something for “the poor”. Trading in cars for motorcycles, electric or combustion, is a good step forward, but would just lead to those ultra dense Indian cities.
What works best is not having places you want or need to go so fucking far: school, grocery store, workplace. For me, my job is 30km away from my home, but thankfully I can take a bus. Some people would take buses, but don’t, because of: 1- they’re overcrowded (because it’s more profitable); 2- there’s no direct lines that go to where the person wants to go (“low demand”, unprofitable); 3- they don’t run at the times the person needs (same as 2)
Another user mentions that many drives are less than a mile, for me that’s whenever I go buy groceries, as I don’t have a bike or anything to carry the bags, so putting them in the car works better.
