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I was at the end of school during the 2016 election and my closest friend in my Comp-Sci class who I’d known from 11 was in the far right pipeline; this person found Hillary absolute abhorrent, loved trump and was generally the 2016 Pepe style crypto-facist. We live in the UK too, so this is even less common than it probably was in the USA.
When school ended, I stopped speaking to this person, but a few years ago saw that she’s come out as a trans woman. I’m happy for her and not really keen to reconnect at all, but oh boy am I nosy about the timeline of her political views. I wonder if she still holds them, was struggling with internalised issues or just had a huge realisation at some point.
Liberal tolerance is such a defacto default that people who would be hard done by a white christofascist America end up signing up for it because they assume it will include the same rights and freedoms they currently enjoy.
Also every trans Trumper believes they will be the token accepted trans person in the far-right. Same as some Jews cosied up to the Nazis to extract personal privilege at the expense of snitching on their own people only to end up at the exact same end-game anyways.
Wow. I would be nosy too. :-D
I’m in an identical situation as you (also from the UK funnily enough), except I did keep in contact with her, albeit at arm’s length at first. She’s explained to me over the years that it was internalised hatred, made worse by her family’s very outspoken views about anyone not straight and white.
When she finally had a chance to get away and start thinking things through herself, she began to accept herself and others. She’s a lovely person to be around now, and pretty vocal in trying to help other people learn about and understand trans healthcare and mental support. But most importantly, she’s happy.
I’d hope we were talking about the same person and it’s a small world but I think people who are targeted by extreme right views is sadly just probably common.
That was really wholesome to read!
anecdotally: t-female-presenting people tend to have conservative views; so there’s a good chance your friends views haven’t changed much.
Idk what trans women you have met but conservative views are extremely unpopular in the entirety of the transgender community. Being alt-right would get you entirely ostracized and barred from accessing most trans communities and spaces. Queer people are significantly less likely to be conservative than cisgender heterosexual people.
I also have no clue why you describe trans women that way. “t-female-presenting people”. You can just call us trans women, or transfeminine people if you’re including feminine non-binary people as well.
Idk what trans women you have met but conservative views are extremely unpopular in the entirety of the transgender community.
i’ve had the opposite experience from living 15 years in the san francisco bay area.
Queer people are significantly less likely to be conservative than cisgender heterosexual people.
lgbtqa+ as a whole yes; but less so from the “t” part
I also have no clue why you describe trans women that way. “t-female-presenting people”. You can just call us trans women, or transfeminine people if you’re including feminine non-binary people as well.
i was corrected several times in the past when i said trans women or trans girl from trans-female-presenting people.
What are you on about 😭
I think this is more of a reflection of the circles you have been in, than the trans community at large. I have never seen a trans person wanting to be called “trans-female-presenting”. That’s some shit that conservatives say, a roundabout way of denying the identity.
That’s some shit that conservatives say, a roundabout way of denying the identity.
i said the something similar and i was repeatedly assured that it was right; the fragmentation of between generations that don’t use social media and those who do seem clearly pronounced.
I think the generational thing here is whats getting people. I’m friends with an older trans woman, and she’s reffered to herself as a shemale before, which’d be a big fuckin yikes if anyone but her used that term now, she’s also religious and and leans right politically (but is starting to not because of how insane the right is getting)
edit: Changed Oof to Yikes
yeah, it’s less “yikes” in spanish than it is in english.
Trans women or trans feminine people is fine. The other way you’ve been seemingly corrected towards is reminiscent of “TIM” and “TIF” which are two transphobic terms meant to invalidate trans people.
Your little “less so from the T part” belies something of your beliefs here. You also, again, have no clue what you’re talking about. Living in a particular area does not instill in you broad understandings of the sociopolitical beliefs of some demographic. Just that the people you’ve met in that area have, in your perception, been more likely to hold those views.
Does not pan out in reality. I have a feeling I know how you’re going to respond to this. I’d love to see you prove that inkling wrong.
i’ve also heard trans feminine before; but i was slapped for using trans women
You also, again, have no clue what you’re talking about. Living in a particular area does not instill in you broad understandings of the sociopolitical beliefs of some demographic.
Does not pan out in reality. I have a feeling I know how you’re going to respond to this. I’d love to see you prove that inkling wrong.
the pot calling the kettle black takes on new meaning when you take such an aggressive position against someone who is part of the same community and also when you do as i did and let your experience inform your opinion.
I’ve since moved to a very left wing city and I’ve met a lot of trans women. Most have strong political views for sure, but those views are very far left wing too.
i moved away from new york in 2009 san francisco in 2019 and have lived in austin and chicago since then; this exchange is teaching me that chicago, austin and the lemmyverse trans communities are more alike then any of them are to new york or san francisco.
It’s interesting to me that your experience is so vastly different from mine given we live in the same area (SF bay area). Most trans people I know, including myself, fall on the far left, and at significantly higher rates than the cis people I know (Queer or not). I’ve also never heard the term “t-female-presenting” before, it is completely foreign to me. I mostly hear and use “trans women” or “transfeminine”.
I wonder if there’s another demographic factor, or you are in a unique community of trans people. The people in my circle are generally 20-35, nonreligious, working class, often living paycheck to paycheck, and are actively and primarily in community with other trans people, as a support structure. How would you describe your circle?
I wonder if there’s another demographic factor, or you are in a unique community of trans people. The people in my circle are generally 20-35, nonreligious, working class, often living paycheck to paycheck, and are actively and primarily in community with other trans people, as a support structure. How would you describe your circle?
i had a similar thought and now i think it’s because i only hung out with latinos at the time since my ex was friends w them and he was mexican. english was no one’s first language, except for i, nor were they born in the united states nor any other english speaking country so maybe there was some sort of cultural or language translation happening since reading trans-feminine-presenting sounds odd when i read it out loud.
Interesting! Most I know were either born in the US or have been in the US since they were kids, primarily communicate in english, and discovered their transness while here. You might be right with the cultural/language translation being a factor. But I’ve also seen “Transexual”, “Transgénero”, “mujer/hombre trans” used by Spanish speakers which tracks not that far from common English usage. I wonder if there’s a different distinction being made or if it’s intertwined with the particular individuals’ conservative ideology in some way.
i suspect age is a big factor too; the youngest of the trans people i used to know would have been genx-er’s and i’m assuming that the big majority were boomers since the eldest millenials would have been in their early to mid 20’s at the time (circa 2006).
all of them were born and raised somewhere else and migrated to the united states as late teenagers or young adults; so i have little doubt their conservative upbringing for those with happy enough childhoods would have had a big impact.
One of my buddies suffered from the same problem. He was left out and generally held at arms length until he was shown love, or at least understanding. He flipped almost overnight and realized how grave his mistakes were. He ended up becoming a teacher and hopes to help students before they made the same sort of mistakes he did when his teachers were shitty to him. Props to him for breaking the cycle.
He still regrets how far he pushed some people away, and the actions he took as a teen. But he is much happier now and we have mended our friendships with him.
The far right has a way of infiltrating people’s minds when they are already mentally weak. They lurk around certain communities and poach people out of them.
This is how reddit was staunchly pro Ron Paul in 2008. Myself included. I still contend that that experience was a training ground for future internet-based astroturfing.
They wind up the 20 year old virgins and turn them into incels, and from there and turn them into misogynists. As an example. Remember when /r/conspiracy was an interesting place full of lively theorizing about UFOs and Bigfoot?
They dip into the source of your emotion…whether that be depression or desire, and widen it into a giant chasm ready to take in all your hate as if that will fix everything in the world. They blame your x on y, and to fix y you gotta vote for R.
The funny thing is…this is the exact same story we are told after some idiot starts shooting up a mall. That they were targeted by extremists online. Same book, different protagonist.
Should we just admit that the rise of the far right is just a symptom of a long unaddressed mental health crisis in the US, and certain people exploiting that for their own gain, or is it too soon for that?
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Should we just admit that the rise of the far right is just a symptom of a long unaddressed mental health crisis in the US, and certain people exploiting that for their own gain, or is it too soon for that?
100%. The sickness of the system comes from inequalities and gutted education. Thanks, Reagan!
For me it’s actually hard to respect someone’s political views if they haven’t tried the rest.
Which is why “cancel culture” itself is maybe not very important, but the very idea that someone has said something wrong 10 years ago and must apologize or be ostracized is dubious, because it automatically means that the person expressing it either never doubted their own views or is a hypocrite who lies about their own path to what they are, or even worse, a conformist coward. Conformists are always the worst kind of fascists and supporting mechanisms which reward conformism is the worst thing one can do.
Every worthy intelligent person I know has been all over the place in the past. Pointing out inconsistencies not by “party line” and popularity, but inside their own logic may have limited use, but that’s assuming the person judging understands that logic, and humans are complex.
FFS, Exupery’s Citadel jumps all over the place inside itself. And I don’t think Eco’s views can be characterized more precisely than “generally left”. And Tolkien - there are sometimes kindergarten-level articles triumphantly accusing him of being this or that, but again you can’t.
I would never suck a MAGA dick. Enjoy being lonely while your cult worships the orange fascist!
MAGA isn’t a cult. Cults are small. MAGA is big enough to be a religion, which is far more dangerous.
Same thing. Cults are never small.
You’re right. Even the moonies had big politicians kissing up to them once they got big enough and no one blinked, despite their leader openly claiming he was above Jesus Christ of Nazareth on the heavenly totem poll.
We’re dealing with a very strange religion.
Anti-theist here, religion in all it’s forms is a blight on humanity, but let’s not muddle the waters with misused vocabulary.
The difference between a cult and a religion is not the number of believers, it’s how much they enforce groupthink, how hard it is to leave and if they are based around a charismatic leader who profits directly from the imposed sameness and thought control. Generally cults:
- Rush you into joining and discourage or disallow questions.
- Followers are encouraged to worship a specific group leader.
- Leaders dictate in great detail all aspects of followers’ lives.
- Followers are personally monitored to ensure they’re following guidelines.
- Methods of control are used to keep members close.
That’s how, for example the catholic church isn’t a cult but scientology is. The sharp surveilance and strong measures in place to prevent deviancy make all the difference. It’s easy to leave catholicism, but leaving scientology can even be dangerous.
That’s a measure of the abusiveness of a religion and has nothing to do with its size. I already explained in depth in another comment the political motivations for creating a second, fake definition of the word cult. If you consult Merriam Webster you’ll see the first definition of the word cult is “a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious”, and none of the definitions mention abuse, because your claim is ahistorical myth.
Cults are completely different from religion and size is not a defining factor. They’re more similar to a con and will sometimes use religion to exert control.
Knitting Cult Lady is great! She has a video outlining 7 defining characteristics of cults but I can’t find it.
That’s a myth perpetuated by Christian mums during the satanic panic. Back in the 60s the hippie movement was in full swing and young people were abandoning Christianity to follow pagan religions like Wicca and Hellenism. Christian pastors felt threatened, so they came up with a conspiracy to take the word cult (which up until then had meant a small religion) and make it a bad word by association with abuse. That’s why all the historical examples of cults that predate the 60s have no association with abuse. You take an example like the Cult of Dionysus and there’s no pejorative meaning to the word.
I don’t think it’s a myth if it has become an area of study. Yes, words have different meanings like “theory” does in and out of academia, but the current understanding of the word is much more comprehensive than a small religion. And MAGA is most definitely a cult of personality that uses religion as a tool.
You can do science on any made up word and reach genuine conclusions with flawed premises. Look at phrenology and scientific racism. If you ignore the question “is this thing real?” and skip straight to “what are the associations with this thing”, you’ll find something. It’ll be nonsense, but it’ll be there.
For example, suppose I look at the habits of clowns and roofers. I don’t question why clowns and roofers are associated, I just assume they are and check the data. The data I find will be the overlay of two different trends. I’ll reach all sorts of conclusions about clowns that are only true of roofers, and vice versa. The data will say clowns love a good beer after being outdoors all day, and roofers visit party stores a lot. That’s nonsense, but if I don’t question the association, the data will show it.
Associating small religions with abusive religions is the same mistake. The data will tell you all sorts of things about small and abusive religions, but it won’t tell you which trend belongs to which group, and people will make all sorts of wrong assumptions based on the wacky data.
Yep, science has churned out some whacky stuff before. But what? So you’re saying that the study of non-religious or coincidentally religious cults as a means to exploit and control is pure made-up nonsense? That’s kind of wild to me considering how characteristic and consistent their modus operandi is. MAGA fits the bill so well, for example, that I have a hard time believing they don’t exist. And I’d like to hear some opinions from people in the know, like Daniella Mestyanek from the link above, who you’re essentially saying her entire field of study is based on a lie.
Cult is just a word the big congregation uses about the small congregation
The new lexicon is “High demand group”
This encompasses cults, religions, MLMs, and all sorts of other groups that behave cult-like attributes
Well, no. When you’re talking about the kind of massive institutional power of the kind that buys politicians and institutes theocratic dictatorships, that kind of power is exclusive to larger religions. You won’t see that kind of thing from a cult. Now a cult may well have beliefs just as vile as a religion, and it may ruin lives, but it doesn’t have the institutional power it takes to crush all opposition like you see from MAGA and Christianity.
The church of scientology.
Also not a cult.
You telling me that the “religion” that sued the Cult Awareness Network into oblivion so they wouldn’t be labeled a cult is not a cult?
The Cult Awareness Network presented itself as a source of information about “cults”; by 1991 it was monitoring over 200 groups that it referred to as “mind-control cults”. It also promoted a form of coercive intervention by self-styled “deprogrammers” who would, for a significant fee, forcibly detain or even abduct the cult member and subject them to a barrage of attacks on their beliefs, supposedly in order to counter the effects of the brainwashing. The practice, which could involve criminal actions such as kidnapping and false imprisonment, generated controversy, and Ted Patrick and others faced both civil and criminal proceedings.
Gee, I fucking wonder why they lost that lawsuit. Scientologists are evil, but so was the Cult Awareness Network. You’re not going to convince anyone that those assholes were doing the right thing. You can’t expect a bunch of kidnappers to have a good opinion about what is and isn’t a cult. Scientology is a large scale religion, which makes it much worse than a cult. Now I don’t want to hear you defending the Scientologists by calling them a cult again.
MEGA cult. Not to be confused with MAGA cult.
Look into it. But not too hard or too publicly.
Were you paying attention earlier in the thread when I said cults are small, or are you expecting me to investigate Scientology and find that surprise, they’re actually very small and don’t have many members?
Reminds me of Uncle Ruckus.
They’re in the sunken place.
I mean, you’ve got to be stupid to be a MAGA head. But being gay and a MAGA head you need to be terminally dumb. Amazing that such people can breathe without intellectual assistance.
Dumb or horribly self-loathing. Unfortunately, there are plenty parts of America that help instill that feeling.
Yup, every Republican woman is deeply into self loathing. I can’t tell you how many Republican woman I’ve heard say women can’t be leaders or it takes a man to do what’s right.
Just look at all the rightwingers that head anti-pedo movements that get busted for having CP or being actual groomers. (The list is LONG)
That’s just another tactic of projection. Republican woman are just mad that they aren’t men and need to justify their own subjugation by ensuring they get second place in the social hierarchy instead of questioning why there’s a hierarchy in the first place. Thinking for yourself is difficult, so being told what to do is easy. Even if that means being told to hate yourself. Hell Christianity’s first chronological story boils down to “women are the reason life sucks.”
They just think he’ll surely only go after Other people, that they’ll be safe, part of the “In” group.
Upper middle class white folks
You don’t have to be smart to be gay
GOOD!
“Gay man who put face inside the leopard cage is sad that his face keeps getting eaten”
“OWWW! MY OWN FOOT THAT I SHOT!!!”
I never thought leopards would shoot MY foot!
the same gay people who would tell the cops stonewall is right up the street
Me as any vulnerable minority supporting Trump’s fascist project:
It’s not that these people are necessarily dumb it’s a kink like any other. They want to keep the thrill of getting off on doing something illegal and socially unacceptable (in the fascist society they support)
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Leopard-loving people say their leopard face-eating support is ruining their lives
Did anyone read the article? Or am I not understanding the article correctly? Isnt the article saying their life is harder because they’re being rejected by the LGBTQ community for supporting Trump? Or lol am I misunderstanding this comment section that seems to be mostly implying they’re life is worse from the other MAGAs rejecting them?
Edit: I’m laughing at how bad I am reading the room not at anything the article or comments are saying.
It’s a terrible article and mostly click bait. My take away is they are being rejected by both sides. Big surprise.
The article says that the specific people they’re featuring have been ostracized from the gay community. I wish the article was longer, because there’s a remarkable lack of self-awareness on display in the few quotes it includes.
A hundred years on, and lessons are still not being learned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
