Hello fellow c/privacy members.
I’m not new to privacy related things but I had a hard time persuading my family members and friends to switch to Matrix/Element. It is a reponse to UK’s Online Security Bill and Investigative Powers Act that may soon in effect.
While it is just a preperation and planning in case those actually became law, I already face resistance from them. When I ask them would they switch, their first reaction is “Why one more app?” then follows with “That’s cumbersome.” or “I don’t want to learn a new app.” and suggest something more popular like Line, Telegram or Discord. Sometimes they would “Install WhatsApp because X is on there and he/she won’t install one more app just for you.”
What can I do to persuade them to use a new platform? Thanks in advance.
EDIT: I think I should elebroate more of what Online Security Bill and Investigative Powers Act does[1]. As far as I understand, OSB will break E2EE by require scanning data on client device, like CSAM but much more generic. IPA requires companies to submit security funcition to the government for approval before releasing, and disable such feature upon request. Apple[2], Single[3] and WhatsApp made the announancment of exiting the UK market totally or partically if two were signed into law.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/thenextweb.com/news/uk-investigatory-powers-act-default-surveillance-devices-privacy
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2023/07/21/apple-threatens-to-pull-facetime-and-imessage-from-the-uk
[3] https://web.archive.org/web/20230809125823/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-65301510#2023-08-09T12:57:48+00:00
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i tried and i failed. not because my friends didn’t want to switch, but because the software is hillariously bad. problems with the encryption left and right, smaller instances having downtimes multiple times a week (what’s the use of a federated service if anyone only uses the same one server?), buggy clients - after a few months we shut it down and moved to threema for groupchats.
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I can’t confirm this. For me it runs smooth and without bugs. Calls with Element are sometimes better than calls with my mobile carrier.
But I don’t have the technical knowledge to understand why a backend in python is a bad thing. Maybe your experience with Matrix is biased because of this knowledge?
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This huge difference in experience isn’t a great sign. But I hope it gets better over time.
when did you experience this?
loading the web client also takes a lot of time (1-2 minutes) for me, but everything else is ok. even that is because of an API design problem, and they are already working to replace that bad decision
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I believe it was this year that they made some great improvements in performance, so you might get a different experience if you try it again.
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Well, it looks we might have convinced someone that it’s not that bad :)
I’m planning to use Conduit[1] which is written in Rust instead of Synapse. I belive this will consume less resources but have no idea will it run smooth or not.
Afaik conduit is even more beta than denderite, personally I would not use it after seeing how buggy experience friends had with it
I haven’t tried yet. Dendrite follows the micro services architecture which I don’t need and increases management work. That’s why I choose Conduit.
This paragraph is why you won’t convince friends and family to use Matrix. It’s still too technical for non-technical people.
friends and family dont even have to think about servers. they pick the client they like, log in to their account, and thats it.
conduit is server software, an alternative to the official python-based homeserver that is called synapse
I agree it is technical. However, considering if the laws are in effect, there might not be a secure option, let alone private. It means that all conversations might be under government’s watch. That’s why I’m looking for a self hostable option, that can make sure data is in my control.
I am open to considering alternatives, but the foundation of the plan is based on the assumption that apps commonly used for secure and private conversations, such as Signal, may become insufficiently secure and private due to potential future laws or the possibility of exiting the UK market. The preferred criteria for the chosen app are that it is open source, audited, or ideally, both.
if it is an option to use different apps for daily chit chat and private matters, you may also take a look at Briar.
I say it this way because you both need* to beonlineconnected** to receive the message. It is also a bit more than a messaging app, its useful for organizing group events.* there is a workaround. they have a software that you can run on a regular computer that will hold the incoming messages until your phone becomes accessible, and the outgoing ones until the recipient becomes available.
** the app can use the internet (always through Tor), the local network (like a wifi network) and bluetooth to connect to your contacts
It would be nice to use just one app as they are the users. Not me.
And having a computer online the whole time because one might not present is quite a deal breaker.
Yes, but I was telling you this option because you are concerned about laws that will outlaw encryption. If they come into effect, it could easily happen that only solutions like this will remain.
I’ve been using Matrix/Element for around three years. I have there my family, a couple of friends and a couple of services that use it for alert, information. I host a non-federated server on a VPS in Germany. My approach has been simple: do you want to chat with me? Use Matrix. Otherwise, call me or send me emails.
If privacy is important for you, then make it a priority.
Respect their decision. Use bridges if you still want to chat with them. You can tell them you prefer Matrix and maybe even convince them to try it out once you show you can use it to combine multiple chat apps into one using Beeper or whatever, but you won’t convince them to switch over. Element will just be “that app we use if we want to talk to x” if you try.
I think Matrix is good enough these days, but it wasn’t ages. The official iOS app is being rewritten (for good reason) and the Android app is being rewritten again.
Definetely check out SimpleX Chat before you try to convince them about Matrix. SimpleX is actually the best when it comes to privacy and especially metadata-protection, which I heard Matrix handles especially badly.
Also, on SimpleX you have no permanent user identifiers at all and users only use (optionally) self-hostable servers to forward messages, not to register an account there.
SimpleX Chat
Thanks for the suggestion. I will take a look at the whitepaper later. Still, I want one that I can host in case the UK law came into effect. While privacy and security is prarmount, a service in my control is also one of the objective.
i just tell them “if you want to talk to me im on X”, if they care enough they will, if they dont, they wont. problem solved.
and all the others say, “if you want to talk to me I’m on Facebook”
for them, problem solvedSure, let them die in their ignorance . Worked great for me.
This itself is a kind of ignorance.
I wish I can be this definitive but I couldn’t. Those connections are still needed, and most of the time is I need to talk to someone rather than the opposite.
and most of the time is I need to talk to someone rather than the opposite.
for this you cant do much other that setup a whatsapp bridge or something
Which is why I don’t like that advice. These connections are valuable, and people might want to talk to you but have other reasons why they won’t end up using the privacy focussed option only. It’s very hard to switch fully to something like Signal or Matrix, and this isn’t unique to privacy focussed chat apps either.
For me I talk to close friends and family on Signal, and that works because those are the people I have personal discussions with. For other friends that don’t really use Signal consistently, I’ve found that they still use Signal when they want to talk about something private. It’s a process, and I’m happy to put in a little bit of work while people I care about switch over.
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I set up a home server with a litany of bridges.
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I show them all my chats from multiple platforms in one app.
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They ask me for an account.
Got a how to for #1? Sounds like you hid a lot of complexity in that 1 step.
You can also try to find an instance that already does bridging. For Finnish citizens, pikaviestin.fi is a good option, but they don’t provide accounts to non-finns.
But no, I do not have a guide for setting this up. But you set up a homeserver, with a domain you can commit to, and once that is working, configure whatever bridges you like using their respective docs.
And yes, it is complex. Matrix is the most complicated thing I’ve ever self-hosted. But it wasn’t untenable, and it’s been very low maintenance.
Nice move
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You could buy them a drink to install it. That’s how I got my family onto Signal. I also got my GF onto Element, but she’s also obligated to put up with my shit
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I wish it can be that simple.
Goals🤩
As some would phrase it
If they don’t want to then don’t continue trying to persuade them. Chances are they don’t care about privacy anyway, and even if they do, everyone has their own personal preferences.
“Installing
APPdoes not require you to switch to it nor asking friends and family to use it. What it does is allowing them to reach out to you in a private way. By installing it you respect and support their choice of avoidingBAD_APP.”On the sidenote: Just recommend Signal. It uses phone number as identifier, easy to grow by using phone book, has good track record when glowies have a warrant and most importantly it’s stable. It has flaws (no sms, not saving chat history) but there are no other alternatives available yet that beat signal for normies.
They are using Signal. I want to switch to Matrix/Element because the new laws might make Signal (and other viable chat apps) unavailable in the UK anymore.
Seems like you’re fucked anyway then. This has to be solved politically.
I’m in the process of trying to convince my company to switch to Matrix. I’ve setup a test server and the execs are tepidly giving it a whirl.
The problem is, we use Teams, Microsoft has its proverbial foot in our door, people are used to Teams and don’t really want to switch, and the company doesn’t care enough about privacy and data sovereignty to overcome the inertia and the learning curve.
They listen politely to my arguments and they agree that it would be better if Microsoft didn’t get all our data, but ultimately they really don’t care at all.
Just a reminder, telegram is NOT secure at all. Telegram is NOT end-to-end encryptes by default, and they are not disclosing this fact peoperly, which makes them untrustworthy and not a tool against growing online surveilance
Sure you have to enable E2EE but they never say they use E2EE by default, they’re not advertising at all anyway. Saying it is “not secure at all” is a bit of a reach. They have proven they don’t share data with governments and again, you can use E2EE if you want
Honestly, WhatsApp is more trustworthy than Telegram.
Sorry to break it to you, but Matrix is (for all practical purposes) run by a UK based company. If you are concerned about UK legislation, they are one of the worst to switch to as they will likely have little choice but to comply.
Better use XMPP, which is fully independent of any single company running everything behind the curtains.
Matrix is a protocol
Which is 100% controlled by the Matrix Foundation (and not an international standard like XMPP), which in turn is near 100% controlled by a single UK based company (Element/New Vector). Which makes the distinction between the company and the protocol absolutely moot. I wish it was otherwise.
That’s not really true though. If the Matrix foundation, element or any other party does something scketchy just fork it
Have you ever looked at the Synapse codebase? It’s almost as bad as Chromium and we all know how impossible that is to “just fork”.
That comparison doesn’t make sense. They are actively developing Dendrite alongside Synapse. They goal of Synapse is to be the stable version that just works and deploys the new features. Not necessarily being slim and efficient. That’s where Dendrite comes in and is very close to being feature parity. Many major servers already are running Dendrite and you wouldn’t even notice.
So if Google was actively developing a competitor to Chromium that is much more slimmed down and efficient, then your comparison would make sense.
I guess I can just remove such code if they ever implement it as the home server is open sourced (Synapse). Plus other implementation exists (Conduit). Still, I will have a look on XMPP and see if it meets my needs. As others points out, I shouldn’t persuade but adapt thus I need bridges to connect other services, which Matrix doesn’t lack in.
XMPP has very nice bridges as well: https://joinjabber.org/tutorials/gateways/slidge/
I preferred xmpp because it’s easier to host and consumes MUCH less RAM than a Matrix server. idk how both of them scale, but I only have myself and a few friends and family on my XMPP server and works fine.
Lemme know when there’s an actual usable client for XMPP. What software do you even use to connect to XMPP?
I use Gajim, family uses Conversations.
Conversations looks like it was made for Android kit Kat lol. Are you expecting that to be the messaging app killer as a serious recommendation to people
You don’t need to speculate what they’re doing. It’s entirely open source, and you can validate every line of code they’re putting in. Is there any actual parts of the matrix protocol or app you’re specifically warning against, or are you causing general FUD?
Again, we don’t need to speculate, the entire platform is open source from server to client, so if there’s an issue with legislation then you can see it reflected in the code.
I am not speculating about anything. Are you personally ready to develop & maintain a fork of a Matrix homeserver or client? There is of course Conduit and Fluffychat etc. but they chronically lack behind in features and have all sorts of incompatibilities.
If Element is forced to implement the privacy invasive features required by this proposed UK legislation you will have little choice but to follow along as the entire ecosystem is over-engineered and designed to give Element a competitive edge over other competitors trying to use the same protocol. Like with Chromium it doesn’t matter much that it is open-source.
as the entire ecosystem is over-engineered and designed to give Element a competitive edge over other competitors trying to use the same protocol
honestly I don’t think at all that it is over engineered. I see that alt implementations can’t keep up with the new features (or at least that was what I remember from a year or 2 ago, but now that I looked into it, conduit development gained some momentum), but that is not because it would be over engineered, but because the devs of the alt implementations all do this in their free time.
Conduit got a nice update today, which makes it only about 2 years behind Synapse or so ;)
It is true that they are mostly hobby projects and that is part of the reason why they are lagging behind, but a regular chat server is actually not that hard to write. There are multiple hobbyist written XMPP servers (and multiple enterprise written ones as well) that are up to specs and work well. Granted, they had a bit more time doing so, and Conduit might eventually catch up as well… but similar to Google and Chromium, it is not in the business interest of Element to have anyone come up with a fully viable alternative to their reference implementation.
You list multiple alternative server software and then claim it’s unachievable at the same time lol. You are proving yourself wrong. Also there are a ton of other good Matrix apps out there besides Element.
You are speculating because you are speculating something could potentially go wrong because they’re in the UK, therefore the entire FOSS ecosystem and company they built just be untrustworthy.
Huh? Nothing stops you from hosting your own server they can’t prevent that
And then? Either you never update it, which likely means you will gradually stop being able to communicate with other people on the Matrix network, or you do, which means you will get those privacy invasive changes on your own server as well. And as I extensively explained elsewhere in this thread, forking is not a realistic option.
Bro I can’t even convince them to join me on Signal… It even syncs contacts w/ mobile number so it’s just a matter of downloading a stupid app and you’re set… I think one day I’ll be brave enough and just disappear from whatsapp.
I did this a few years ago. I set my status message to “Starting on [date] I’ll be available only on Signal/sms.” and that was it. A few frieds/family members moved, most of them not, but I don’t miss it a bit.
Don’t remind me of Signal. I spent lots of effort to convince them to switch, and ultimately defeated, not the app but me, because of a protest that people move toward a more secure communication system i.e. Signal, not more private.
I basically forced everyone to message me on Signal & Telegram cause fuck Meta (people my age in Canada desperately wants to talk on Instagram for some reason)
Easier to get new friends and family who are already there
Sad but true. However, my whole family are not there. They are the primary contacts of mine, with some friends in the mix.
