TL;DR
- Efforts like Graphene OS face increasing pressure from apps that refuse to run on non-standard Android.
- The custom ROM project characterizes Google’s approach to device attestation as incomplete and flawed.
- Graphene OS is prepared to take legal action if Google won’t let it pass Play Integrity checks.
I just want to buy a Linux laptop with VoLTE and be done with the product line “smart phone”. Unfortunately there is no such device (to my knowledge) and the only device that comes close is PinePhone Pro with docking station.
You can put a SIM card in some older thinkpad laptops with that upgrade option. Some thinkpads have the slot for a SIM card but not the internal components to use it. So make sure to do some research if that sounds promising.
There are VOIP phone line services like JMP that give you a number and let you use your computer as a phone. I haven’t tried JMP but it always seemed cool and I respect that the developed software running JMP is open source.. The line cost 5$ a month.
Skype also has a similar phone line service. Its not open source like JMP and is part of Microsoft. Usually thats cause for concern for FOSS nuts, but in this context its not a bad thing in some ways. Skype is two decade old mature software with enough financial backing from big M to have real tech support and a dev team to patch bugs, in theory. So probably less headaches getting it running right which is important if you want to seriously treat as a phone line. I think Skype price depends on payment plan and where you live, so not sure on exact cost.
Neither is available in my region and Skype’s webpage does not mention making calls, only receiving them.
Agreed. I always loved the idea of the HTC Mini +.
Put the sim in your laptop, that’s the connectivity hub. The mini phone piggybacks the LTE connection so you don’t have to pull out your laptop for simple calls, texts, navigation or music actions.
Volte plz shur
There are community made projects for the framework laptop that add LTE using an expansion card
Hell yes.
It’s fucking open source, this is no different from games with intrusive anti-cheat refusing to run on Linux, except in this case it’s not even a different OS.
It’s monopolistic and anti-user.
Ironically, if Graphene would succeed, it would lead to a system that’s every bit as locked down as a manufacturer’s Android. GrapheneOS would also not allow you to have root etc.
IMO Graphene wants a place at the big player table. They’re not in it for user freedoms.
A manufacturer’s Android can have special privileges for their own apps, and almost will certainly have special privileges for Google’s apps.
Graphene by default wouldn’t give special privileges to any app, so that’s at least a plus.
It’s true that it would be locked down, but you at least have a couple more controls over how locked down compared to a manufacturer’s OS.
Motorola ROM is fine
It’s high time we break apart all those large tech companies!
Spin off the Android team into a nonprofit. I’m pretty sure OEMs would be all over funding that.
AND force Alphabet to fund it.
Actually this isn’t the pwn you think it is because funding results in favors and control. Remember the OpenAI non-profit and Microsoft? You want it to be funded by more than Alphabet. Ideally you want Alphabet’s funding share to not be the largest at all. You want government funding too.
Thats conditional funding
Recently moved to graphene couldn’t be happier
I don’t care about these apps but it will only get worse over time if not addressed. I could see things as simple as Spotify, Netflix, etc. Refusing to run
I don’t use those services either but that’s not a future I want
I could see things as simple as…
Last I heard, the McDonalds’ app doesn’t work, of all things.
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/9123-the-mcdonalds-app-doesnt-work/
Wow, there you go then.
Literally 1984 (/s)
Can’t even order Donalds from your phone that you bought with your own money anymore 🫡
Neither does the BBC’s couch to 5k app, for who knows what reason.
Considering the lawsuits, now seems like a good time.
We’ve started the process of talking to regulators and they’re interested.
Oh that’s great, they aren’t actually suing since that would be a pretty big money pit, they are going straight to regulators, something can happen.
FTC act is the most useful against this sort of behavior and only the FTC can file suit for that, not individual companies. I don’t think this could be filed as a violation of the Sherman act. See here for an overview: https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws
The world of mobile phones is a real world example of what we avoided on the PC back in the day when the IBM BIOS got reverse engineered, allowing for someone to put out an IBM compatible PC without having to pay the tithe to big blue first. Not that IBM didn’t do their level best to put those efforts in the ground with their lawyers and the courts as soon as they found out about it. Thankfully the legal system of the time didn’t allow that to happen.
It has been pretty depressing to me that the tech literate have been so easily lulled into accepting such things in the name of “cool toys” and “security” virtually everywhere in modern life besides the PC/laptop/server spaces.
Phones, TV set top boxes, smart TVs, IoT gear. They are all a cesspit of locked down propitiatory and gate kept gardens where nothing happens without the gardens keeper getting a cut and having final say over everything.
This sort of control and gatekeeping from the likes of Google, Apple, and Qualcomm was not something that was hard to see coming a mile away, yet we all collectively let it happen anyway.
It has been pretty depressing to me that the tech literate have been so easily lulled into accepting such things in the name of “cool toys” and “security” virtually everywhere in modern life besides the PC/laptop/server spaces.
From my exposure to supporting said folks with PC related problems, its easy to see the reality here. Phones provide a streamlined experience with zero frills. They don’t want super flexible computing devices, they want appliances. More to the point, the level of care and maintenance needed to have a top-shelf PC experience is time and effort most people would rather not expend. Doing this right was inconvenient to begin with, and left the field wide open for anything that would be easier.
My complaint is not that the “appliance” solutions exist for those that want them. But that there is next to no room in the market now for options that are not those “appliance” solutions for those that do want them but also want to take part in the modern tech world with things like NFC payments without having to trick the services with Magisk modules.
Oh, we’re on the same page there. I’m complaining about that too. Things are shifting from “make the environment easier for some people” to “painstakingly chisel out an expert mode like you’re escaping from Shawshank.” and I do not like it.
The PC was stolen fire from the gods. aRM snapdragon X will take back our fire, turn PC into smartphone on the desktop.
Heracles could shoot the eagle and break the chains, but then Prometheus might inform Zeus of the path to Troy. Titanomachy is one way of exchanging fire, but I’m human and content to hand it back and forth between each other. The pain of letting go is nuclear enough after Gaia and Uranus’s Family Vacation tore valleys through the mountains.
Chatgpt, decode this thread
Your message draws heavily on mythological references and metaphor to discuss the evolution of technology, particularly the ongoing shifts in computing power and platforms. Let’s break it down:
Stolen Fire from the Gods: This likely references the myth of Prometheus stealing fire from the gods to give to humanity, symbolizing the act of bringing powerful, once-guarded knowledge or technology to the masses. In a modern context, this could relate to how advanced computing technology, once limited to powerful PCs, is now becoming more accessible. ARM Snapdragon X: ARM architecture, particularly Qualcomm's Snapdragon chips, powers many modern smartphones and tablets. The "Snapdragon X" might symbolize the next step in this evolution, suggesting that these mobile processors are becoming powerful enough to rival traditional PCs, effectively turning a smartphone into a desktop-like experience. Heracles and the Eagle: In the myth, Heracles shoots the eagle that tortures Prometheus, which could represent a disruption or liberation. Here, it might be a metaphor for technological breakthroughs that disrupt the current state of computing, potentially "freeing" users from traditional PC constraints. Prometheus informing Zeus: This could suggest the risks of such breakthroughs—informing Zeus of the path to Troy might hint at unintended consequences or revealing strategies that could lead to new challenges or conflicts, perhaps hinting at issues of control, security, or privacy in technology. Titanomachy: The Titanomachy was a war between the Titans and the Olympians. This might symbolize large-scale technological battles or shifts, like the competition between different tech giants or platforms. Human Exchange of Fire: Unlike the gods, humans share knowledge and technology with each other, passing "fire" back and forth, which could represent the collaborative and iterative nature of technological progress. Pain of Letting Go: Innovation often comes with sacrifices—letting go of older technologies or familiar ways of doing things, which can be as painful and destructive as nuclear fission, perhaps referencing the intense impact and change technology can bring, much like the mythological conflicts that reshaped the world. Gaia and Uranus's Family Vacation: This refers to the myth where Gaia (Earth) and Uranus (Sky) bore the Titans, leading to significant upheavals. This could symbolize the fundamental, tectonic shifts that technological advancements create in society, reshaping landscapes (both literal and metaphorical).In essence, your message seems to discuss the transformation of computing power, the challenges of innovation, and the profound impacts technology has on society, all wrapped in a mythological narrative.
I wish you could slap a custom rom on whatever phone you want and it Just Works™ like you can slap linux on any PC, but instead we get apps that potentially don’t work, locked bootloaders, push notifications tied to Google Play Services, and whatever else. You can put Lineage on the EU version of my phone but not the US version because fuck you. I hate how corpo centric phones have become. Like Google shouldn’t be allowed to hijack my entire screen for an ad or an app update. The entire modern definition of “sideloading” is BS, apps have access by default to things that they really don’t need, and why do I need to use ADB to purge your pre-installed bloatware ffs
Not cool.
We can get same experience quite soon on laptops too when arm laptops&desktop will arrive toensd users.It gonna be lock down same as phones nowdays.
I do not like this prediction, because it seems like a plausible reality. Which would be awful.
risc-V laptops might compete with arm in a few years - maybe not for power users, but for most simpl use , or for those who will just ssh into real computer.
deleted by creator
ngl a unlocked bootloader would be a security nightmare
So, like a desktop or laptop? Sounds fine to me.
I’m not an expert, but I had an expert explain that an unlocked boot loader is only risky if you think someone nefarious is physically able to get their hand on your phone. Is that true?
How does one flash a ROM without unlocking the bootloader these days?
Shouldn’t that break Android Verified Boot?
A pure GSI image could use a Google key, I suppose, but others shouldn’t, right?
You have to unlock it fire and flash the gsi rom
Yeah it would’ve been like that for pcs too if they weren’t around for quite longer.
wonder what calyxos is doing.
They don’t want apps that collect personal data.
k
The only reason I stopped using grapheneOS was because Google contactless payment didn’t work.
Loved everything else about graphene thoI’ve never used contactless on my phone, I already had a contactless debit card. Why are you, and others, using their phones to pay?
the app hides the real numbers for the credit card and gives the POS a mock id to make the purchase. it’s harder to clone. also you need to unlock the phone for it to work it’s an extra layer of protection
Giving a mock card sounds useful. I’ve looked into that for paying online but I couldn’t find an open source way to do it.
Pretty sure all contactless forms of payment work like that
I can create a virtual card before every trip, use it via my phone and then cancel it after the trip, never worrying if my card got skimmed anywhere for one.
For some fucking reason there is zero option for this type of secure virtual card in my country. And I hate it. A friend got skimmed for over $1200 a couple months ago.
when you pay using the virtual wallet it automatically makes a mock id to the POS … at least in my country it does
Ehhh I’m not sure how I got skimmed. Better safe than sorry now, a deleted card is pretty foolproof
There’s no need to carry your cards if you already have your phone.
Also, unlike your wallet, if you lose it you can track it.
Do you not carry cash? My cards go with my cash, which I would carry anyway even if I could pay by phone just in case I’m out and lose one.
No I don’t. It’s all contactless here.
Lazy.
Just plain lazy.
I already have my phone in hand in shops - shopping lists, reminders or even plain taking my mind off the shelves so I won’t buy unnecessary shit. Then I get to checkout and…my phone is already in hand. Just boop it and done. No need to dig out wallet from pocket and then dig out card from wallet.
Why carry a contact less card when you can pay with your phone? Have you given it a try? I find myself without a card in lots of situations. Paying by phone is incredibly convenient. Lot harder to lose than a card too.
Yes, it has an upper limit though as I discovered after cycling to the garage to pick up my car with just my phone. Triple cycling joy that day 🙄
Yes this depends on the linked card, the software you are using and sometimes vendor limits. Many banks have a cardless withdrawal from atm option as a backup if there happens to be atm nearby. These can have pretty high limits. There are also card generating apps like cash app where you create a cc number on the fly. In a pinch most vendors can easily split the cost of something across different cards if one is maxing out.
I’d still carry my debit card if I used phone, just in case I lose one while out and about. I think I’d be more likely to notice my phone is missing but more likely to lose the phone in the first place.
I’ve never tried it in part because I don’t trust my phone with it’s proprietary software, and I suspect there may be no open source apps to pay with.
A contactless card barely takes up any space. It’s not particularly easier to lose either. I’ve never lost my card; I just keep it in my wallet, in my pocket, just like my phone is in my pocket.
Easy with one card, but it’s a different story when you have multiple cards. Transit pass, loyalty cards from grocery stores for discounts, credit cards for cash back rewards.
You know what takes up less space? Software on the phone that I’m already carrying.
There have also been occasions where I forget my wallet but still have my phone to pay with.
I find it super convenient.
Also, it doesn’t have a limit. Pretty sure I bought my last car with contactless on my phone, but that was years ago.I’ve never used a contactless debit card. I already had a chip and pin debit card. Why are you, and others, using your contactless card to pay?
My Chip+PIN card has an RFID chip. Standard in Germany. Why would I tell, much less trust, google with my banking. Why would I let them skim data and/or a percentage off the transaction. Why would I choose a system with spotty acceptance, whereas I can use my girocard everywhere. It also doubles as 2nd factor for online banking.
I didn’t choose, my bank gave me a contactless card when my last chip and pin card expired (the card still has chip and pin which I use when contactless fails).
I’m sure Google contactless payment works really well when the phone is dead. Or you drop your phone in a toilet or off a bridge. It’s far easier to loose a phone than a card in a wallet in your pocket. If you lose your phone, you also lose access to all your money.
Not a fan of google pay, but I gotta say, I lost way more wallets than phones in my life it’s about a 3 to 0 ratio (not counting purses I have lost before owning a phone.
I also carry a wallet? Cause, yknow, ID and stuff.
Phone is just way more convenient. Especially since I don’t have a limit on its contactless amount. Whereas with my card, I would have to chip&pin for anything over £40
You could use sandboxed google play on the main user or second user.
Oh I never actually tried but figured it would. That sucks then
Still can’t use tap to pay
Do you pass play integrity?
Do you pass play integrity?
GrapheneOS, and other non-OEM OSes, do not. It’s kinda the whole point of the article/OP I linked.
Have you tried playintegrity fix?
Nope, nor do I intend to. GrapheneOS frowns upon rooting and modifying the system as it typically widens your attack surface. I’m not using a secure OS then going around to purposefully make it less secure.
I’m running Graphene OS and its been solid. A few issues here and there with app compatibility but it is fantastic.
I really hope the GrapheneOS team succeed. Custom ROMs are reason I’m really into tech today. Coding, FOSS, Linux, etc. all that came from rooting my dad’s HTC phone back in the day. Google shouldn’t cannibalize its children.
Google shouldn’t cannibalize its children.
Hopefully Google will also burn in some oven for a bit lol. Turn up the heat a little.
a little
That’s a weird way to spell ‘to 11’
besides these two lazy kids and the witch who just wants to eat there’s also the hungry stepmom who pushed the idea and the deadbeat dad who went along with it (until both women die and he ends up the hero)
Sounds like the
GoogleAlphabet familyThe pattern feels like a-b-c sometimes, but the rebranding keeps the story feeling fresh
Ha!! Good one!
Why does this call the problem by it’s name, monopoly.
Android is another area Google are abusing their monopoly. Sure the phone market is a duopoly, but that doesn’t help. Apple is even more locked down and user abusing.
Lots of app companies, like bank apps, think locking their apps to only work on official Android is best for security, but that compounds the monopoly. It’s also arguably less secure!
I don’t even understand. Am I getting this wrong?? Does the payment processing happen inside the banking app?! Because if so, that’s the bigger problem isn’t it? All the checks for correctness should happen on the servers that the banking app connects to, not the banking app itself. If that’s already the case, then what are they worried about? I’m probably missing something here, but honestly I just don’t understand why they would do that.
The app will almost certainly mostly be just wrapping a web interface. But this dedicated browser can provide the site with all the access of an app. The idea will be only this browser can be trusted to access this site and can check the run environment before connects. I’m they’d do the same on the desktop, if they thought it would be swallowed.
Here’s a harsh truth and a reality some tech users need to wake up to.
Google has never cared about open-source. They have never cared about user-choice/user freedom. They could easily tomorrow make Android closed-source and that would be the end of Android. It has always been about control. Apple got that authoritarian idea correct long ago by locking down the entire OS.
Google is allowing open-source modding only because there’s a large community out there that cares and wants it to thrive. And since it runs on Linux, it would make Google look VERY bad if they removed bootloader unlocking, open source, removed features that causes issues for custom roms.
Google doesn’t care you YOU. If they really cared, they wouldn’t be slowly removing features or adding anti-user features that in the long run, don’t benefit anyone but them.
I’m glad the government declared them a convicted monopoly. I’m still ashamed it took them this long to finally go through with it.
What an insane world we live in.
Afaik GPL 2 would be stopping google from making android closed source anyway, unless I got something wrong about the license terms. But if anything that supports your argument. The main reason google is generally supportive of open source is that they recognize that they benefit from it. The moment that changes, google will try their best to close off anything it can (granted I don’t think it’s that likely to change, but they’re already abusing their position plenty).
There is another side to this coin though,
Android roms took googles work. The community could have assisted with other mobile os systems like Firefox OS or Ubuntu mobile but didn’t.
Instead ROM developers wanted a cookie cutter solution.
In practice, Android is actually fairly open. Republicans have a weird obsession with Google (remember that weird hearing where they clearly didn’t understand technology). You can even disable the inbuilt apps
This could lead to a situation like windows where 50 popups are added. It’s could backfire and it benefits Apple a lot. That’s what I’m concerned about. I’m worried that I’ll end up paying for Gmail or more for Android. And Google will get blamed for it
Can you handily disable notifications being monitored or the keyboard informing google on your typing? Disabling apps is surface level, the software is free to te end user for a reason, google harvests us.
Android ROMs community took Google’s work? Are you forgetting which community developed Kernel does Android use? Let’s not think about the custom ROMs community as free loaders, please. They provide a free and amazing service.
