• 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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    332 years ago

    There cannot be “free speech” instances because every instance (or more generally speaking: any online community) I am aware of that claims to be “free speech” ends up being an alt-right echo chamber, a platform for hate speech, or a site to share questionable pornographic content.

    Unfortunately you need moderation if your Internet platform is open to the public.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      12 years ago

      I did not ask for alt-right instances or unmoderated, i asked for a list of instances that support free speech

    • Ram_The_Manparts [he/him]
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      72 years ago

      Exactly, it’s happened on literally every subreddit with lax moderation and it would definitely happen here as well.

      • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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        92 years ago

        I remember Voat which started as “free speech” alternative to Reddit. When I checked the site out the first thing I saw was an underage anime character without clothing on the front page.

        Not sure if this is what we want the Threadiverse to be associated with. (Well, actually I am sure that we don’t want that.)

    • @[email protected]
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      252 years ago

      The people who make these posts looking for “free speech” are really looking for no consequence speech. They like to pretend they’re fans of the town square but ignore the fact that people can get run out of the town square, they can get shouted down in the town square, and they can get drowned out by the others in the town square.

      They want to be able to say hateful things without being accountable for their hate. That’s not free speech as envisioned by anyone who is an actual advocate of open society or free speech.

      What we have on Lemmy is probably the closest thing we’ll ever get to a public square in the Internet. Someone can go and say their hateful thing. Then they can get run out of the instance they’re on and go find another one. If they say hateful things and get run out of there, they can find another one. Who knows, one day they might find an instance full of like minded hateful people who don’t run them out. Of course, they’re likely to find that instance is not federated very well or broadly. Much like people from non racist towns don’t like to have much to do with towns widely known to be full of racists.

      • 𝘋𝘪𝘳𝘬
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        102 years ago

        … and if they can’t find a town square where they can spew their hate, they can still found their own town!

        The people who make these posts looking for “free speech” are really looking for no consequence speech

        This is why I intentionally use “free speech” instead of free speech. Free speech is important and and essential part of every society.

  • @[email protected]
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    552 years ago

    despite what “free speech” absolutists would like to believe, the vast majority of the world does not wish to tolerate hate, racism, and bigotry. refusing to accept these is not suppression, it’s maintaining healthy and welcoming communities.

    it’s no different than swimming pools having a basic “no shitting in the pool” policy. if you want to shit in the pool, you are going to have to go swim with others that are ok with swimming in shitty water.

    with that said, I hear exploding-heads may be what you’re looking for

    • @[email protected]OP
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      32 years ago

      “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear”

      I personally believe that a community that support free speech is going to be healthier on the long run than one that doesn’t.

      exploding-heads seem to have rules against not being authentic, trolling and slurs

      • @[email protected]
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        2 years ago

        You should read about the paradox of tolerance and why free speech should be limited to what doesn’t hurt or limit others’ access to freedom.
        Being able to trash talk minorities (completely random example obviously) is not free speech, it’s hate speech that will ultimately devolve into atrocities.

        Also, please share the kind of things that you think should be allowed without naming them (in full details like “racist slurs”, or “calls to violence against a minority”, or “cryptoscams”) , I think it could be interesting.

        • @[email protected]OP
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          12 years ago

          Censorship is also a gateway to disasters and history is filled with examples. I cannot read french but i can understand that your instance has rules against trolling. I have been accused of being a troll by some in this thread so if i was in your instance i could technically have been censored.

      • @[email protected]
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        92 years ago

        It doesn’t mean people have to listen to what you’re telling them, and it certainly doesn’t mean that if someone doesn’t want to hear it you have a duty to say it. Cowards afraid of personal responsibility use this argument.

        If any rules at all, particularly ones about no trolling or slurs, bother you than you don’t want freedom of speech at all. You want freedom from consequences for your speech. Grow up.

        • @[email protected]OP
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          22 years ago

          Nobody is forcing you to follow this thread. What I’m looking for is stated in the title: a list of instances that support free speech

          • Veraticus
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            32 years ago

            Uh as you pointed out free speech means you are required to interact with opinions you find offensive.

            Are you saying you don’t support free speech, snowflake? If you do you’ll stay in this thread.

          • @[email protected]
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            102 years ago

            Sorry, I thought thought I had the right to tell you what you didn’t want to hear.

            Go back to Twitter. You obviously don’t recognize freedom of speech when it’s happening right infront of you.

      • @[email protected]
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        2 years ago

        Their rule agains slurs obviously isn’t enforced considering it’s full of anti-trans slurs and “jokes” about trans folk killing themselves.

        Do you really think that a community that’s full of nothing but hate and amazing posts like “why do women disrespect or avoid nice guys and go for the players and bad boys” is gonna be healthier long-term than one that fosters respectful discussion?

        • @[email protected]OP
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          22 years ago

          Censorship doesn’t promote discussion, it goes against it. I’m not looking for a community where only hate is allowed, i’m looking for instances that support free speech.

          • @[email protected]
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            2 years ago

            Allowing hate also kills discussion - I don’t see particularly many trans users joining in with the “fun” over on exploding heads, for example.

            Every single “free speech” website ends up turning into a hateful circlejerky echo chamber where discussion that doesn’t align with the agenda is shut down hard.

            • @[email protected]
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              32 years ago

              That’s the irony. “Free speech” platforms are some of the most locked-down, censored places.

        • @[email protected]
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          22 years ago

          And when you start banning speech arbitrarily to “protect people” you are creating the mechanisms by which government can prevent “speaking truth to power”.

          For example look at the pandemic and the “truth” fact-checks by the big social media companies. Sure nobody cares now because they were censoring anti-vax loonies but next think you know there’s a popular leftist movement and it’s designated as dangerous and censored by force across the internet- using same mechanisms built during COVID.

          We cannot give an inch to the government. Every overstep is power they will never give up willingly again.

          • @[email protected]
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            52 years ago

            I’m unsure what your point is. Are you talking about social media companies, or are you talking about the government? Because free speech is about censorship from the government, not private corporations

            • @[email protected]
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              2 years ago

              Federal government pressured social media companies to do this. It was all in the name of fighting misinformation. Which again - is fine now but it doesn’t take much imagination to see how this can go wrong should the wrong person be elected.

              Large monopolistic companies are in many ways extensions of the state.

          • @[email protected]
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            112 years ago

            See now, words have meanings. Most words aren’t open to your feelings.

            Lies

            Vitriol

            When you’re ready to actually discuss this like a normal person instead of a troll, please let me know.

  • Greyscale
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    372 years ago

    In the same vein as “States rights to do what?”, I want to ask: Free speech to say what?

    • @[email protected]
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      102 years ago

      There are still a lot of caveats. For example, your server hosting provider can block you for posting objectionable content, like anti-LGBT references. If you host at home, you ISP can ban you. Then comes the domain extension. The domain extentions are controlled by some company or the other, like .com is managed by verizon, .zip is managed by Google etc. They, or the domain provider can also terminate your contract.

      Onion domains may be a solution, but if you post seriously objectionable content, like leaking CIA secrets, you can expect someone to knock on your door soon.

      • Big P
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        42 years ago

        The only real free speech instance is if you all go out on a boat together to international waters

        • @[email protected]
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          32 years ago

          Then you’re beholden to whatever the instance owner wants you to do, and your users have to follow instance rules

            • Big P
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              42 years ago

              Then you’re beholden to your service providers

              • @[email protected]
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                12 years ago

                Walk outside onto the street corner and start shouting all the speech that you’re supposedly being censored for here. Free speech doesn’t guarantee you the right to say what you want on other people’s platforms.

            • @[email protected]
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              22 years ago

              Please direct your attention up a couple comments where someone specifically covered the difficulty in doing so

    • @[email protected]
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      22 years ago

      Not exactly true. Isn’t there like one instance that everyone defederated from because it was 100% Chinese propaganda?

    • @[email protected]OP
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      32 years ago

      Most don’t. Your instance geddit.social seem to have strict rules, they mention “misinfomation” and violent ideologies which is very vague. According to most government green activists are labelled as violent.

      • @[email protected]OP
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        12 years ago

        I don’t remember saying that. What i asked for is a list of instances that support free speech. Most popular instances like lemmy.ml and lemmy.world don’t seem to support it as they censor even basic swear words /slurs

        • @[email protected]
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          82 years ago

          What do you mean by free speech? You want to share classified government information? Wanna tell people how to buy drugs online? Share links to torrents and other piracy websites? Or do you just want to call people slurs and tell trans people to kill themselves?

            • @[email protected]
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              2 years ago

              Which definition of “free speech” are you using? Do you want “free speech” as defined by US law, which heavily regulates what you can say? Or are you using the Canadian legal definition? How about Article 19 of the UDHR?

              Does your definition of “free speech” include hate speech? How about disinformation? Slander? Planning to murder the President of the USA or the King of the Commonwealth Realms? Organising genocide? Child pornography?

                • @[email protected]
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                  92 years ago

                  So you’d be fine with a free speech instance hosted in, say, Saskatchewan, Canada; where their laws prohibit online hate speech targeted towards groups such as trans people and ethnic/religious minorities?

        • forcequit [she/her]
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          222 years ago

          free speech for who? about what? according to who?

          what are you looking to say that you feel you can’t?

          • @[email protected]
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            22 years ago

            Wdym “free speech for who” and “about what”? Ain’t really “free speech” if it’s limited in who it applies to. By that standard, North Korea has free speech, as long as you’re a member of a well-connected family speaking in support of the government.

  • HSL
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    52 years ago

    This thread has been borderline against rule #2 for a few hours now. Plus it’s turning into a repeat of a conversation from last week, so rule #4. Locking.

  • @[email protected]
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    162 years ago

    I think burgitt.moe and exploding heads is supposedly all about free speech. And of course the latter is now basically haven for hate speech so this is why people tend to put in rules.

  • @[email protected]
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    382 years ago

    yeah sure, just reply to my comment with a list of the things you want to be able to say that you cant say here and ill point you in the right direction.

      • Ardipithecus [he/him]
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        112 years ago

        Free speech isn’t some magic phrase that exists in a vacuum. All online communities have restrictions on what can be said (most basically, violent threats as an example). Say whatever you want, but be ready to accept those consequences.

        Maybe this is a bad assumption, but I would guess you’re from the US (like me). Our First Amendment protects our speech from “Government Interference” (still not totally true, but w/e). Free Speech doesn’t mean consequence free speech in various spaces.

        Regardless, you admitted earlier you’re upset you can’t use slurs so this is probably falling on deaf ears…

      • @[email protected]
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        272 years ago

        yeah yeah yeah I hear you, but what im asking you is: what is it exactly that you want to say, that you apparently can’t say here?

        personally, I have said everything I want to say and have had zero problems. free speech up the wazoo, ya know?

        • @[email protected]OP
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          22 years ago

          The instance you are in pawb.social for example have rules against cryptocurrencies, nfts and “misinformation”

          • @[email protected]
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            272 years ago

            yeah I dont really care to talk about crypto, nfts, and misinformation there. Im more there to look at cute furries and technology.

            there are other spaces for those things, and if I wanted to post misinformation id undelete my Facebook account.

            you haven’t answered the question lol.

            • @[email protected]OP
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              12 years ago

              I would like to reply to all sort of comment and idea according to free speech

              in case you missed it

              • TheLepidopterists [he/him]
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                2 years ago

                Until you actually clarify everyone is going to assume you’re mad that you can’t say the n-word and are a huge bigot.

                EDIT: at this point, even if you clarify, I personally will assume you’re just covering your ass

              • @[email protected]
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                212 years ago

                ah you misunderstant, let me be more clear.

                what exactly is it that you wish to say/post that you cannot do here, in this comment section?

                • @[email protected]OP
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                  32 years ago

                  Do you have some understanding problems? I created this thread asking if there’s a list of instances that support free speech, what i would like to reply in general i already said to you two times

  • sylver_dragon
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    192 years ago

    One great thing about Lemmy, you can always start your own instance. However, I strongly suspect that you will quickly find your instance defederated from just about every major instance. The thing is, that “free speech” doesn’t mean other people have to put up with anything you say. It does mean that you are free to go about saying whatever you want and are free from prior Government restraint on your speech. That isn’t completely without limits however, making specific or terroristic threats have generally been ruled to not be protected speech. You can also be held accountable, after the fact, for the effects of your speech.

    For example, you are free to yell “fire” in a crowded theater, no matter how many people incorrectly state otherwise. And, in fact, if there is a fire in said theater, you really should. However, if you yell “fire” in a crowded theater, with the intention to cause panic, and that panic results in injury or death, you will be held accountable for your negligence. It’s not the speech which is illegal, it’s the negligence. Government limitation on speech has to be very narrow and have a vary good reason for doing so. That’s a high bar which many laws have failed to meet.

    All that is to say, “free speech” is about Government action, not private action. Once you are on my property, I don’t have to tolerate your speech. If you show up on my front lawn and start screaming “I hate puppies!”, it’s my right to tell you to get the fuck off my property. And, the police will assist me in enforcing that right. Though, at that point the issue is trespass and not your speech. There is some limiting of my property rights when I am operating as a commercial entity; but, telling someone to leave, because I don’t like what they are saying, is not among those limitations. Technically, I could run a store front and tell anyone to leave who states “Nazi’s are bad”. Yes, they are objectively right, but it’s my property and I can restrict speech on my property in that way. The same logic applies to online forums.

    That brings us around to your request and later response to someone asking about the limitations you dislike:

    Doesn’t seem true, most instances have a long list or rules and doesn’t seem to tolerate basic slurs

    So ya, that’s not a “free speech” issue. The Government isn’t doing anything to you. It’s just that no one wants to be around you. You’ve decided to act in a way which many of the major Lemmy instance owners don’t want on their servers. And it’s their right to tell you to leave. Maybe, instead of looking for a Lemmy instance to support your anti-social behavior, take some time to reflect on why it seems that you are being isolated. As the old saw goes:

    If everyone around you seems to be an asshole, try looking in a mirror.

    • @[email protected]
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      32 years ago

      That’s a whole lot of words for what amounts to pedantry over the specific meaning of something where the intended meaning was both conveyed and understood

  • ᴇᴍᴘᴇʀᴏʀ 帝
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    272 years ago

    I doubt there are truly any. Even on the free speech advocating instances, I imagine if you started posting terrorist threats and/or scat porn you’d quickly find their limits on free speech (bonus points for combining the two in one post).

    If you just want to say nasty things about minorities (which these kinds of posts are often code for) or hype some crypto scam then there are instances for that.