Let’s say just like for example like MacOS. It’s awesome we have so many tools but at the same time lack of some kind of standardization can seem like nothing works and you get overwhelmed. I’m asking for people that want to support Linux or not so tech-savy people.
I’m a very casual Linux user and in my experience, I’ve NEVER had a problem with a documented solution that didn’t require going down a rabbit hole of other references.
Something like this: “To get the trackpad to work with Ubuntu, make sure you’ve installed the hergelbergelXX package.” (No link, find it on your own!)
Visit the HergelBergelXX page. To install Hergelbergel on Ubuntu, you must install the framisPortistan Package Manager. (No link!)
On the FramisPortistan GitHub readme, we discover it requires the JUJU3 database system to be installed. “JUJU3 may cause conflicts with installed USB devices under Ubuntu” JUJU2, which shipped with Ubuntu, is no longer supported. Also we recommend Archie&Jughead Linux over other distributions.
And this essentially never stops.
All of this is comparatively a happy result—I actually DID post a question on linuxnoobs about getting my trackpad to work with Ubuntu… and have not had a single reply. I have no idea how to find out how to make it work.
I had similar stories getting Wireless Networking to work on some devices before. Good thing is, there are drivers for most, if not all, default hardware interfaces directly in the kernel nowadays and if a device has any sort of popularity it will be supported before long if it isn’t out of the box.
I’m not talking about a long-ago problem. I’m talking about a current install of Ubuntu.
Yes, presumably on hardware that’s just a bit too old or rare. Might be unlucky as Linux compatibility isn’t high up on OEMs lists
Hat a problem with WLAN on a laptop when I tried to install fedora. The solution was to install Linux mint with LAN\internet and let the driver manager figure it all out.
Maybe that helps.
Whether any OS could ever just work isn’t even going to solve the issue.
Getting OEMs to sell laptops and desktops in Best Buy (or the like) that have Linux installed and is properly supported — that is what will help solve the issue.
Maybe we are too used to Linux working on anything but with some imperfection.
And yet it again leads to oficial supported hardware.
having it just work is a necessary step to gett there
When there exists an operating system that can satisfy that qualification, I’ll concede the point. Until then, OEM and retail support is what matters.
you can’t because it’s explicitly against the whole point of having endless choices. when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.
hardware compatibility is also a huge problem. for everyone that says “it works fine for me” there are a thousand others for whom it does not.
Yeah but you can have default choices that are guarantee to work.
And yeah preinstalled checked hardware would be ideal.
I feel like there’s also the point that on Mac OS a lot of stuff “just works” because everything else just doesn’t work at all. I have a number of things that just aren’t going to work at all on Mac. Linux is obviously much more permissive, which leads to a lot more kinda working stuff that just wouldn’t work at all on Mac.
I get downvoted to oblivion when I point out “just works” isn’t true.
You make a great point about endless choices.
No single UI, no single set of tools, those are massive barriers. And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
No so true after win 7, there’s a bunch of legacy menu.
It’s at least the same inconsistent toolset as everyone else. Windows 10? Ok go through this multi step process. 11? Ok this other slightly different process.
VS Linux you have 700 consistent toolsets, and 70000000 inconsistent toolsets.
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Look at the Steam Deck as an example:
- Linux is preinstalled
- Integrated hardware and software
- Immutable OS that is very hard to bork
- UI is Windows-like which is familiar to the target market
- Good value for the price
- Offered by a well-known and well-liked brand
- Marketed and advertised to the target market
We need more Linux devices like this to gain market share.
“People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware.”
The only way to make sure Linux works like that is to have a closed hardware environment. But it has to play nicely with other hardware and services (e.g. printers, webcams, etc + office documents, etc). It has taken a very long time for MacOS to get to this point, but people put up with Mac compromises because enough things worked smoothly.
I’ve just commented about this in another thread…but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.
but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.
Yeah. I consider myself somewhat tech savvy (I do software development for work) and I had a really bad time installing mint on my desktop. I got it to work after a day but that was far more than a casually interested person would put up with.
System76 is doing that these days. They put extra hardware support for their Linux distro TuxedoOS and I’ve heard good things.
Edit: System76 make PopOS and Tuxedo computers make TuxedoOS
I think you meant Pop!_OS (is developed by System76). TuxedoOS is developed by Tuxedo Computers, which is a European Linux focused hardware company.
That said, the point stands… there are hardware companies making Linux supported devices.
Sorry, I mixed those up. Thanks for the correction
You got it. The moment you surface the idea that there are multiple distros or DEs you’ve missed the goal the thread is suggesting. Presintalled, customized software built for the hardware is the way to ease people in with zero tweaking, which is crucial for newcomers.
I think this was Steve Jobs’ primary skill. He could see a clear vision of the product people didn’t know they wanted. Bottom to top, from the hardware to run on, to the typeface their apps used; he knew that the best user experiences happened when every level of the stack harmonized to create a very finely tuned user experience.
Unfortunately, the people who are that good usually don’t work for free. We’re very fortunate that Valve is choosing to open source their work and keep their SteamDeck platform an open one.
He shipped enough clunkers (and terrible design decisions) that I never bought the mythification of Jobs.
In any case, the Deck is a different beast. For one, it’s the second attempt. Remember Steam Machines? But also, it’s very much an iteration on pre-existing products where its biggest asset is pushing having an endless budget and first party control of the platform to use scale for a pricing advantage.
It does prove that the system itself is not the problem, in case we hadn’t picked up on that with Android and ChromeOS. The issue is having a do-everything free system where some of the do-everything requires you to intervene. That’s not how most people use Windows (or Android, or ChromeOS), and it’s definitely not how you use any part of SteamOS unless you want to tinker past the official support, either. That’s the big lesson, I think. Valve isn’t even trying to push Linux, beyond their Microsoft blood feud. As with Google, it’s just a convenient stepping stone in their product design.
What the mainline Linux developer community can learn from it, IMO, is that for onboarding coupling the software and hardware very closely is important and Linux should find a way to do that on more product categories, even if it is by partnering with manufacturers that won’t do it themselves.
Underlying kernel aside, I think that the Steamdeck’s SteamOS is an excellent example of how “easy to use” != “smaller feature-set”. I’ve heard countless times from apple dudes that the reason that their stuff allegedly “just works” is because of the lack of some functionally that if present would overwhelm the user. You know, as if ios and android don’t share fundamentally the same user interface principles. But they do have a point, a green user can be overwhelmed when presented with a huge feature set all at once. Yet, despite SteamOS literally having a full-blown desktop environment, the UI frankly is way less confusing than my Xbox. It just goes to show that it’s not about the number of features, it’s about how they’re presented. Power users don’t mind digging into a (well designed) settings menu to enable some advanced functionality, and keeping those advanced features and settings (with reasonable defaults) hidden around the corner behind an unlocked door helps the newbie get started with confidence.
Yeah exactly.
But what about casual usage like office? The option to choose OS preinstalled on the laptops or desktop would be beneficial.
But Microsoft holds its monopolistic grip.
An easy way to import/export Flatpaks would be really convenient. On Windows, I can easily move around software using a usb drive to a computer that may not be connected to the internet. I’d have no clue how to do that on Linux aside from AppImages
But due to fragmentation etc. I’d guess that such portable flatpaks would be huge, as they’d need to carry all dependencies in case the other end is missing some
For all its faults at least you don’t need to chmod+x on windows. Ironic since linux is usually more permissable.
More appealing? Linux runs basically all server infrastructure where even Microsoft bent the knee for Azure & Windows Subsystem for Linux. If we are talking about Desktop Linux, it will remain popular with those building software for easier/better dev tooling & wanting to better understand the systems their production code is run on. As software becomes more intergral to our lives & knowing how to write/debug it rises, folks will slowly keep trickling in as the have for decades where more & more software is treating Linux (& the web, & since BSDs, et al. are running similar software such as GTK they are also included) as a primary target. The other desktop OSs continue to shoot themselves in the foot injecting ads into the OS or denying system-level access to the machine you own.
A would say a better focus is mobile Linux… as casual users have migrated away from desktop OSs, where Android & iOS’s walls are holding them captive.
By telling users to change their mindset, by showing em how control is important and how the “just werks” mentality imposed by Microsoft is more detrimental than anything.
“Just works” is not a mentality imposed by Microsoft, and has nothing to do with loss of control. It’s simply (a consequence of) the idea that things which can be automated, should be. It is about good defaults, not lack of options.
It was literally the tag line for Windows 98 I think!
The gag was that it just (barely) works.
On top of being preinstalled, we also need google search-able instructions that avoid the terminal altogether. People are afraid of the terminal, it doesn’t matter why, it just is.
Currently, most solutions to linux problems come in the form of terminal commands. We would have to start creating a whole new troubleshooting forum where instructions avoid the terminal and are just lists of buttons to press in a GUI. Probably helpful screenshots too.
Of course I have no idea if some things even have GUIs at all, like configuring user groups and permissions or firewall settings, someone would need to make them. Not to mention every DE or program would need a different set of instructions, GNOME or KDE, firewalld or iptables. It’ll be a lot of work.
This is the biggest thing. I’m very comfortable in Bash, but that is not the norm; the second my wife needs to run
sudo apt get, she’s out, fuck thatI will say part of problem is knowledgeable volunteers will almost always want to just cp and paste a command string over the docs needed to walk someone through doing it in the current version of GUI.
I’ve done both. Repeatable user instructions for GUIs IS NOT FUN. Maybe if we can get some automation to turn vague directions into detailed ones and better yet testable (supporting something like OpenQA) it might help lower the burden for a project to do so.
I searched but never ever found a website with Linux help specially for non IT people. This is seriously needed. Everywhere I’ve looked, gatekeepers with no clue about the GUI solutions, insist people use the command line for day to day user tasks. Sure things vary between desktop environments, but it’s important people learn about their desktop. It’s how they get comfortable, and stay. And not stuck reliant on strangers having to spoon feed them cryptic text commands each time. I’d be happy to help contribute. As I’ve found GUI ways to do nearly everything.
I’m tech literate and use the command line daily. I enjoy how powerful it is but I also enjoy the ease of point and click on windows.
After a hard day coding at work I much prefer poking around windows than using a command line on Linux.
But that’s several pages of point and click vs. a few lines to copy and paste,
Do not copy and paste into Bash if you don’t understand the commands you’re pasting in
Who said I don’t understand them? I’ve done point and click tutorials. They don’t only take forever to follow, they also take forever to make.
Look at this monstrosity:
Holy shit, the copy and paste parts are the easiest parts of them all
Fair; that was mostly a general warning, not necessarily directed at you, because many people do copypaste terminal commands without knowing what they are actually doing.
As long as you understand what a command does, absolutely go for it. No point typing that shit out when somebody else already has
Honestly maybe we need something like a portable guided tour format (you the “see what’s new in …” things but from strangers for specific thing).
That’s an interesting idea, but the problem with UIs is you need some kind of a format to interact with all of the toolkits and legacy programs just to be able to figure out where on the screen the button you need to click is
Right. I feel like maybe Free Desktop standard, tight integration with top toolkits (qt, gtk, etc) and a some image recognition for fall back.
Copy pasting strange commands people will not memorise does not solve it! To keep non IT people on Linux, they need to find out how their desktop GUI works, so they are in control and happy to stay. The aim is not to use the minimum possible time writing the tips. Thrusting an unfamiliar environment on people is sure to scare them away, and is bad usability.
Thrusting in an unfamiliar environment is how I got an STD
Thank you thank you thank you for posing this question.
This is the biggest issue by far with open source stuff in general, and as a non-programmer who wants to use more and more of it, user unfriendliness hamstrings so much.
I don’t know the answers but I can tell you for a fact that if open source in general is serious about broader adoption, this needs to be occupying 50% of everybody’s open source discussion time, at least.
What I know is the standard “fuck you read my 19 pages of 1s and 0s” is the wrong answer.
Maybe good design is just really hard. I don’t know, I’ve never tried to do it. Seems like the sort of thing that might take three thousands iterations.
Needs to be pre installed, most people don’t know how to reset their PC, let alone install a new OS.
ChromeOS does this well because it’s android, a walled garden that users aren’t allowed to break. You can buy it at Walmart, and it works well.
Other big “consumer” distro projects (Debian, Ubuntu, fedora, rhel, etc) are similar, especially if you’re installing stable releases on hardware that is supported.
The question for me is what do users want their OS to do? My guess is internet, office, print, scan, photos, games, updates, and get out of the way. Almost all big distros will give you that experience already, as long as you don’t expect to play Windows games or pick a specialized gaming distro.
Users who want to step outside using supported repos are back to googling for a solution when things are broken, and should see themselves as part of the tech-savvy group that need to fend for themselves.
So reading all of your responses
- Tested and preinstalled hardware
- One resource to solve the issue not many
- Customizablity when needed
- Easy rollback when something breaks
- Changing people mindset that Linux isn’t for desktops
Does anyone have more?
I think Linux works so good right now, that most of the appeal will come from third party vendors supporting Linux. The few anticheats and big apps like photoshop and sony vegas are used by many and are still a big obstacle which Linux can’t magically fix that easily.
What I’ve also noticed makes it appeal a lot to the people around me, is that when suggesting Linux, I also offer them tech support free of charge for whatever problem they have.
It depends on which user and their workflow. For example, Graphics Designer use Photoshop compare to GIMP because of native CMYK for printing as well as non-destructive effects. Most people will be fine using GIMP.
I bring this up as I tend to see people on Lemmy and even in online space that talks about open source that would bitch about “normies” being too stubborn for not trying Linux or any open-source projects in general but never think about how much compromise they had to do if they do go down the open-source route.
Mac OS is not a “just works” experience. It is heavily tied to icloud and Apple services and everything is janky.
Maybe if Mac OS matured a bit I would consider using it but for now it is in a broken unusable state.
If you appreciate autonomy, avoid MacOS. Their whole business model is to suck you into their technological ecosystem. The fact that their stuff works in any way outside of their expensive, walled garden is unintentional.
I was going to refute your comment but to be honest I use it largely because of those features. I’ve used MacOS for over 30 years and recently bought an AMD workstation for development work when my MacBook didn’t cut it anymore. It would be a good experiment to try an all local MacOS experience to see how it stacks up and I think it would probably be ok. You can install a lot of desktop apps using Brew to keep your system up to date. The main advantage that Mac has over Linux is that a lot of corporate software is available that otherwise can only be obtained on Windows. When I realized that windows in a VM on Linux wasn’t for me I more or less converted my Linux machine to a server for most use cases.
