For as much as Linux nerds (myself absolutely included) complain about distros like Ubuntu and Manjaro, I’d still take either one over Windows or MacOS any day.
Ubuntu has Snap and ads and stuff, but I thought Manjaro was considered good. What’s wrong with it? It’s supposed to be Arch based.
Replied to a different comment about this: https://lemmy.world/comment/12365020
new to Linux, my first distro was and is Manjaro. what do people complain about? i love it and am glad i left windows for it :)
This website has a decent summary: https://manjarno.pages.dev/
TL:DR: Repeated dumb mistakes that a (relatively) big distro like Manjaro should not be making. Haven’t heard any drama in the past year or so though, so maybe they’ve finally gotten their act together. Time will tell.
679 days since the last incident.
I feel like this incident is over blown. The weird holding back for 2 weeks without testing is a valid complaint though.
Idk, it worked well for me. Been on fedora for a while now.
It’s too “easy” for all the kiddos who tie their self-worth to their ability to follow installation instructions.
Mac OSX isn’t bad… so long as you sell it your soul, and don’t want freedom in return, it’s great 👍.
I kid… mostly - it’s iOS that is horrifying, but Mac OSX is still Unix (tho not GNU), so not anywhere within leagues of Microdick.
And - possibly dumb question - couldn’t you always just run a Linux VM at near-native speed, and get the benefits of both?
I’d say iOS is still unix too, just rootless.
Mac is BSD, and the Darwin kernel is open source.
It’s worth noting that Apple has (for example) gone so far as to replace bash with zsh just because the GPL v3 was too copyleft for them to handle. In other words, fuck Apple.
That’s the point of the BSD license.
Exactly; fuck BSD too.
Unless you’re a copyleft developer your opinion on the decisions of the creators is hilariously irrelevant.
Right decision but for the wrong reason.
Oh, I thought it was because zsh is better.
I forgot about the latter, thanks for the reminder:-).
MacOSX is great, other than the fact that it only runs on insanely overpriced, un-upgradeable and irreparable hardware. And that you have what I would consider limited control over it.
Other than all that, yeah:-)
Still not comparable to Windows though, imho.
Its sins are just of a different sort - e.g. you don’t need to repair or upgrade those machines so often, bc they work so well for so long as it is, plus other than for gaming, who even upgrades machines these days to begin with?
For non-gaming, Macs are great machines. So too are Linux. While Windows sux ass no matter what. Thus that’s the dividing line, imho.
Well my point was that’s not a software problem, it’s a hardware problem.
I mean… a Mac machine will run non-Mac OSX software. Pretty much everything can run linux, with a little effort put into it:-) (unless somehow these M chips have prevented that? even if so, surely it’s only a matter of time before someone cracks that barrier)
But yeah, it’s definitely a choice. e.g., Apple does not even sell cheap Macs, whereas machines intended to run Windows can be bought all up and down the scale - though I recall at various points in time, comparing equivalently-equipped machines, Apple ones were pound-for-pound actually cheaper than their Windows equivalents. This is ofc b/c of the monopolistic practices: when you rigidly control the hardware, you are able to order in bulk, and when you order in bulk, you are able to get large discounts from the supplier!
Though surely nobody was arguing to purchase a Mac, not knowing who or what Apple is or is about? Installing Arch Linux is also known to be somewhat ah… “tricky”, so if we are comparing things like ease-of-use, the question gets back to OP’s “which distro?” And it’s all a matter of choice - what you want to get out of it, and which constraints you want to live underneath.
But anyway, we were talking about “Mac OSX”, which yeah, very much is limited to specific sets of hardware, and cannot be installed willy-nilly on any old machine, this is very much a true statement, to be paid very much attention to by anyone wanting to learn more, or use that in their purchasing / installation decisions:-). I was just saying that while Apple (& iOS) may be evil these days, Mac OSX itself kinda is great, caveat: if you can live with its restrictions, and moreover, those are MUCH less than Microsoft’s set of restrictions these days (whereas Linux has its own set of difficulties).
I mean… a Mac machine will run non-Mac OSX software.
Ah yes, the worst of both worlds! Wonderful!
I recall at various points in time, comparing equivalently-equipped machines, Apple ones were pound-for-pound actually cheaper than their Windows equivalents.
I don’t ever recall that…
I was only illustrating how Mac hardware is not identically the same as Mac software. They are tied together, yet distinct entities.
Your lack of recollection neither proves nor disproves anything at all. If you doubt me, look it up? (since surely if I did so for you, you would distrust that as well? 🤪)
I did not downvote you btw.
You can use UTM on an M1 or up Macbook and iOS/iPadOS:
https://getutm.app/
It is not VirtualBox yet, but it is moving fast. And thank $deity it’s not Oracle… like VirtualBoxHow does this work with containers?
“always” in this case is when you have two or more gpus in your system, which limits the ability to “just” run a vm considerably.
Ah, for gaming, yes Macs are not fantastic gaming machines that’s for sure.
Then again, Linux has long been known to have issues with gaming as well, especially with an Nvidia card…
Unless you use Steam, and then both work, kinda?
Still it seems like it’s Linux and Mac OSX on one side, and Microsoft left behind thousands of years in the past, except maybe for gaming where literally an old Windows running on a VM may run the widest selection of games?
But I still don’t see the logic of grouping Macs together with Windows, even for gaming.
For VMs, I expected more someone to bring up the switch to the M1 chipset, a huge setback for VMs definitely even if temporary, though I’m old enough to remember that Linux and Macs both running Intel were often easier to get things running on than Linux on Intel vs. Linux on AMD. But things definitely change over time, as to what is easiest at any given moment.
Microsoft sucks tho - now THAT’S universal. Can’t we all just get together, united in our hate for it?! (/s, or, well, actually… not!)
Edit: hey, anyone want to start like an anti-Windows or I-fucking-hate-fucking-Windows community? I’ll join it today if you do!? :-)
couldn’t you always just run a Linux VM at near-native speed, and get the benefits of both?
The obvious downside is that Linux is no longer the host OS. MacOS or Windows would be closed source code managing your hardware. And any VM could only be as fast as the host OS allows it to be.
The host OS is likewise limited, but more by hardware, so it might be a small performance tradeoff, depending on whether, as you brought up, you need Linux to be ultimately in control rather than to simply run some software.
So that would not always work, ofc… but it sometimes would!:-)
The company that laid me off let me keep my Mac which was a nice parting gift. I don’t think I’d ever buy one myself. They’re just way to expensive.
I hoped for that at my previous job, and they said it could happen… but it was never going to, and it was a false hope offered. Why do that to me man…? 😭
Then I come to my current job, and they have a super old Mac laptop that was barely holding on that nobody else wanted, and I’m like “yes please”!
Bc if its Windows vs. Mac, and especially if “nothing” isn’t even an option, then a million times out of a million I will choose super old, barely holding on Mac that nobody else wants.:-)
It’s a single SSH command away from my work Linux, and it has MacVim, tons of other open source software available, plus a bunch of stuff that only Mac OSX has, like Preview and other fairly nice tools, which have open source equivalents like ImageMagick and gimp, but aren’t nearly as easy to use.
I don’t need a nice car, and I went without one entirely until I moved to the Midwest where it becomes absolutely necessary, but it’s essential to have a good computer for me:-).
A VM doesn’t change the underlying OS collecting data from you
Privacy and data collection-wise MacOS is fine. It’s their main selling point. Doesn’t even force updates on you. I know it’s a low bar, but damn Windows bar is at the floor at this point.
Privacy and data collection-wise MacOS is fine
At best it’s “okay but not great”.
It’s their main selling point.
The millions of people who log into Facebook on their MacBooks prove that’s not true.
I mean, if you log in to Facebook at all, whatever MacOS collects is a drop in a bucket in comparison.
Yes that’s my point
You have no point.
MacOS collects a large amount of data compared to Linux (although not even close to windows). Take a look at their tosdr page and this
I didn’t say it’s perfect, but it’s not terrible. And I think that page is mostly about Apple services, like iCloud and stuff, not MacOS specifically. It’s not necessary to use the services.
Yeah, that’s what network-level blocking is for.
Zenarmor ftw.
damn had not heard of that and I have so many friends fucking with OPNsense. Thanks!
I had to look it up (e.g. https://www.extremetech.com/internet/317371-evaluating-apples-data-collection-in-macos-big-sur) and damn, I didn’t know that they collected and sent THAT detailed of info!? (and perhaps they didn’t, until Big Sur)
Even so, as the other reply mentioned, it’s still leagues away from Windows at this point. But yeah, fair then that both Windows and Mac OSX are doing it, while Linux is not.
Still, if you had to pick a machine for your grandma to use, or like either Windows or Mac at work (but not Linux, though lets say that there is a terminal SSH option to Linux available from either), I would pick Mac OSX. It’s fine if others would pick Linux for the former, but I don’t think Mac OSX is a bad choice there.
While Windows… urg, is basically synonymous with being a cuss word nowadays. Witch: “a pox be upon thee - nay, moresooth, may you be cursed to only use Windows for the rest of your days!” (Onlookers: “gasp! what could anyone have done to be cursed with that bad of a punishment!? I would not wish that upon even my worst enemy!?”) hehe:-P
That link doesn’t say what you think it does.
That Apple blocks you from running every program you put onto it until/unless it can be properly certified, and that “Big Sur can bypass any firewall restrictions the end-user attempts to create”? It’s true that it’s not nearly as bad as it may sound at first, and they even released a statement that:
We do not use data from these checks to learn what individual users are launching or running on their devices.
Notarization checks if the app contains known malware using an encrypted connection that is resilient to server failures.
These security checks have never included the user’s Apple ID or the identity of their device. To further protect privacy, we have stopped logging IP addresses associated with Developer ID certificate checks, and we will ensure that any collected IP addresses are removed from logs.
Though I also understand that if someone wants the ultimate in privacy, it’s difficult to trust such a corporate promise, especially one like Apple known to hide or lie about such things. (Edit: also… “developer ID certificate checks”, so if you don’t register with Apple as a known developer then…?)
I still use Mac OSX myself, but if someone wants to avoid that and use Linux for this reason, I’m not going to argue with them - whereas I would push back a little bit if a friend were to tell me they planned to put Windows (as the primary OS) onto a machine.
Whatever it is it’s the wrong Linux
You dropped this -> /s
They’re deadly serious. Every Linux is the wrong Linux.
BSD is the only way.
(hears the rumble of the hurd in the distance)
Ubuntu
I activate Ubuntu Pro
Greed is good.
💥 Free for up to 5 machines 💣
What are the benefits/features that this adds?
10 years security updates, plus security patches for community packages (instead of waiting on community patches). It’s basically the corporate support plan provided for free for up to 5 machines per account.
security patches for community packages (instead of waiting on community patches)
I’m not sure I understand that part. Is Canonical implementing the patches instead of the open source project/package developers? I’m confused.
Exactly. In Debian, the community implements security patches. In Ubuntu, Canonical implements security patches for a part of the repo (main), the community implements them for the remainder (universe). This has been the standard since Ubuntu’s inception. With Ubuntu Pro, Canonical implements security patches for the whole repo (main and universe).
So they’re actively involved in the development of open source projects then?
Ubuntu is awesome Change my mind
What’s the hate with ubuntu? Or is it just elitism/gatekeeping?
Pretty much. Canonical made a few questionable choices in the past but overall they’ve done a lot for the Linux community. And their distro is very good. There is a reason why distros choose it as their base.
Spent a ton of time trying to install GrapheneOS because web USB doesn’t work in snap version of chrome. How about letting me install the normal deb version? Nope, can’t let the user choose
Yeah, it’s fine. Haven’t had too much trouble in a good 10 odd years, once the WiFi drivers settled. Mind you I’m not fucking upgrading to 24.04 for another couple of weeks.
Whichever one you chose is the wrong one!
SteamOS.
That’s Arch BTW
It’s Arch-based, but if
distro = base
then
Mint = Ubuntu
Ubuntu = DebianMint = DebianAll hail nix, praise be to thee
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912 Distro
Sick Emo Philips reference, bro.
What? Why would you choose that over Baptist Church of Missouri SynodOS, you heretic?
Ah- then I have to dispute your theology on daemons.
Dual booting W11 and Linux Mint. I like linux, but can’t get adobe premiere to work satisfactorily there. There are also some softwares like a viewer for 3DS games on my modded 3DS that I can’t really use either
“She is adopted” - Arch user
Openbsd
Just a humble Arch Linux user here
It’s wonderful how the expression “humble Arch Linux user” manages to pack a contradiction in a mere 4 words.
Reactions:
Ubuntu: 😮why?
Manjaro: haven’t you managed to kill it yet?
Mint: ex windows guy?
Debian: 😃nice, how did you got to that decision?
Endeavour: 😃nice, how did you got to that decision?
Arch: 😃nice, how did you got to that decision?
Nix: 😃nice, how did you got to that decision?
OpenSUSE: 😃nice, how did you got to that decision?
…
Ubuntu: was the first distro that came up… hated it and went back to windows Manjaro: tried it after Ubuntu, was great for 2 months until it broke and I swapped to arch Mint: never used it Debian: used it once for a VM because it wasn’t canonical, but it was meh Endeavour: never used it Arch: it was great and I still use it for my cheap side laptop, but I forgot to update it for a month and it broke on my main laptop and I wasn’t good enough with Linux to fix it at the time so that computer runs Nix Nix: used it after arch broke and I was paranoid with having to fix stuff… still use it on my primary computer but am frustrated with how hard it is to develop in rust on
In my experience, nix works exceptionally well with Rust. Python and JavaScript are nastier, especially if the libraries use C extensions.
I think my problem comes from trying to compile for MUSL so I can use the binary in an alpine docker container… I’m working on setting up a docket development environment though, so here’s hoping it works
… Fedora?
Lol, forgot that very important one 😂
Reaction: 😃good choice! I think it is a good well distro for people coming to linux✌🏻
Yeah honestly I like to know what drew people to that distro.
Ubuntu: 😮why?
For a lot of people Ubuntu is the linux. Canonical is just good at marketing. For all it worth, Ubuntu is not the bad choice for average user who’s not into ricing and not bothered by bloat.
Manjaro: haven’t you managed to kill it yet?
I’ve been using Arch and Manjaro for couple years each and in my experience they both break regularly. But, for some weird reason, Arch Linux is praised, when Manjaro is shamed upon.
Mint: ex windows guy?
Aren’t we all?
The main problem with Manjaro is they hold updates to the repos back for to weeks, which in itself isn’t a problem but they don’t do the same for the AUR, meaning you’re almost guaranteed to have dependencie issues at some point. And a, very minor, issue is that in the past they have broken their forum site, but that hasn’t happened for a while now.
I’ve been using Arch and Manjaro for couple years each and in my experience they both break regularly. But, for some weird reason, Arch Linux is praised, when Manjaro is shamed upon.
No, there is not some weird reason but actual very good ones.
Things can break on a bleeding edge update scheme. That’s to be expected from time to time. But the questions are “why did it break” and “what is done to fix it”.
If something breaks on Archlinux it’s because of some new package with a issue that escaped testing. Then the fix come out as fast as possible (often within minutes even, but let’s assume hours as those things need to move through mirrors first…).
If something breaks on Manjaro it’s either because of the exact same reason as above, but 2 weeks later. Because Manjaro keeps back updates for two weeks “for stability reasons”, yet doesn’t do anything in those 2 weeks. So they just add the same problem later, completely defeating the argumant about stability. Oh, and fixes are of course kept back for 2 weeks, too, because… reasons.
Or it breaks because they fucked up their internal QA. For example by letting their certificates expire again and again and again and again… of by screwing up their very own pacman-wrapper and then ddos’ing the AUR for all users, not only Manjaro ones.
Or -speaking about the AUR- it breaks because they give their users full access to the Arch User Repository (without any warnings about user content being less reliable and used at your own risk) pre-installed. Also they do it on a system generally out-of-date because it lags 2 weeks behind. Which is not what AUR packages are build for (they assume up-to-date systems) and is a straight path to dependency hell and breakings… not because something went wrong but because the whole concept of an out-of-date system not running their own also 2-weeks behind version onf the AUR is idiotic. On the “plus” side they have an easy fix: blame the user, because he should obviously know that an pre-installed part of Manjaro is conceptionally flawed and shouldn’t be trusted.
Exactly that, AUR is mostly unusable in manjaro and manjaro is mostly unusable if you don’t have AUR packages, in my opinion.
Linux mint: ex windows guy? I take offence, I’m an ex-SuSE 4.2, ex-macOS, windows only at work guy. (My cinnamon is themed to have macOS ish appearance btw.) [and I lied, not ex-mac as such, I have a few macs round the house, and built my Linux machine to run games on steam/lutris, around a spare gfx card that came out of my classic Mac pro5,1]
Mint Cinnamon. Fight me.
Mint, judge me
PS anyone have any favorite resources for absolute tech illiterate noobs? I’m trying, but without a baseline understanding of the subject, it’s hard to find the right guides
WSLinux
Smarch
After several years I have landed on Debian with plain old gnome for my whole family. Boring as f***, but it just works. Currently untraining myself from opening my terminal on fresh boot to do pacman -Syu. Flatpacks have solved my need for updated software.
