As someone who grew up playing games like World of Warcraft and other AAA titles, I’ve seen how the gaming industry has evolved over the years—and not always for the better. One of the most disturbing trends is the rise of gacha games, which are, at their core, thinly veiled gambling systems targeting younger players. And I think it’s time we have a serious conversation about why this form of gaming needs to be heavily restricted, if not outright regulated.
Gacha systems prey on players by offering a sense of excitement and reward, but at the cost of their mental health and well-being. These games are often marketed as “free to play,” making them seem harmless, but in reality, they trap players in cycles of spending and gambling. You don’t just buy a game and enjoy its content—you gamble for the chance to get characters, equipment, and other in-game items. It’s all based on luck, with very low odds of getting what you want, which leads players to keep spending in hopes of hitting that jackpot.
This setup is psychologically damaging, especially for younger players who are still developing their sense of self-control. Gacha games condition them to associate spending money with emotional highs, which is the exact same mechanism that fuels gambling addiction. You might think it’s just harmless fun, but it’s incredibly easy to fall into a pattern where you’re constantly chasing that next dopamine hit, just like a gambler sitting at a slot machine. Over time, this not only leads to financial strain but also deeply ingrained mental health issues, such as anxiety, depression, and a lack of self-control when it comes to spending money.
Countries like Belgium and the Netherlands have already banned loot boxes and gacha systems, recognizing the dangers they pose, especially to younger players. The fact that these systems are still largely unregulated in many other regions, including the U.S., shows just how out of control things have gotten. The gaming industry has shifted from offering well-rounded experiences to creating systems designed to exploit players’ psychological vulnerabilities.
We need to follow Europe’s lead in placing heavy restrictions on gacha and loot boxes. It’s one thing to pay for a game and know what you’re getting; it’s another to be lured into a never-ending cycle of gambling for content that should be available as part of the game. Gaming should be about fun, skill, and exploration, not exploiting people’s mental health for profit.
It’s time for developers and legislators to take responsibility and start protecting the players, especially the younger ones, from these predatory practices.
Government should set up a site where companies using loot boxes have to open a tax box to know what tax they’ll pay that month, to keep things exiting, with the option to buy more tax boxes for a few million per box.
That’s hilarious. Unfortunately that is what is happening already. Large corporations are buying ridiculously low taxes by spending a few million up front.
The problem is the new wave of gacha games are really selling you on characters and Hoyoverse isn’t even hiding it anymore: The more money you pour into Zenless Zone Zero, the less clothes the Proxy wear in the unlockables. And they have characters for every sexual preference on Earth at this point.
It’s time for developers and legislators to take responsibility and start protecting the players, especially the younger ones, from these predatory practices.
They’re making fucking bank with these practices. It will have to be stopped by government regulation. Self-regulation of industries has literally never fucking worked once in history. Look at Boeing, which has had the FAA basically glad-handing it for 50 years and it’s falling apart at the seams (sometimes literally).
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
-Upton Sinclair
Even the ESRB, another example of gaming industry self-regulation, hasn’t stopped gaming companies marketing M-rated games to kids or really slowed down sales or access to such games to underage players at all. If anything, they use the M rating as a direct marketing tool to kids: “your parents wouldn’t want you to play this so you totally should”.
EDIT: autocorrect is dumb
Ah yes, the ESRB, the group built to avoid actual regulation.
I mean, I get it, to an extent, the MPAA was and is absolute dogshit and filled with weird right-wing Christians who don’t like things that show women’s sexual pleasure and a lot of other weird censorial decisions.
Like how Hillary Clinton wanted to ban GTA because of the Hot Coffee mod, when the actual “Hot Coffee” minigame wasn’t available in an easily accessible way.
So, to that extent, I can understand why they built that system to avoid idiot fucking puritans taking over the ratings sytem, but I generally agree, it’s become more of a taboo thing just like the “PARENTAL WARNING EXPLICIT LYRICS” just made people want that version more. (That really worked out, huh, Tipper Gore?)
Without actual enforcement, it becomes something cool for kids to get.
The AO rating is still the kiss-of-death for game content in North America, enforced by retailers. Even still, the ESRB only came about because the political climate at the time was very much “clean up your shit or we’ll do it for you.”
Then they come up with the rating system whose only enforcement is on the AO rating, and don’t bother to actually clean up their shit. As the post above yours mentioned, the problem is lack of enforcement anywhere outside the AO rating or even anyone involved actually caring. Devs and marketing teams push for M if they want to actually sell a game to kids above 7 years old, retailers will sell anything to anyone lest they lose out on the money, and parents who ask about it will just ask the kid who wants to buy the game and will lie about what the rating means. We can crab about movie ratings all we want, but at least most studios and theaters actually enforce the MPAA’s rating and parents know what movie ratings mean. Game ratings are basically like TV ratings, so irrelevant you wonder why they even bother.
I don’t know where you’re hearing retailers don’t enforce ratings. Yes, it happens uncommonly, but the FTC previously found ratings compliance was higher among video game retailers than at the box office, and not much has changed in the culture since then. I’ve worked at multiple retailers that sold video games, and the training for video games enforcement was always taken just as seriously as with alcohol sales.
Being the largest entertainment industry in the world now, video game publishers are serious about this stuff. Developers also still take steps to avoid a Hot Coffee situation from occurring again.
I wouldn’t say self-regulation has “literally never worked once in history”, but yes, not often. I would point to the ESRB as an example of self-regulation working in the games industry and being a positive for both the industry itself avoiding government regulation and for players. There are other examples too, but yes, they would be rare wins in general.
The ESRB didn’t require any developers to abandon their business model though. It was created so that the industry could continue doing what it was doing.
It was also created long long before developers had these predatory business models, where it basically shielded the industry from having goverment oversight on violence in games back in the 90s and such.
Working? They just put a small print about lootboxes, they don’t even raise the game’s rating to AO for having this literal gambling with money, they are useless.
ESRB’s been around for over 20 years before lootboxes, my guy.
Anyone saying it works is lieing. Even if they have examples. Most of the time when companies self regulate it is to maintain control and avoid regulation. It’s a delaying tactic that allows them to exploit the mechanisms longer and minisme the impact that proper accountability would bring.
If self regulation was feasible we would never even be discussing it. It wouldn’t be a concept we would have to think about. It would just be the way things work and have always worked.
The only reason those industry boards exist is due to an implicit or explicit threat of government regulation.
Yes, as I mentioned in my comment.
I mean, look how fast the ENTIRE industry shifted to battle passes (and still gacha) and away from “loot boxes” the very moment the first country said they’d consider regulation.
At least with battle passes its all laid out and its more a case of putting the play time in.
Assuming “we” is the US, write your state and federal representatives, not Lemmy. People might agree with you, but you’re preaching to the choir.
How about both? Writing your elected reps is definitely smart, but will be much more effective if there are numerous people calling for the same. I appreciate OP sharing their views, and catloaf sharing a specific action step all of us can do it we are concerned about this matter.
I worked for a few years as a gambling addiction counselor, and these types of games definitely prime people for addiction to gambling. Also, it’s worth noting that the demographic with the highest rates of gambling addiction are young men, aged 18-24.
Anyone that’s been to a casino can attest that major video game companies also make slot machines. The industry are aware of what they’re doing.
Countries like Belgium and the Netherlands have already banned loot boxes and gacha systems
Did they really? I certainly know that the lootboxes aren’t allowed here (rip my TF2 weapon paints), but I still could spend 10 euros on Genshin Impact, even if I had to use MasterCard.
I have zero interest in paying for lootboxes or other gambling crap paid with real money in games.
But games like Lost Ark were banned in The Netherlands and it took me a while to figure out why it didn’t show in my Steam store.
I wish there were other means instead of just outright banning games from stores (like Diablo Immortal for mobile also isn’t available in The Netherlands). It didn’t take me much to get around the ban and install Lost Ark anyway, so I figured if I can do that, then what’s stopping people with gambling problems from doing the same as well.
Also it seems wildly inconsistent when games are and aren’t allowed for us to download. Why should I be limited to the regulated games accessible because of other people’s gambling addictions? Feels like half the Steam library could be Thanos-snapped if it were just for lootboxes and transactions being present in games.
Look at the mobile game industry if cancer could manifest as a software this industry is spreading it like oil and gas.
As someone who plays a gacha game (Genshin Impact) I 100% agree. This shit should be kept the hell out of the hands of kids until their brain has at least matured to the point we’d let them go actual gambling.
That said, there’s certainly a spread of abusiveness in the games: some are very reasonable and could be played with no money or very little money because they’re generous with premium currencies and others are doing a sexy little dance while they steal your wallet.
Regulation around how much you can spend in a month would be reasonable, no kids would be reasonable, requiring clear and published probabilities and what those probabilities mean in terms of how many pulls would be a good start.
I can assure you most gacha players cannot tell you how many pulls you’d need to make for a 0.5% chance pull.
Also maybe outline estimated costs for winning wouldn’t be awful, but that’s maybe not feasible since there’s a lot of variability?
It’s funny that you mentioned Genshin because it’s probably one of the most predatory of all. Star rail isn’t really that bad, has much more generous pity. The new game that Hoyo just put out, however, zenless, is fucking terrifyingly predatory. They removed the pity reset or modified it entirely to make it even more disheartening and impossible for a regular players because they weren’t spending enough. In Genshin, your pity will not reset If you get a lower rank character, for the higher rank that you’re trying to get. In zenless, If you get a higher rank character, it will entirely reset your pity on everything. Lower rank and higher rank. This is designed so that if you’re trying to get a lower rank character specifically, to make it even more impossible. Add to that the fact that you get some sort of pity currency that can be used in several ways, all of them that look like some store or shop for you to spend money on. It’s crazy, these games are more elaborate than an actual casino where you just pull lever and spin something. Star rail even has slot machines in the divergent universe! It gives you three free spins, you can get negative effects, very rarely you’ll actually get something from the slot machine. That affects your entire gameplay experience for the rest of the divergent universe encounter.
In terms of kids versus adults, I would say that the distinction between them became much less clear after COVID, since some kids didn’t even get to finish high school in person. They went right into the adult world and started doing online learning. It was as if two entire years of their childhood was stripped from them and those learning experiences taken from them. Plus, hitting the age of 18 doesn’t magically make you wiser, or less susceptible to a bunch of things that can completely destroy your life. Like, that’s not how it works. It’s not like you turn 18 and magically you go “oh okay now I’m an adult, now I can mess up my life entirely, people are allowed to prey on me now since I’m no longer a kid anymore!” Young people are still so inexperienced in life and don’t understand that every decision that they make teaches them how the rest of their life is going to go. You spend 3 years playing these gachas, Now you’re much more likely to play another one that comes out like wuthering waves. Completely reset the cycle and start gambling again on something brand new.
From a completely humanitarian perspective, I think there should be strict limitations on what kind of predatory tactics you can include in these games for that reason alone. If you have such heavy monetization gambling, shouldn’t be considered a game anymore. Should literally have the word gambling in it. Just because these companies desire infinite amounts of money does not mean they should be able to muck up society and mess people up psychologically in my opinion
Wait, what do you mean about the pity system? It’s identical for between Genshin, Star Rail, and Zenless.
I think it’s, what, like 90 for 5 star, 10 for 4 star. Standard and Limited banner tracks their own counter. Pulling on one doesn’t reset the other.
Oh I wasn’t meaning to say it wasn’t predatory, merely that it’s honest about what it is. A LOT of other gacha/lootbox games are far more obscure about what’s going on and how you’re getting screwed and Genshin at least has it all clearly outlined and easily (ish) understood.
Also, I was mentally using 21 as the gambling age since I’m an American and we don’t really trust those shifty 18-year-olds with anything other than being shot at in a war.
I take your point, though, but at some point, you have to shrug and call someone a full-fledged adult, and let them shit up their own life.
But call it gambling, regulate it under the same legal requirements as you would any other form of gambling, and keep the kids out.
You are very confused, the pity is only for the S rank characters, getting an A rank does not reset it, and every game resets your pity when you get a S rank, they being the new one from the banner or someone that’s been in the game for a while, but the second time you hit pity will be the banner S rank, just like genshin and star rail.
Are you sure about that? This is a huge amount of information. I put all the facts into Claude and asked it who was correct, you or me. It told me I’m correct based on the facts provided to it. So even a multi million dollar language learning model came to the same conclusion I did.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ZZZ_Official/s/9zjV0zSVkC
Getting 5-star resets your 4-star pity, which is different from GI/HSR system
I see other comments being guilty of poor reading comprehension lol.
OP is correct that in GI and HSR the 4* pity works differently than in ZZZ (and WuWa for that matter)
- in GI and HSR, getting a 5* does not reset 4* pity. It may delay it if 4* hard pity happens to coincide with a 5* pull, but you will then be guaranteed a 4* at pity 11.
- in WuWa and ZZZ, getting a 5* resets 4* pity. You could go 19 consecutive pulls without a 4*/A-rank as long as there’s a 5* in between.
It is objectively correct that
- the former is better for the players than the latter (more 4*s, duh)
- using the same concise wording for both is misleading, even when the detailed explanation shows the difference, and especially when it’s the same company using the same wording to mean two different things.
Unfortunately it is also objectively correct that the ZZZ/WuWa implementation is closer to a strict interpretation of the terms, and thus absolutely a feature and not a bug. This sucks but there is a 0% chance of it getting “fixed” because it works exactly as intended.
Yes, I’m on the camp that lootboxes and gacha should be for adults only since it preys on the same desire, also I know card games are like this too and it was wrong that they got away with it for so long BUT you can at least sell your cards.
Gacha can be moderately acceptable if the math is fully documented and enforced. If you know it will take <= 180 pulls to get Raiden Shogun, and each pull costs $3, then it’s just a $540 DLC with extra steps and the tease thst it might be cheaper if you’re lucky or have banked pulls.
But transparency is key-- the developer should be expected to offer a calculator or lookup table for any RNG item, especially if it’s some combination of multiple drop mechanics or hsrd-to-convert currencies that dissuades back-of-the-envelope estimates.
Even in Vegas, the slot machines are required to disclose their payout rate.
There’s also significant differences in the gacha appeal factor. If there are no leaderboards or PvP, and the game mechanics can be completed with F2P only, that is inherently less pressure to spend then on a game where you regularly get your ass handed to you by a someone with a Black Amex and all seven-star limited banner units.
Agreed on P2P gacha games. Those are just gross as fuck, since as you said, they’re explicitly pay-to-win.
Genshin does, for the most part, provide very clear percentages and how the math works out, so you can actually do that but they’re certainly a rarity. I will say, though, that while they do provide that information it’s also in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a disused lavatory with a ‘beware of the leopard’ sign.
You can find it if you know where it is, but your average user isn’t going to know the magic things you should click on to get from the wish screen to the page on the website where they outline specific odds and pull rates, which eh, not a fan of making that so obscure.
Also: not a fan of the sell you a currency you have to convert to another currency to convert to a 3rd thing that then can be used for gambling thing. There shouldn’t be more than one level of obscuring between your money and the final item you need - Genshin goes from Crystals to Primogems to Wishes, and that’s almost entirely to be sure to confuse people how much that wish actually cost, since you’ve got a lot of math to do to get back to what you orginally paid for the Crystals.
It’s not a rarity, all eastern games show a percentage because their local jurisdiction (often china and japan) require it by LAW, they didn’t do it for the goodness of their hearts.
Did not know that, and everywhere should require that at the very bare minimum. Knowing how you’re going to get screwed is a good place to start.
Even if you do find the cabinet in the lavatory, the probability calculations for a simple use case are ridiculously complicated. It does reek a bit of “minimum compliance required by law.”
On the plus side, Hoyo (at least in Star Rail) doesn’t bombard the player in-game with pop-ups or the like. A zero-spend player that just wants to poke around in the story or the game world isn’t going to be harassed. Instead, it’s earnest marketing, by way of letting the player use characters on trial, featuring them in the story, or high-quality video productions published outside the game. They make as much money as they do because their production values on that stuff are among the best in the business.
As far as running a digital goods casino (where you don’t own the goods), I’ve seen far worse. I still don’t think we’re doing as much as we should to protect those with addictions to gambling or FOMO from these products, however.
Honestly if you approach genshins probabilities for 5* with anything other than “50% i get at max pity, 100% at 2x max pity” you’re doing it wrong so I’d argue in that sense it’s dead simple. 4* being less guaranteed feels like a problem though, you’re not that much more likely to get the 4* you want from a banner than the 5*, and there’s no guarantee you’ll ever get it at all. And ime a LOT of people don’t realize that (though I still don’t think getting a rough idea of that is particularly complicated).
Having outright “if you spend x in game currency, you are x% likely to get the thing you want” info does seem like a reasonable requirement.
And personally the reason i spent more on genshin than any other gacha is that i had a reasonably priced guarantee instead of having to gamble at all, it felt more like buying chars for a set price with bonus loot boxes.
you’re not that much more likely to get the 4* you want from a banner than the 5*, and there’s no guarantee you’ll ever get it at all
This literally happened to me lol, wanted to get some constellations for YaoYao and walked away only with Alhaitam and no constellations. Didn’t spend a dime though, the only money I put on genshin was buying a skin.
Knowing the odds doesn’t stop children from developing a gambling habit.
We were on the way to banning gambling a couple decades ago, it was illegal online and it was hard for new casinos to open up. Sports betting was illegal.
Now we’ve got FanDuel and gacha and loot boxes and crypto casinos and shitcoin shoveling influencers all this awful shit. And if you look around, the biggest shitbag bullies are the ones who are promoting it, because they know they’ll get their bag and their fans will never turn on them.
You know, because they might win next time.
These people are child predators, just not (always) the sexual kind. Fucking ban it all.
Knowing the odds doesn’t stop children from developing a gambling habit.
Agreed, and this is why I’m firmly on the no-kids side of things.
If you can’t go to a casino until you’re 21, why exactly should you be able to gamble online (in any form!) until then either?
Don’t gamble please for the love of fuck, all gambling is mathematically designed to never pay off for the one gambling
I generally agree, but poker is an exception where, if skilled enough, you can actually make money.
The problem is that everybody sitting around that table thinks they’re skilled enough.
Plenty of times I agree. However, no other game in the casino is one so heavily reliant on skill, and if you are skilled in it, it can pay off.
Excuse me but I heard that the real problem with gamblers is that 99% of them quit before winning big.
You are 100% sure to win if you play long enough.
It’s a lot easier to design when the only payout are pixels on a screen.
While I definitely have a lot of issues with how fast people said “Gacha and loot boxes are okay if it is Genshin Impact”, I have the same general reservations I did back when it was about loot boxes in Overwatch or nu-Battlefront 2.
Yes, it is real shitty and a great way to pad out a game into a grind. And the goal is obviously to encourage RMTs to bypass it.
But also? It is like people for got ARPGs and MMOs and the like. The common refrain among older “gamer” Millennials is something like “I almost flunked out of school because of WoW/Everquest” and the like. And a lot of us have stories about staying up all night doing Bhaal runs to get a specific drop in Diablo 2 and so forth.
And, at the end of the day, it is the same thing. It is a way to artificially increase engagement with the option to RMT your way out of it. Studios have found ways to pull all those RMTs into the game itself (so that they get a cut on every legendary sword sold) but it is still the same skinner boxes.
Not to mention games like Balatro or Vampire Survivors that take massive inspiration from casino and slot machine design and mechanics. Yes, they don’t have additional purchases (DLC aside) but there is something to be said when EVERYONE owns a ten dollar game because everyone who touches it can’t stop gushing about the flashing lights and bells.
And, much like with loot boxes, I am really hesitant for any “We passed some random ass legislature. Mission Accomplished™”. When the underlying skinner box concept is still the basis of so many games.
Thanks for calling them out for being Skinner Boxes (also known as an Operant Conditioning Chamber). When my friends were having addiction issues with WoW 20 years ago, I called it out as being addictive because it was a glorified skinner box. Nothing has changed, it’s just become more exploitative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber
For anyone unfamiliar, it’s a science experiment. There’s two rats in two boxes. One rat has a lever that, when pressed, drops food to the rat. The rat only presses the lever when it is hungry. In the other box, the rat has a lever that randomly outputs food, but never consistently. A lot of the time, it produces nothing. The rat in that box spends all day long pressing the lever. Since it has no idea when the food will come, it panics and never stops trying to get more food, unsure if it will starve if it does not.
This is Diablo/World of Warcraft and the “Epic Loot” problem. People are clicking on the games endlessly looking for that top tier loot drop. It’s the same thing, because the results are inconsistent, people get addicted to the grind of trying to find the “best” item.
Also, thanks for pointing out that it doesn’t matter what game it is it’s still not okay. It wasn’t okay when it was WoW, it’s not okay when it’s Genshin Impact.
While I understand and agree with your premise to a point, aren’t you advocating for the removal of all randomness in videogames? As long as random factors are tied to outcomes, games will always be playing off that desire that the Skinner Box highlights. I’d argue that the entire modern rogue-lite genre is predicated on the fact that sometimes you will get “better” powerups, upgrades, etc., which leads to better outcomes. Auto-chess games are similiar, where hitting good random rolls leads to high powered teams and easy wins.
Mastery of both these genres requires both a wide birth of knowledge, and flexibility as you make due with what you are offerred, rather than simply always having the best things at all times. These are skills that are fun to have tested and build master in, and I don’t really think we should eliminate that from games. I agree that the worst offenders are simply trying to feed off human addiction rather than build are emergant gameplay situations, but any rule that targets the addict chasers is likely to catch other games with randomization in the crossfire.
I understand I didn’t make it clear in this comment and I apologize for that, elsewhere in the thread I made clear that I don’t want games like WoW/Diablo/Borderlands/Balatro to get banned, but I do think it’s important to recognize how their systems work and can impact people with addiction/gambling issues. I think we haven’t ever actually had a conversation about that aspect of these games, and I think it may be an important one to have, even if it only deeply affects a small sliver of society. Out of 9 billion people, a sliver is still often millions.
Also, and I do apologize, (especially if it was just a typo) but it is actually “wide berth” not “wide birth.” Otherwise, I agree with your point. However, I really did have friends who struggled with WoW in functionally the same way I have had other friends struggle with drugs and alcohol. They were in the minority, but they existed. I think it’s important to find ways to help those people deal with those issues without impacting the large number of people whom it does not. As I said elsewhere, I personally don’t have good ideas how to achieve that, I just know the conversation should happen. I would hope more clever and thoughtful people than I could have good ideas.
but there is something to be said when EVERYONE owns a ten dollar gam
Because it’s the game of the year.
…and because literally every mechanic in the game is random. The whole game is a skinner box. I say this as a fan of Balatro.
To quote myself from elsewhere in the thread: The blinds are random, the jokers are random, the store is random, the planets are random, the tarot cards are random, it’s all random.
That’s literally what gives Balatro an addictively replayable quality.
How are the blinds random? They scale. Every game is “random” if you want to boil it down.
While there certainly are problems with other games, at least every game you mentioned is fully transparent about the price tag. Balatro doesn’t exploit whales by concealing how much it’ll cost to get anything.
And thank you for demonstrating how we got here and why the root issue will never be addressed.
“Whoa now. The game I like does none of that” is the same reason gacha is fine if it is genshin
They’re different issues. The fact that people can and do financially ruin themselves over gacha is a lot more serious, and trying to conflate that with something like Balatro ultimately muddies the message.
I think gacha is a predatory business model that should be illegal, and yes that includes Genshin. But no it does not include Balatro, because Balatro isn’t gacha.
Its the same idea. It is taking concepts that are known to prey on those with addictive tendencies and turning that into a game.
That is why I referenced games like Diablo and WoW. They were more about making people spend time but… time is money.
And THAT is the problem. Knowingly taking advantage of the kind of stuff that rubs dopamine emitters real nice. Because a lot of us can dip in and out of a gacha and not get ruined. And others will fail out of college because they NEED that drop
It’s not. These are not the same thing. No one has bankrupted themselves playing Balatro.
Money is not everything. That is why I keep pointing out the time argument (and you keep ignoring it…). Gaming cafes tend to take advantage along those lines but also just look up horror stories like that couple that was so engrossed with WoW (?) they let their baby die.
At the end of the day: Warning labels and acknowledgement of what we are exposing ourselves to goes a long way. Rather than just saying “I like X so X can’t be bad” until it gets to the point that people insist it needs to be illegal because they cannot help themselves.
I like X so X can’t be bad
I didn’t say that. What I said was “these are not the same thing, and drawing a false equivalence between them muddies the message.”
True, and I say this as a fan of Balatro…
…but the core of Balatro is literally in its random presentation. The blinds are random, the jokers are random, the store is random, the planets are random, the tarot cards are random, it’s all random. World of Warcraft didn’t need you to pay money to get epic loot either, but I still had friends ruin their lives over chasing epic loot in WoW. I haven’t had any friends ruin their lives over Balatro yet, but I also don’t think it’s impossible for that to happen. Obviously Balatro isn’t “gambling” in the sense of taking a risk with actual real money, but otherwise it still fits the definition of a skinner box.
Because at their core, when a massive amount of the gameplay revolves around random chance, it’s very easy to get addicted to it.
The core of lots of games revolve around random chance, and plenty of those exhibit no addictive behavior whatsoever. I’d certainly like to hear a research psychologist’s take on it though.
Well what do you want the solution to be? I think it’s easy to say that games should be transparent about what you’re paying for, my stance is that gacha should be outright illegal because of that. But I don’t think it makes sense to go after any and all kinds of randomness in games.
I’m not the one who made the original post so I’m not asking for a solution for this.
I’m pointing out how hard it is to lay down a line in the sand and say “this one is bad and this one is good” because sadly, but very arguably, the core game mechanics are addictive themselves.
I remember the couple in
ChinaSouth Korea whose baby died because they were playing too much WoW.It’s been 20 years I got the country wrong: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2005/06/547/
Some people just cannot control themselves when it comes to a skinner box.
I don’t know what the solution is because I’d rather not see Diablo/WoW/Borderlands/Balatro get banned.
I just think it is important to discuss the reality of their skinner box operational procedures.
Gacha is the line in the sand I’m willing to draw. Don’t put randomness in the price tag.
I mean, in the US before the reversal of the Chevron doctorine, the easy solution would be to pass legislation banning “dark patterns” then assign a regulatory agency to design guidance and enforce the law
I think the fact that people treat them different is the argument that, when the company themselves are taking a cut of that RMT, they have a financial incentive to design systems that would make you want to use it, even more so than when it’s something done against the TOS.
It’s why Diablo 3 had to remove it, the grind got much better after it was gone.
We had to convince my brother in law (13yo) to not spend his birthday money of £85 on Genshin impact skins. Kids are fucked by advertising man
Report that shit to the EU or your government. At least in Europe they care…
China has announced a ban on Gacha game mechanics (and lootboxes, predatory discounts, and gambling) which should hopefully ripple out to Europe and the US soon.
A lot of these mechanics were adapted from the Chinese gaming market and I think the same will likely happen in the reverse.
I’m no stranger to people paying for skins and all, but when i first heard that kids want vbucks as a Christmas gift my stomach kinda turned.
It’s the same formula in damned near every game now. Pay2Win has made even the most chill JRPG a wall of ads and notifications to spend more money.
Same, World of Tanks is the first game that comes to my mind when people mention pay2win mechanics. I am quite happy that I don’t play that game anymore.
I’m quite sad that most games for smartphones are either gatcha-hell, or add-ridden messes.
What good options are there? I tried OpenTTD for Android, but the UI is really not optimized for such a small screen.
Here are games I like that are just mobile ports without ads or micro transactions:
Slay the spire
Monster train
Mindustry
Mini metro
Honorable mention to Vampire Survivors which is mostly a simple port, but it does incentivize you to watch ads for extra lives.
there’s still good games on the app store, you just gotta pay. Stardew is good on phone
I remember being pissed when I got shitty cards from a YuGiOh booster pack when I was a kid, never bought new packs again. Only got stuff if I knew its value first. The fact that kids these days are actually falling prey to these systems shows how much more advanced and predatory they are.
The interesting thing is that although I’ve almost never spent money on a gacha system and haven’t played much gacha systems recently, my brain subconsciously craved for more but in a safer way.
That’s why I created the JavaScript weighted playlist for myself: A random selection of songs from my music library where some songs play (much) more than others. Getting a super rare song is akin to getting a top tier drop. Additionally, the playback rate is randomized to a normal distribution, giving the tiny chance that a rare song can play with a wild playback rate. And if that wasn’t enough, some Geometry Dash related songs can randomly skip to the next song, simulating watching someone try to beat some demon level.
I’ve created a skinner box for my brain that sometimes causes me to waste hours just clicking on the “next song” button to see what shows up next. My wallet was not harmed in the process (although it might soon be because I want it to work on a portable device, but that money would go to some niche open source hardware thing rather than a greedy gacha publisher).
This is extremely interesting and in general kind of touches on a point that I heard that’s kind of funny… People are just bored, and all of Good and bad things that we do in this world are a result of that boredom. Gambling, our hobbies, picking up another job. If it cures your boredom there’s nothing wrong with it
Is roblox a gacha game? My little 7 year old nephew wants to play but I’m not sure if it’s appropriate (as the gaming liason in the family)
I wouldn’t call Roblox itself a gacha game. That category is the ones where you are trying to collect all the heroes in the game and level them up with rare loot. AFAIK they generally, if not always, involve loot crates that you have to purchase.
Roblox has its own problems. As spelled out by People Make Games in these two videos.
https://youtu.be/_gXlauRB1EQ?si=ngjtGwhA5JH5FcEL
https://youtu.be/vTMF6xEiAaY?si=u1z_LYfOYrOMlUDd
Roblox claims to teach kids how to make their own games. At this point from what I’ve heard, I would suggest Unity Engine before Roblox, and I wouldn’t recommend Unity after their pricing debacle.
Watch the videos, and have a serious discussion with his parents about it before you get him that game platform.
Don’t know if there are gacha mechanics but Roblox has been widely criticized for basically using child labor. The majority of content is user created. Don’t know how exactly it’s monetized but i can’t imagine it’s good.
Roblox is not a game, it is a game platform where users make games. Roblox games, especially ones that are mildly popular at 500-5k active players usually have reasonable monetization and no gacha. Some have lootboxes.
I swear the post sounds like an LLM so much, but if it isn’t, congrats to OP on the writing skills
indeed. completely different writing style than the rest of OPs posts/comments as well
