Was just trying to explain to someone why everything is going to shit, specifically companies, and realized, I don’t fully get it either.

I’ve got the following explanation. The sentences marked with “???” are were I’m lost. Anyone mind telling me, if they’re correct and if so, why?

The past few years, central banks were giving out interest rates of 0% or even negative percentages. Regular banks would not quite pass this on, but you could still loan money and give it back later with no real interest payments.

This lead to lots of people investing in companies. As long as those companies paid out more money than those low interest rates, it was worthwhile. But at the same time, this meant companies didn’t have to be profitable, because they could pay out investors from money that other investors gave them???

This has stopped being the case, as central banks are hiking interest rates again, to combat inflation???

  • Scrubbles
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    272 years ago

    I think as we get older we just notice more and more. Things are bad but relatively things are also good. Take the bad and the good. Others here are explaining the economy stuff, that explains housing and our tech woes, blah blah blah

    Stay informed, fight the good fights, but also take the small moments to stop and think about the positives in your life too. Your family, friends, what you find solace in. There are a lot of negative things, and social media really likes to focus on the negatives, but remember your personal positives too.

  • @[email protected]
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    52 years ago

    pay out investors from money that other investors gave them

    But nobody would base a serous business on such a premise, would they? This sound like a ponzi scheme!

  • IninewCrow
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    482 years ago

    It’s cyclical and it’s been happening for thousands of years. It’s part of our human nature.

    We all work together and build systems, societies and civilizations and do great things. We become wealthy and then slowly concentrate that wealth to smaller and smaller groups of people. Eventually the majority of the wealth is controlled by a very small group of people and everyone else has nothing. The system at this point can not sustain itself and collapses. Then the whole human system restarts again from the bottom.

    It’s happened many many times throughout human history.

    We are just at the height of one of those cycles.

    • @[email protected]
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      12 years ago

      Theres something about the human mind as we take more shits throughout the years everything starts to hear, look, smell, taste and feel more and more like shit as the time passes.

      Which perfectly explains why my greatnana who lived to be 100 thought it was absolutely hilarious that she shat herself when she tried to blow out her candles on her birthday cake.

    • @[email protected]
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      82 years ago

      Maybe this can change in the software space with the advent of foss.

      It kinda is I suppose, even if very, very slowly.

    • lippiece
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      52 years ago

      What exactly do you mean by system collapsing and restarting? How does it look?

    • @[email protected]
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      42 years ago

      I think the overall picture is accurate, wealth typically concentrates in good times, and spreads out in bad ones. However, we in the West are still nowhere near the all-time highs of inequality, and while it’s cyclic it’s not in a predictable way like that. I don’t think it’s even clear that highly unequal societies must become unstable.

      • IninewCrow
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        52 years ago

        The trouble is that we can’t apply the same speed of development or collapse to our civilization as to those in the past.

        We have nuclear weapons, mass communications, global internet and interconnected multinational financial systems that all work at real time speed all across the world at the mass level and individual level.

        We are capable of developing in so many ways at such great speed compared to the past … but we are also capable to destroying ourselves instantly through nuclear warfare, or within a century through our ignorance of climate change.

        • @[email protected]
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          22 years ago

          Yeah, technology is really different. Ideology is also new; agricultural civilisation had versions of feudalism for thousands of years until the American and French revolutions, and it seems like they’ve actually made a huge difference in how things go. It’s pretty much the sole reason I think we could break the cycle.

  • @[email protected]
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    22 years ago

    I’m not sure the explanation is true. It basically says that “lots of people” invested in Ponzi schemes. That’s usually not the case. Stock returns or dividends are based on the operating profits, not the balance from new investors. It would require that companies deliberately fake their financial statements, and while that probably happens, it’s definitely not the explanation for why “everything” went to shit overall.

    It’s true that the low interest has caused people who have money to place them in investments and that this may have overinflated the value of some companies, or that the money is placed in more risky companies.

    The second part is also true. Central banks are increasing the interest rates in an attempt to bring inflation down.

    Overall, the idea is right that inflation, interest and investments are tied together, but it doesn’t really explain why everything is going to shit.

  • @[email protected]
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    132 years ago

    Companies are competing with each other to maximize profit. If there aren’t new markets for them to grow into, companies can only grow by reducing cost and bringing in more revenue. As such they make shittier products while also pushing prices as high as they can go. This is an unfortunate consequence of how capitalism works.

    • @[email protected]
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      12 years ago

      But there are new markets to grow into, as more and more people ascend into higher and higher levels of economic opulence.

      • @[email protected]
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        12 years ago

        Yes and no. Increased consumption can stimulate an economy but there are are some limitations. This is usually only true if the economy is simultaneously building a middle class. There are also hard limits on improvements to technology and resource extraction. As such capitalists can’t always find ways to entice people to consume more. That leaves them with raising prices and suppressing wages if they want to increase profits.

  • @[email protected]
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    2 years ago

    Zero interest rates meant that speculative investing (for the purpose of selling later for more money, not for any dividends a company might pay from any profits) with lent money (aka leveraged investment) was pretty much a risk free proposition since loans with zeto interest rates cost no money to maintain. (You and me don’t have easy access to loans for investing from the money markets but the kind of investor we’re talking here does)

    Interest rates go up and that lent money now has significant costs associated so investing with lent money (and nowadays that is most of investing done at professional levels) now has to produce enough returns to pay the interest on the loans hence all the pressure for companies to generate profits.

    (Note that money from the money markets is typically on much shorter terms - and loans usually are rolled-over into new loans on maturity - than consumer loans, so interest rates on those respond much faster to changing base interest rates than for consumer loans)

    (Also the companies themselves also have loans that they now need to pay interest on, which adds a more direct pressure to start having a positive cashflow)

    As for central banks raising base interest rates to combat inflation, the idea is to literally make people have less money available (I kid you not: people are supposed to be made poorer) so that they don’t buy as much, and that reduction in Demand will cause prices to fall.

    Edit: I was thinking about this and realised I had moved the ??? around but not clarified it all. Specifically, how do we go from “speculative investors having less cost-free money” to “companies which have eternally been in ‘investment phase’ (i.e. losing money whilst promising they’ll one day be the greatest thing since sliced bread) being forced into trying to actually have profits”. Well, for the stock price not to fall too much (which might lead to a rush-to-the-exits, a feeback-cycle were the more money that exits the less the worth of the stock, so the more money exits) and as speculative investors are fewer and/or have less money to invest, they have to appeal to more traditional investors, the kind that judges a company’s worth by their (stock-)Price-to-Earnings ratios (which, by the way, is a ratio that the smaller it is the more appealing a stock is to buy), so to have good P/E ratios without the Price side going down, the Earnings (basically Profit) side has to go up, hence the need to generate some profit (notice that the P/E of a company without profits is INFINITY), which is what pushed them to try and come up with profit NOW to hold their valuations and sometimes even at the cost of future profitability.

    This also links with another element I forgot to mention early: the “climb up the yield scale”. In simple terms (as much as possible) - most of the money out there not in the hands of States is owned by two kinds of entities - Pension Funds and the Rich (which, given the extremelly uneven distribution of money actually own more money than everybody else combined) - and they’re not just putting it on a bank and getting Savings Account interest on it, they’re looking for ways to make money from money. Now, back in 2010 when Central Banks “rescued” the Economy through their Zero Interest Rates Policy, that money which was mainly parked in the safest of investments (Treasuries, Investment Grade Corporate Bonds) started getting puny amounts of interest, eventually even losing value (remember how the Treasuries of many countries started having a negative yield - i.e. you paid those countries money to hold your money?!) so they started going up into riskier and riskier asset classes seeking a higher yield (i.e. higher returns on their investments), up and up into Junk Bonds, Stocks, Realestate, Tech Stocks, Startups and even really exotic asset classes like digital “coins” (I very much doubt there would ever have been a Bitcoin mania without all that money seeking yield due to ZIRP), all of which is the “climb up the yield scale”.

    Now the “climb up the yield scale” sounds like the opposite of what would make companies which are mainly speculative investments try to make profits because it is exactly that: the rise of baseline interest rates reverses that trend - it makes safe financial assets more appealing (holding Treasuries now actually pays interest, not cost interest, and just up the risk scale investment grade corporate bonds also pay more) which is pulling all that money down (remember, rich people and pension funds: they’re usually quite averse to losing money, i.e. more risk averse that, say, Investment Banks, especially old-wealth) and out from the higher-risk and more speculative investment classes, noteably Startups (and further down Tech Stocks and even Realestate). This again puts pressure on companies which were so far profitless to produce profits: it makes them look safer hence retain some of the investment which had before climbed the yield scale when the safest of investments had ridiculously low (even negative) returns.

    There are actually yet more ways through which higher interest rates feed into speculative companies trying to put on a pretty face by actually having profits, but this post is more than long enough already ;)

  • @[email protected]
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    672 years ago

    Cory Doctorow (pluralistic.net) has a number of stories now on the concept of “enshittification”. Basically businesses start off being good to customers but eventually get to a point where, if they’re dominant the drive for endless profit results in them turning to squeezing suppliers, customers, everyone.

    Tech enables new forms of exploitation.

    • @[email protected]
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      12 years ago

      There’s got to be a more scholarly name for that trend which has existed long before the invention of the word “enshitification”. What is it?

    • Square Singer
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      182 years ago

      And the bad economics right now enforce simultaneous enshittification in a huge amount of products. I guess that might also be a big point to why it’s so apparent right now.

  • @[email protected]
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    302 years ago

    So just to answer the parts that didn’t make sense to you…

    Basically, interest rates were so low that investors would throw huge sums of money at companies that might one day pay off huge (called moonshots. Basically, everyone wanted a piece of the next google.)

    This was fine because with low interest rates, there weren’t secure guaranteed other investments those investors could be making.

    But now, investors can, fairly safely, put their money into t bills (basically, lending it to government which is traditionally exceptionally safe) and get a decent return.

    So investors are ready to pull their money out unless they see some sort of return. Hence, a site like reddit is now trying desperately to monetize so as to turn a profit or to go public, sell shares and reward the initial investors.

    The central banks bit… Typically, the way to fight inflation is to slow the economy down by raising interest rates. When interest rates are high, it costs more to borrow so it’s harder to get capital to start a business, grow business etc which slows the economy and, in theory, slows inflation.

    Happy to clarify!

    • @[email protected]OP
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      52 years ago

      Thanks! I guess, I posed this question badly as most of the other folks came here to philosophize or rant.

      If you’re doing those moonshots and a company isn’t profitable, does that mean you don’t get paid out in the meantime? You just keep your money in there, because the company’s valuation rises, which makes your x% company ownership worth more, right?

      Right, and with inflation, we just need to slow it, i.e. stretch it over a longer period of time, because we have automatic processes in place to adjust for a certain rate of inflation over a fixed period of time (like for example work contracts that include an automatic pay raise every year).

      • amio
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        102 years ago

        I guess, I posed this question badly as most of the other folks came here to philosophize or rant.

        Not really, that’s just how this place is.

        • @[email protected]OP
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          22 years ago

          Well, part of posing it badly was to post it to AskLemmy, because yeah, this is more just an opinion community. I probably should’ve gone to some finance-related community, but couldn’t think of one, off the top of my head…

      • @[email protected]
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        42 years ago

        does that mean you don’t get paid out in the meantime?

        Usually, yup. Investment deal structure varies but generally that’s the case. You can sometimes borrow money to buy out an original investor, which is what I think what part of your earlier explanation bit meant.

        Right, and with inflation, we just need to slow it, i.e. stretch it over a longer period of time

        Basically, yeah. We kind of just accept there will be some degree of inflation… I don’t recall any arguments as to why zero inflation would be bad but I think inflation’s existenxe is just a fact of economic life. So we want to spread it out in an orderly fashion so those processes you correctly listed can quietly do their thing.

  • @[email protected]
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    82 years ago

    Greed, deregulation, and at least in my country, the powers that be don’t give a shit about the plebes, but have incentives to destroy the world to feed their already overflowing bank accounts.

  • @[email protected]
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    2 years ago

    Very generally, you use the central bank rate to control the money supply. You increase it to remove money from the economy.

    Even money is affected by supply and demand. Too much money in the economy is one of several things that can cause inflation – for example because a surplus of money means people value money less and goods/services more. As a result, the value of goods/services as measured in money goes up.

    Sadly, these are macro-level problems. Personally having a surplus of money sounds great, but the actual amount of extra money I made during Covid was not that much – but give that much money to 100 million people and you’re going to have inflation (I live in Vietnam where the economy was not seriously impacted).

  • Call me Lenny/Leni
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    32 years ago

    Different entities rely on each other too much, so when a number of them have gone down, it began to drag the rest down, like a human tower that could no longer hold itself up. It doesn’t help people think nothing needs to change about their economy, like maybe add a few rules on how it works, no reform needed. But no, apparently it’s perfect.

  • @[email protected]
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    222 years ago

    Simple, the world already ended and we are feeling the slow burn.

    Too many humans on the planet to be sustainable. People will start dying en masse in my lifetime, that’s just mother nature correcting things as she always has.

    We were on borrowed time since humans discovered agriculture and the fun is over now.

    • @[email protected]
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      32 years ago

      The earth has enough resources to feed 12 billion or so of us humans, and only Anglo world is burning. Rest of the world shall prosper and make this earth a better place to live, while the imaginary white man burden crushes whites under their individualistic capitalist superimperialism machinery.

        • @[email protected]
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          22 years ago

          I am from India… but I will not specify the state. I do know how metro cities’ air feels like.

            • @[email protected]
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              22 years ago

              Because capitalism is not as dominant and is much weaker outside of Anglosphere. There is some sense of collectivism. OP’s claim of everything going to shit is a doomer take based on their surrounding environment which is, with good probability, an Anglo country.

    • @[email protected]
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      312 years ago

      Alright, Thats all bullshit.

      The planet can easily support our population. Hell, the planet could support double our population.

      The only reason why everything has gone to shit is the Rich and their greed. They’ve bought off governments to continue destroying the planet in their draconic lust for larger piles of gold to sit on, and adamantly refuse to change course for fear of it taking even a single, meaningless coin from their horde to do it.

      We have more than enough food to feed the whole planet, but capitalism has decided its more “cost effective” to burn half of it to maintain shareholder prices.

      There would be more than enough water available for everyone, but cleaning its to costly so lets just find another aquifer to drain and pollute.

      The climate would have been fine, if corporations and their dumping of terratons of pollution into the air wasnt handwaved away as “Well, its consumers fault, if they just skipped meals and stopped using paper, none of this would have happened”.

      More time and money and research has been spent on how to let the rich and corporations escape blame, than has been spent on trying to prevent these problems that scientists have been warning about for over 100 years.

      • @[email protected]
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        2 years ago

        I somewhat agree.

        The thing is that even if we did everything perfectly, the human race would still reproduce until it is unsustainable. It is in our nature.

        We are supposed to be animals, but at some point (discovery of agriculture) we detached from the food chain and defied mother nature. It is not possible to be sustainable from this point onwards.

        Personally I believe that human conscienceness was a mistake in evolution. If I could press a button that would kill billions of people including myself I would do so without hesitation.

        Recommend reading the thoughts of Pentti Linkola.

        • @[email protected]
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          32 years ago

          The thing is that even if we did everything perfectly, the human race would still reproduce until it is unsustainable. It is in our nature.

          Sure, if you ignore the fact that global birthrates are falling, and sharply in some places.

          • @[email protected]
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            2 years ago

            Yeah that’s because we hit max population. Population will start decreasing pretty soon I think.

            I said that if we lived “sustainably” we would reproduce until we couldn’t anymore

  • @[email protected]
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    552 years ago

    Is capitalism dying or will it just get more and more ruthless until like 10 people have 99.999% of the wealth? Is there a difference? Either way it seems like humanity will have to make a choice soon whether we want to keep propping up a system that has fundamentally failed them.

    • Laissez-faire economics and libertarian ideals (a-la Atles Shrugged) destroy society. I don’t know that anyone has nailed down a good balance of personal liberty, social justice, and (individual) wealth; I suspect one of the nordic models is closest, but fuck if I know.

      What I’m pretty sure of is that countries with laissez-faire models are like virulent diseases. They’re aggressive and successful, until they kill the host and collape. To compete, other countries have to adopt similar models. I think the host in this metaphor is the planet, but we’re seeing some indication that the social immune system in the US is responding, with a resurgence on union activity. And it’s possible that one of nature’s balancing tools (diseases such as COVID, SARS, etc) will help with the environmental impact; I don’t see that as a global community we’re doing so well at managing our environmental resources responsibly, so if nature doesn’t cause a great purge, we may simply extinct ourselves and moot the issue.

      Edit: Whilst I’m preaching… I believe capitalism is the best economic system we’ve found. I believe some tools in capitalism have unintended, and deleterious consequences. In particular, the stock market, and usury. Both are tools that generate money directly from money (“investing” and “interest”), and both IMHO are responsible for most of the excesses of capitalism.

      • @[email protected]
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        82 years ago

        Nordic models are a mix of social democracy and corporatism. Definitely not free and definitely not the answer.

    • @[email protected]
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      72 years ago

      Negative, feds controlling the money supply and interest rates is not capitalism. That is antithetical to a free market

      • PorkRollWobbly
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        102 years ago

        The means of production are privately owned and used to generate a profit. This is the late stage of that. Don’t try and spout some “actually” bullshit. We did trickle down economics. We did neoliberalism. We’re at the final stages and it’s all pointing to fascism. Dumb fuck.