Then maybe Kamala should stop glazing Israel’s d. so much and actually do something to win back michigan muslims. They’ll either vote third party or won’t vote at all. The trumpists will vote Trump anyway. This post is purely delusional if you think you’ll win some voting groups back just by dragging third party candidates through the mud. Especially voting groups so deeply involved in some issues that your beloved candidate clearly doesn’t care about at all.
Move right to appeal to Republicans
They don’t vote for you, lose anyway
Noooooo this is all Jill’s fault.
https://www.nj.com/politics/2024/10/harris-vs-trump-spoiler-says-the-quiet-part-out-loud.html
We are not in a position to win the White House, but we do have a real opportunity to win something historic, we could deny Kamala Harris the state of Michigan. And the polls show that most likely Harris cannot win the election without Michigan.”
Former Seattle City Council member and prominent Indian-American political activist Kshama Sawant made that clear at a recent event.
The irony, right?
Your username says Seattle but your political views are more rural Washington.
I live there- and trust me when I say, I get second-hand embarrassment on behalf of this city from reading their rhetoric . Seattle is a lovely and very politically literate city and in no way is represented by their… ideology.
I’m actually voting for Jill who might as well be a Lenin for how far right Harris is.
The Green Party thanks Lemmy for all the publicity it has brought to the Jill Stein campaign
Evidence that third party votes would of voted otherwise? If people don’t like any candidates, they might not vote at all
Or, they might vote Republican. In 2016, Clinton was na clear establishment candidate and Trump was a (fake) populist. Voters who went Green or Libertarian as a vote against the establishment were unlikely to swing to Hillary.
I’m not sure that dynamic still holds now. The MAGA faithful think Trump is a populist, but I don’t think anyone else does.
Picture a situation where various political parties vie to unseat the Republicans. With more representative electoral systems, voters could select their preferred candidates, while still counting their vote against the Republican party even if their choice doesn’t win, all without the spoiler effect. Since voting methods are set at the state level, we don’t need to wait for federal reforms; some states have already enacted electoral changes. For instance, Alaska recently chose a more moderate conservative over Sarah Palin due to Ranked Choice voting.
Who would oppose having multiple opportunities to diminish Republican power? The Democratic Party would. In blue states, they could replace First Past The Post voting with a system that eliminates the spoiler effect. Yet, year after year, election after election, Democrats remain inactive on passing state level electoral reform in the states they control.
Republicans are moving to protect FPTP voting in red states. Why do the democrats want to use the voting system republicans prefer?
Its not that democrats dont know about the flaws in the voting system either. Just mention voting for a third party to any Democrat, and they’ll readily acknowledge the weaknesses of the voting system. Comments about the Green Party here will further illustrate their understanding of this issue.
If democrats understanding the problem, yet refuse to fix it, can only mean one thing. The Democrats prefer the country balancing over a fire pit of fascism rather than truly competing for our votes. They would rather this country be lost to authoritarianism then to play on a even playing field.
Party over country at all costs.
I agree with everything you’ve said except that the folks here upset at seeing third party votes help Trump win are NOT the same people refusing to fix the FPTP problem.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed this about Stein voters, but they’re very unlikely to switch their vote from Stein to Harris. If anything, there would suddenly be an unexplainable surge in write-in votes for Putin.
You fundamentally misunderstand the people you speak authoritatively about. Please remember that voters and supportive posters on the internet are not the same thing. I agree that Green Party voters (actual human citizens, not bots and trolls online) are woefully misguided but they are not trumpets by any stretch. Have you talked to any of them in person?
Ok champ. 👍
Idiots exist or the grifters wouldn’t target them.
I love how entitled to peoples votes the democrats are.
Thank you for revealing what you are so I can block you
you dont feel they are?
No, they are showing how Trump, a person who never should be president, became the president. It shows that 3rd party voters can impact the outcome but choose not to. It doesn’t have to be that way, you can make an impact.
They are not arguing in good faith
However, calling a person a (person who has an agenda) from (country that they are from) is against the rules
So just block them
Did I just get profiled for questioning the Democrats?
Block me as well blue conservative.
I don’t take orders from pompous shitbags, good sir.
“Im going to be barely better than the alternative and people will literally worship me for it. Also even though i support killing children, trump would kill more probably. Vote blue!”
Disclaimer because lemmy users are becoming more like redditors everyday:
yes trump sucks. Yes vote kamala if youre in a swing state. No, dont attack every person who points out the massive flaws in your democratic system or the “democrat” party. Because they fucking suck also. Just slightly less.
“And we won’t even support you federally and protect your rights … Vote blue!!”
(Completely agree with your disclaimer)
Voting third party in a first past the post voting system ensures you get the candidate you want the least.
Third party is not a solution to a two party system but it does disproportionately affect democratic votes who want change and don’t blindly vote. That’s why it’s often with Republican interests that these 3rd parties are funded in the first place.
Without third parties Republicans would win more
The opposite is true. It’s not republicans splitting off to vote green lol When Trump won and when bush won, third parties took away significant votes (1-3%) away from democratic candidates.
In 2016:
In Michigan Gary Johnson got 172,136 votes, in Pennsylvania he got 146,715, and in Wisconsin he got 106,674. If all Greens voted Clinton and all Libertarians voted Trump then New Mexico would’ve only been won by Clinton with around 1,000 votes, Colorado would’ve also been nearly Trump. Nevada, New Hampshire, and Minnesota would’ve been won by Trump. Maine might’ve gone majority Trump.
In 2020 if Libertarians went Republican and Greens went Democrat, Trump would’ve won Georgia, Arizona, Wisconsin, and nearly Pennsylvania.
That would’ve tied the election, leading to a Trump presidency.
You’re right about 2000 though.
“if they did that”. Which they didnt, because third parties disproportionately affect democrats.
What are you basing that on? Again, Libertarians lean Republican, just as Greens lean Democrats, Libertarians cost Trump 2020…
Long term, its a solution to neither candidate supporting your values. It shows that you wont blindly support whoever is barely less bad. If your vote counts at all (which it pretty much doesbt) then you cant tell people not to vote for whoever is closest to their values. You should be telling the candidate to listen to their voters.
Long term plans that will fail if you let the system break before those plans have a chance come to light. You’re trying to fine tune a system that’s in danger of falling apart. We need to make sure the system doesn’t fall apart before we can worry about tweaking it.
Candidates should listen to the voters, but we need to be realistic on how and when we can make moves. We need to look at the situation and see how we can best move the needle in the right direction. If you let evil men come into power as a result of your rigid morals than you are actually helping create what you hate most. You want the needle to move all the way to good, you won’t take just %10 better, and as a result things may get much worse.
The road to hell is paved with the best intentions had never been more true.
Understandable. I’m not arguing about the technicalities of third parties in the first past voting system. You are 100% correct.
I just don’t like the entitlement. I also don’t like the green party cause I only hear about and of them once every 4 years for the elections. I’m simply stating how annoying and frustrating it is to see Democrats court more centrists and trad republicans than to their core base who they take for granted in a “who else you gonna vote for removed” kinda attitude.
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I voted for Harris yesterday, and I’ll be voting for Harris again tomorrow. Just kidding. Turns out the dead person whose identity I stole wasn’t registered to vote. 😞
You make jokes, but tomorrow this comment will be on FOX as proof them libs are cheating…
Maybe the Democratic party should consider what not following through on their campaign promises gets them. I don’t how their failure to realize their promises to their voters is the fault of people voting for third parties
If you don’t like stein, consider voting party for socialism and liberation instead.
They’re running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to israel.
I found out recently that they’re on the ballot or have official write in status in 42 states, so unless you’re in Alaska, Nevada, Montana, South Dakota, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Georgia or Pennsylvania go for it!
E: forgot Nevada. They’re not officially recognized in Nevada.
I’d advise that no one buy into any of this nonsense. De la Cruz has a mathematically impossible chance to win, and at this point will serve only to siphon votes and spoil the election. Knowingly or not, this is what is happening.
Think about it: Ever wonder why you’re really only hearing about them recently? Where were they four years ago? What have they done to prove they will even do as they say? They have no track record to stand on, but for some reason, these people seem to think they can sneak into an election and have a chance to win on unproven, untested policy with no practical or effective way to make any of it happen?
Make no mistake- there is no good intention from anyone asking you to throw away your vote on these people this late in the game- NONE.
Were it a year or two ago, I could maybe see it. But weeks away from what might be the most important election of our lifetime- to even think to request people not do everything they can to stop a racist rapist traitor to America from forcing our own militarily against us, systematically removing the rights of our LGBTQ+ friends and family, and the rights of women to have body autonomy is as shamelessly in bad faith as one could possibly be.
DO NOT LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE.
I might be misremembering the electoral values of the states here, but I think the combined value of the states they’re not official write ins or on ballot is only 64.
That leaves 474 electoral votes that psl could get, so they very much could win.
The history of the party is easy to find. They’ve been around for a little while now.
I’d choose a party with no track record over one with a consistent track record of genocidal violence and extrajudicial killings, but luckily psl has a track record of grassroots activism that’s pretty consistent, so I don’t have to take a gamble.
It’s a bit absurd to call opposition to genocide and apartheid unproven, untested policy.
I’m swiftly climbing the ladder of age and my whole life people have been saying “well, you should have been advocating for this or that last year, it’s too late now, this is the most important election of our lifetime!”
The best time to vote (and do groundwork for) psl was last year, the second best time is now!
I agree with the last part though, don’t listen to people peddling tired cliches and misinformation trying to manipulate you into voting one way or the other!
News flash genius…. Most everyone here is opposed to genocide. As has been said before, you’re not part of some fringe grassroots group that figured out that genocide was bad ahead of everyone else.
Stop with that shit. I don’t believe you’re here in any good faith to help anyone in any way.
Most everyone here is opposed to genocide.
Most everyone here is also voting for the Democrats, instead of agreeing to vote for a third party who is opposed to genocide
Again… everyone is against genocide. Your bad faith accusations aren’t working on anyone anymore. It’s just… cringy as fuck now.
And so you know- the third party clowns currently running have no viable end game to shut shit down over there. Go ahead and look it up. They say they do- but have no clear answer on how they’d do it that is even remotely viable. But it all looks good to the smug edgelords that think they’re somehow unique because they are against dOiNg gEnoCiDes!
What part of cutting military funding by 90% (Claudia de la Cruz’s platform) would fail to stop funding Israel?
They will have a barely above zero chance of successfully doing this. My god you people will believe anything won’t you?
I wonder why they didn’t just say they’re going to end world hunger…. Or cure cancer.
De la Cruz is a nobody that has no idea what there doing and no chance to ever see a position of authority to create let alone enact any policy that would produce meaningful change.
She’s a spoiler. And at this point- I’m beginning to think it’s purposeful.
You really think she’d have the support of Congress to do such a thing? In a system like America’s? That’s ridiculous. You should know full well such a thing would never happen even if Cruz were to magically win the presidency.
Talk is cheap, and it’s easy for third parties to say they’ll make such sweeping changes when they don’t have to actually back it up. They can tell you what you want to hear, but at the end of the day it’s all talk because such policies will never get past Congress.
If most everyone is opposed to genocide then I agree with them and want to help them find parties and candidates that oppose it too, like psl!
What party in opposition to genocide do you support?
I’m not going to stop politely and courteously advocating for the party and candidate I think is appropriate in threads where it’s on topic in a political comm.
It might not be a good idea to accuse people of bad faith when you open up with a sarcastic insult. World is pretty strict about that stuff, it’s like their number one rule.
I accused you of bad faith because that’s what I think you are. And I think the PSL is hot garbage and that’s why no one is taking them seriously.
Is there an argument I could make from my position that wouldn’t read as bad faith to you?
You’re here trying to garner support for the hopeless psl within weeks of an election, so….
No.
America is a two party system.
Someone should tell it there’s all these other parties then.
With the way our system is set up, a third party will never win. Especially when 50% of America is still backing Trump. We need a new voting system before anything can change
Are they running anyone in elections they might actually win? I might vote for a party like that for mayor or something. But I wouldn’t even vote for them for state house representative unless they were well known enough in my state that they might actually win.
‘Third’ parties in this country can show themselves as serious if they try to establish themselves from the bottom up. If all they do is run for president and occasionally Senate or House, then they show themselves as unserious parties which are probably nothing more than attempts to siphon votes that might have gone to a real candidate.
I don’t know odds, I’m not much of a gambler. You gotta start somewhere though and winning isn’t all that matters: at the presidential level losing parties’ turnout determines their ballot access, event presence, access to funds and media and obviously how much you hear about them.
At the state and local levels there are Byzantine other benefits to having some percentage of the vote that vary wildly from place to place.
So its worth it to vote for a small candidate even if they lose because it can have big effects down the road.
Psl runs candidates at lots of local races, especially in California because that’s where they started.
Of course, if your main worry is having voted for a candidate that can win: good news! Psl can win every race it has a candidate in as far as I know. People were saying that they didn’t have enough ballot presence to tip the electoral college but they were wrong!
Also, the 2000 Presidential election results in Florida:
Holy shit, 2,912,790 people voted for Dubya in Florida?! How come nobody noticed this before? I feel like that might have affected the outcome of the election.
Ah yes, the true stolen election. But Al Gore conceded, even though it really was too close to call.
Since all ‘electoral votes’ go to the winner in the US, why do they even bother mentioning it? Its seems entirely vestigial
US states have the option of choosing to distribute votes proportionally.
They even have the choice to let electors pick whatever they want
I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 and will never make that mistake again.
Not to worry, Nader hasn’t been a candidate in a long time. Good luck out there!
That’s the official count, but we’ll never know what the actual count was. A bunch of people who “voted” for Nader were trying to vote for Gore but got screwed over by the format of the ballot.
My brother is voting for Jill Stein to “send a message to the Democrats” that they can’t automatically rely on liberal votes. He voted for Nader in 2000 to “send a message to the Democrats” that they can’t automatically rely on liberal votes. When I mention the 24-year gap here his response is “what’s your point?”
the electoral votes column juxtaposed with the other columns is just documenting what should be a crime.
Oh my god what a tight race. I wonder what the closest vote in US history was.
I remember 2020 where Trump did not win. All problems are fixed now.
No more children in cag- uhh I mean no more war in the middle- ah fuck surely no more fracking at least??
Would you rather he did?
These numbers are
notcorrect according to NY TimesEdit: I can’t math
I double checked the subtraction with the NYT numbers you linked to, and the numbers look correct to me. Which numbers are wrong?
I can’t math and I think I looked at the wrong state for Michigan
Stein wasn’t even the only third party candidate stealing votes. I voted for Gary Johnson with the Libertarian party as a “protest vote”. Glancing at national results, he had almost three times as many votes as Stein did.
I was 100% the moron this meme is targeted towards. I voted for Harris yesterday.
Hey good on you for being open to change your stance. So many people these days cant.
Same same man… Voting blue on Monday.
But you aren’t a moron if you learned from your mistakes. It means the opposite.
I wish we had ranked choice voting. Then these protest votes would still work and not screw with the system so bad and we could fight the stranglehold of the two party system.
My state is trying to constitutionally ban the use of ranked choice systems 🫠 fingers crossed the muppets just drew enough awareness to implement it after we reject this amendment
I want something like this where I live. We have FPTP here, but we have a viable third option in some areas. I’d be happier to to have more than 2 robust parties on the national stage.
Me too Stein in 2016. I was so mad at Clinton for what they did to Sanders. I am voting Harris as soon as voting is open here.
Bernie deserved so much better, and I fucking hate the way the 2016 democrats fucked him over.
Don’t forget 2020. They even made Warren stay in through super Tuesday just to fuck him over more. Not to mention thar snake trying to claim Sanders as a sexist with that hot mic. I never forgive her for that.
Third party voting; the really real reason Democrats and Republicans can’t get their candidates elected. lol
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The Jill Stein hate requires a lot of ignorance and very little faith in the candidate running at the head of the Democratic Party.
Obama crushed McCain and Romney, green party be damned. Biden squeaked by Trump on thinner margins than Trump beat Hilary. Nobody cared about Stein in that race.
What changed? Why are Democrats so terrified of the green party all of a sudden?
And the Shill Stein love requires zero common sense, and a shit load of entitlement.
The only people insisting someone is entitled to your vote are shills working for the Ds and Rs
No one is insisting anyone is entitled to anyone’s vote. We are however insisting that you try and understand how voting statistics and simple grade-school math works.
Everyone else has this figured out already? Why are we so close to an election and you still don’t? Do you seriously think that you have some big hidden secret figured out? You know better than the overwhelming majority of an entire country?
Every generation does this shit. You think you know how it works. You don’t.
No one is insisting anyone is entitled
a shit load of entitlement.
:-/
Everyone else has this figured out already?
There arguments have been made. You simply don’t like the conclusions other people have reached.
It’s amusing that you have the nerve to accuse others of being shills.
It’s curious to see what touches your nerves
This, but since dot world is infested with Reddit liberals you’re getting down voted into oblivion.
They’re getting downvoted into oblivion because everyone here knows better.
It’s always easy to be the most ignorant one in the the room if you ignore everyone that tries to tell you how and why you’re wrong.
Because Biden just squeaked by Trump. Leading to 50%-ish of the US population and 80%-ish of Republican voters believing that the last election got stolen. Also leading to a lot of election officials in key states being replaced by fair election denying nutjobs.
Haven’t you been paying attention in the past few years?
I’m not even in the US and I’m already exhausted with the BS that’s upcoming, if there’s no landslide victory for any of the candidates.
Be aware that any third party vote will be a vote for trump. If that’s what you truly want, I fear for your sanity.
Btw, it’s not true that nobody cared about Stein in the previous election. Back then they too said “a vote for Stein is a vote for trump”. You may not have heard it personally, but that message was out there. And it’s still true today!
I’m voting Jill. All your liberal gaslighting just hardens my resolve. I don’t care how many convoluted explanations you come up with to say I’m voting for Trump. My ballot never said Trump and never will.
Correct, but your ballot helps Trump win nonetheless.
No, your refusal to field an actual popular candidate with actual progressive policies helps Trump win.
Homie, I do not control who the DNC fields. I am basing my strategy on the facts of the situation as they are presented to me. Where’s your popular candidate?
Right, you only tirelessly shill for them by browbeating anyone that has a problem with their candidate currently overseeing a genocide.
Someone not even from the US understands this better than you?
Man… you have no excuses.
At this point it’s clear to me why you’re here and what you’re about.
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My ballot never said Trump and never will.
When your vote comes with a free red hat, it kinda does.
I was that moron too in 2016.
Never again.
I’m going to dress up as third party voting for Halloween
Don’t you think clowns are a little overdone?
Well apparently they still scare irrational people.
