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Man, I almost want to say “I love it”. Remove the “snap” and the “immutable” and I’m all in.
Almost there 🤏🏽I don’t understand why people want immutable. I don’t know all that much about Linux but on my Steamdeck it keeps getting in the way anytime I try to do anything
You certainly have to learn new ways of doing things when you want to tinker, but they are basically UNBREAKABLE, which is my main plus point. I’m busy, I need my PC to be reliable. I don’t want to have to troubleshoot stuff just to keep it up and running.
If I had more time I would really enjoy the tinkering, but I don’t so I need my distro just work.
Immutable is fantastic in theory. Where it falls apart is having to basically rebuild the whole distro every time you want to make a change. It should be there your base distro is immutable, then any extra changes go on an additional mutable layer but that would be difficult to set up. (You’d need a package manager like Nixos or something.)
your base distro is immutable, then any extra changes go on an additional mutable layer
That is exactly how OsTree and other layering solutions work. Only Nix requires a whole distro rebuild.
And even then with
nixos-rebuild switchyou won’t really notice that you’re “rebuilding” anythingIt isn’t, though. Package layering modifies the install itself. See: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/fedora-silverblue/getting-started/#_flatpak_command_line
The big problem with the way ostree works is that installing things has side effects. Every item you install with ostree makes all future items slower to install, including regular os updates. This is a significant flaw in the way they designed it and really makes immutable oses less attractive.
It’s not a flaw. Ostree is a last resort, you should be using containerized software. Layering a package should only be done when strictly necessary and not as the regular way to manage packages. If you need an overtly customized system, you use Nix or universal blue to design your new system declaratively and create your custom image.
That is a flaw. Flatpak is great where it works but Flatpak doesn’t solve all problems, neither does any one solution except os level modification. It can be a last resort by it should be a last resort that works. The layering system could be put together such that you don’t get side effects of installing packages like that. It might be tough to fix but that doesn’t make it not a flaw.
Please remember that no one is taking anything away from you. If you don’t like it, you don’t have to use it. Traditional package managing isn’t going away any time soon. You are safe. Others can have their preferred tech, and you don’t have to like it. It’s ok to have different tastes.
Some people like it, I don’t like and will never mess with it. I do understand why some folks like it. It’s basically for those who want a system that’ll never break to a point where they can’t access their data. I just can’t use it
I personally don’t tinker much with the OS. I want it to stay out of the way and let me do things. In the case of Bazzite, everything I need for gaming is just there and works without me lifting a finger.
I like the safety and simplicity immutables bring.
If I’m doing something out of the ordinary, a temporary container usually suffices.
It’s really made the switch from Windows as a daily driver much easier.
There’s KDE Neon already. The whole point of this distribution is the atomic immutable part.
Neon isn’t arch based, which is why this one piqued my interest.
Then just install KDE in your Arch install. Or use endeavorOS with KDE, or any other Arch based OS with KDE. Don’t be dismissive of other people’s interests.
Not being dismissive, just expressing an interest in something different.
It’s just Arch with Plasma then…
That is being maintained by the kde team.
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Why? What’s the issue with Snap? Is Flatpak any better?
Yeah, Flatpak is far better. The most glaring issue: Canonical hosts the only Snap backend, you can’t host it yourself. Flatpak on the other hand is fully open.
Don’t introduce proprietary crap just so companies can profit off of it.
Don’t introduce proprietary crap just so companies can profit off of it.
I agree but I think it’s the user who should be able to make the informed choice (ie. during installation)
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This is a stupid argument. In FSF’s eyes even having nonfree repository (ie. for drivers) is bad so this is completely irrelevant for anyone considering flatpak or snap. Both have nonfree stuff in there.
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I’m not arguing whether snap or flatpak is better. Flatpak is better.
But your arguments are going against each other. You disagree that FSF should tell you what software you can use but then you want to tell other users what software they can use. If you use flatpak despite of FSF’s opinions, you should let people use snap despite of your opinion.
Honestly, why enable this kind of behavior in any way? Any user is free to make an informed choice by installing it themselves.
We all know how this goes. Once a critical mass is reached, enshittification begins to milk everything dry. By making it an installer option, you’re legitimizing it and supporting a worse future for the Linux desktop.
Ok but KDE has official Snap packages so they already are “legitimizing it”. Also snap won’t be able to entshittify anything. Snapd is still open source, so you can just repackage the software for different package system.
My guy. There is no open backend for Snap. If Ubuntu enshittifies Snap, nobody can host an alternate backend for them. How does the client being open source help you?
You simply use a different packaging format as I said in the previous comment.
If it’s only there like in KDE Neon, I’m fine with it. I don’t want any of my distro apps to come as Snaps though.
I use Karch, btw.
Will they be using btrfs snapshots or subvolumes to make it immutable?
Snapshots are subvolumes.
Subvolumes.
Snap WTF?
Ehh to snaps. That would 100% be the first thing of support to drop if I were them. That said it cool to see more immutable distros experimenting, I wonder how much overlap there is the Kalpa since it is btfs based.
Honestly there definitely still seems some good space for innovation in the immutable space before we “figure it out”, so the more smart people experimenting the better!
I am not an expert but I don’t think Snap support can be added to an immutable distro after installation, meaning there is going to be some software that simply cannot be easily installed. Snap support is basically a legacy support feature at this point but I think it’s nice to cover their bases if they are trying to make something for widespread adoption.
I found out about this yesterday when searching for the KDE sources to make some alterations to the lock screen. I guess this distro is not for me.
Makes sense that it includes snap given that KDE officially supports their apps packaged as snaps, unlike Gnome.
If I recall correctly, aren’t they going for an Arch base? I assume they’re going to be enabling AppArmor so that the snap sandboxing is mostly working, except for the patches Canonical have failed to upstream so far.
Supporting both snaps and apparmor above selinux would be disappointing to me. Snaps more so, I at least get why AppArmor has supporters
Yes it is an Arch base. Not sure on the apparmor stuff and snap is basically banned from the Arch repos so it’s relegated to the AUR which makes it a pain.
I thought we all agreed that “immutable” is a confusing term and that we should call it “atomic”
edit: I was wrong
Who said that?
Red Hat
Fedora has pushed for the change by rebranding their immutable distros as Fedora Atomic Desktops, and these are likely the most popular immutable distros. Bazzite’s homepage also describes the distro as atomic, but never mentions the term immutable.
I disagree, because they are not the same thing.
Immutable means read only root.
Atomic means that updates are done in a snapshotted manner somehow. It usually means that if an update fails, your system is not in a half working state, but instead will be reverted to the last working state, and that updates are all or nothing.
I create a btrfs snapshot before updates on my Arch Linux system. This is atomic, but not immutable.*
There is also “image based” which distros like ublue (immutable, atomic) are, but Nixos (also immutable and atomic) are not.
*only really before big updates tbh, but I know some people do configure snapshits before all updates.
How is atomic less confusing? Immutable means that something doesn’t change, atomic means that it’s the size of an atom or has nuclear energy
EDIT: I’ve learned that some people are overly pedantic about the meaning and practical use of the word “immutable”, so much so that they decided to create a bigger confusion by giving another word a completely different and exclusive meaning
atomic has had a meaning for a very long time in IT, don’t pretend that it’s something made up bullshit. with this thinking we could just throw out the word mutable/immutable too, what is it my computer is radioactive and I’ll get cancer from it? of course not, because it has a different meaning with computers, and people in the know (not even just professionals because I’m not one) know it.
atomic means that if multiple things would change, they will either change at once, or if the task failed none of it will change.
sometimes these are called transactions, suse calls it transactional updates. but is that any better? now the complaint will be that suse must have transacted away all the money from your bank account!and distros are obviously not immutable, that’s just plainly misleading. we update them, someone does that daily. updating requires it to be mutable, to be modifiable.
Atomic in software refers to an operation that cannot be interrupted, like the updates in these distros. Immutable is a more confusing term, as it leads users to believe that cannot control parts of the system, when in reality these distros still have tools to do so.
How could you install anything or change any setting if it “doesn’t change” ?
Settings live in user space. Software exist in containers like AppImage, Flatpak or Distrobox. If something need deep system integration, they can be layered on top of the system in the user layer. Immutable does NOT mean less control. Just exerting control over the system in a different, usually more systematic, automatic and deterministic way.
Ah yes, the immutable OS, except for all of the various mutable parts.
We should totally not call it anything less confusing.
It’s not confusing at all… How is this any more confusing than:
Flatpak - they’re not literally flat…
Snap - I’ve never seen or heard any evidence of something snapping by any definition of the word I’m aware of.
Dolphin - what the fuck is this, no sea life whatsoever!
Kate - this is a text editor, not a person.
Distrobox - not in an actual box.
etc.
The main difference to your examples is that an “immutable OS” is in fact mutable, while none of your examples describe themselves with an adjective that is contradicting with their function/inner workings.
Flatpak is a pretty good name, because it makes software flat in the sense that it avoids having a (tall) dependency tree.
I installed Bottles, but was disappointed when it didn’t actually have anything to do with bottles.
If you think every name of every product, etc., is going to be literal… you’re gonna have a tough time in life.
It’s not semantics, they are two different things.
And to your edit… Are you upset that there are two different words that mean two different things? I don’t understand.
they decided to create a bigger confusion by giving another word a completely different and exclusive meaning
Isn’t this just how words work…?
Immutable does not mean “not changing”, but rather that you don’t have the rights to change. If you take the immutable option away, then its changing again, like when you update your system. People who have a problem with the term say, “see its not immutable, the term is a lie!”. Which I kind of agree, but somewhat conflicted.
Atomic is an attempt to create a new “meaning” with a word, that cannot be misunderstood. Its trying to avoid the situation of “Free” in example. But I don’t like the term Atomic either, because it just suggest to me that everything is split into many little parts and is not self explanatory like Immutable. I’m conflicted here too.
I’m always conflicted.
No? Why?
Not all. Red Hat started this by naming their immutable distributions with “atomic” (but then not consistently…). Some people agreed, but not everyone.
What does atomic mean in this sense? That seems more confusing than immutable.
How could you install anything or change any setting if it was truly immutable?
Immutable OS makes sense in certain scenarios, but not in home computing.
Do a little research, dude… Do you think you’re the first person to have those questions/issues? That’s all been addressed.
I’ve been on an atomic/immutable distro for a few months now (Bazzite), and the experience has been great.
It means a change either applied completely and successfully, or not at all (think “atomic transactions” in databases).
Atomic in software refers to an operation that cant be interrupted because it happens in one step. This one of the big selling points of atomic or immutable distros. Your system will not be left in a broken state by cancelling an update because updates do not take multiple steps, unlike traditional distros.
Maybe they’ll fix the sddm custom theming? It’s currently broken on all immutables and doesn’t allow custom themes.
Yeah that’s certainly annoying but still relying on SDDM to solve this. There is a movement to see if we can import SDDM into the KDE umbrella but it’s a bit stalled at the moment.
Just curious because Distrowatch can be easily gamed; does anyone know how this might affect the linux consumer market? I’m using Mint and see no reason to switch to this. I used to nerd out about different distros but aside from the enterprise distros or Debian or Arch preferences I don’t see why people are using smaller distros anymore. Hobbyist i guess?
Thanks for de-influencing me out of switching to KDE plasma, mint and ubuntu are the only distros I’ve tried and I’ve been thinking about trying something new
New users (like me) that aren’t necessarily passionate about linux and just looking for a windows alternative can be easily persuaded early on
My switch to Linux started 1,5 years ago with Manjaro KDE - and since then, I am still a fan of KDE, which is kind of “Windows UI done right” for me. Ergonomic, configurable, consistent. I also find Pantheon, Enlightenment, and Budgie to be cool concepts, but from a practical side, KDE is a no-brainer for me.
Mint comes with Cinnamon by default, and I guess that’s what you’re using. For me, Cinnamon is too old-fashioned, it’s like you’re back to at least Windows 7 timing. Some people like it, but for me it’s just old and out of touch with the progress of UI’s.
GNOME used in Ubuntu is good with app theming (yay for adwaita!), it is unique and minimalistic, but its overall design is just…not for everyone, and customization is heavily tied to unsafe practice of plugins which has been exploited many, many times.
With all that said, try everything out in a VM or something and see what’s good for you. There are really no wrong choices!
I totally forgot about using a VM, can you recommend one besides virtualbox?
VMWare, GNOME Boxes, QEMU+virt-manager
Personally using the latter, appears to have the best support and more configuration options compared to alternatives, as well as advanced options like GPU passthrough etc, though it has a bit more of a learning curve, and each alternative option should be fine.
Looks like there’s still something you can try, brother.
After bashing my face against the wall getting lutris to run StarCraft 2, I’m avoiding looking at my OS too hard
I feel like I should try arch just once so I understand the memes
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Do you know what the issue was? Iam on kubuntu with the flatpak version (important) of lutris and battle.net + sc2 just runs out of the box. With a normal installation of lutris it didn’t.
Kept telling me I was missing Vulkan and lib C (I this k) and I kept installing it wrong somehow. Eventually I downloaded steam and ran one game (potion craft) and it installed everything I needed automatically, lutris worked just fine after that
Arch is a make it yourself distro. It comes barebones and you install what you need (which in my opinion gives better knowledge about your system). And the packages are up-to-date which is good if you are gaming.
If you don’t like to tinker then Arch may not be for you. Something arch-based could be a better fit. Like Garuda or EndeavourOS.
When you say you can install what you need, what does that mean exactly? Does that mean things like lib C or vulkan or drivers so my USB ports work? Seems to me like I don’t actually understand how a computer works at a fundamental level when I’ve never had to configure a sound card or manually install a driver and the explanations I get are too technical to practically apply
I’d like to understand my PC well enough to use Arch but I’m finding a hard time figuring out what I’m missing exactly. Practically speaking, what does direct X or vulkan do?
When it comes to Arch the wiki is your friend. It will tell you if additional configuration is required to get your packages working and what other dependencies can be installed. If something isn’t working properly then the wiki probably knows why.
Arch comes with no drivers and additional packages by default. You need to install them manually. But you don’t need to install every package for your system manually. If you need glibc it will most certainly get pulled down as a dependency.
You don’t need to know every part of the system to use arch but you need to be interested enough to learn how your system works if something is not working or you want to configure your system in a certain way.
For starters I would recommend going with something Arch-based like Garuda or EndeavorOS if you want to learn Arch. I started off with my Steam Deck and later Garuda on my desktop. Once I was comfortable enough around Arch I decided to install vanilla Arch (manually, the wiki way) in a VM. When installing my system I wrote down every command I used and from that it snowballed in to my own install script for arch. That taught me a lot.
Alright I’ll give it a try, can you recommend a VM other than virtual box? I was having issues with dependencies when installing it
I too bashed my head with lutris on some games to the point that i gave up on Linux. Then i tried it again but this time using Bottles and it’s working really fine for me, almost flawless.
Yeah I think it’s time to stop being lazy and actually learn how wine works, I can’t get Warcraft 3 to work
Did you try lutris out of flatpak? I don’t know why but this version has less issues. I compared lutris vs bottles and for me the performance of bottles was way worse. (Sadly). Because the bottles ui is much better
I didn’t try that version, I just transitioned to Bottles. I didn’t notice any performance loss though I might compare it just to see what it’s like.
I still wonder what the difference made. I would image, it should be the same.
There are better ways than using Lutris
- Try with Bottles
- add Battle.Net as a non-steam game
Can I run an installer off a mounted iso in a bottle?
Yes
mainly hobbyists or some very specific feature. For example antiX for old hardware or Spiral Linux for the better installer, gaming specific distros for gaming etc. Also there are protest distros which advertise not having something - usually SystemD.
Everybody’s bashing snaps but you can literally package drivers as snaps. If you don’t think that’s cool af I don’t know what is.
99% of people don’t understand anything about Snaps except from thinking they’re worse than Flatpak
So you’re telling me that if snaps take off and become a standard there’s a good chance I’ll have to use them just to get my drivers? Now I hate them even more!
This is highly unlikely. Snapd is open source so you can just repackage the software for your distro of choice. I don’t think giving users the ability to use both Flatpak and Snap is bad. Though I would put Snap behind a disclaimer due to Snap Store’s history.
No but you see the drivers will be (must be) approved by Canonical which surely makes things better :|
it’s actually the other way. Canonical has had troubles policing Snap Store from malware
what’s the benefit of packaging drivers that way? surely not permission separation
Probably not the purpose of this distro but using snaps in this way are a massive benefit for embedded systems
Alright I am installing this
Hopefully the stable version will become a competitor to Linux Mint
Making a LFS distro already show you all the GNU mess! Why another distro?
