I was gonna title this “And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price you have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice” and then write “Stuck inside of America with the fascism blues again” here, but I’m not sure if that comes off like gloating and that’s honestly the last thing I want to do this morning.
Who’s that and why should I care what he has to say about anything.
He’s a political pundit who used to work for TYT and now streams on twitch. He generally has pretty good analysis, particularly with regard to the middle east.
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oh good, it’s hasan, my favorite (not terroristic propaganda spreading) “political” commentator
I switched my registration party from Democrat to Independent today. Tired of this shit. Enough is enough I’m voting my values from now on.
The fact that you’re registered is wild to me. One of the few things my state has right is having open primaries imo
Speaking as a hungarian having lived under Orbán’s rule for 16 years and counting, don’t worry; after this point you will have either no elections or they will be a pointless mockery only.
I can’t believe the bullshit with the Cheneys. When a war criminal like Dick Cheney endorses you, you disavow them.
Harris even got endorsed by Richard Spencer, who’s a white nationalist, and she didn’t say shit! What was she thinking? “I’ve got the neocon vote, now maybe I’ll get the Nazi vote”?
I can’t believe the bullshit with the Cheneys. When a war criminal like Dick Cheney endorses you, you disavow them.
And lemmy’s centrists were so goddamned happy that Cheney endorsed. They finally got the party to move so far to the right that they got Dick Cheney’s endorsement. That was when they considered it a win and they didn’t care about what happened after.
“Stein got a Nazi to endorse her even though she disowned it, she’s horrid.”
“Harris openly loved Cheney and didn’t say anything Spencer, she’s the the most progressive person to ever run!”
why can’t people see that we will never go left till we go far enough right.
Is this not far enough?
apparently not. Don’t worry because once things get bad enough we will have wonderful revolution which will take us to a new paradise social order. Just like how the nazis were stopped.
The Nazis were stopped by the most powerful military force the world has ever seen. You know, the one that trumpler just became Commander and Chief of once again.
The Nazis were stopped by
The Red motherfucking Army. Put some fucking respect on their name.
I thought it was sarcasm, but couldn’t be sure because I see genuine statements like that on this platform quite frequently.
I grew up in a world where sarcasm became actuality.
The people history will remember as Nazis winging around trying to blame everything but themselves as Nazis.
This irony is goddamn delicious.
Because “After Trump, Our Turn” doesn’t seem to have much historical evidence of success.
yeah I feel like there is this myth of huge pushes left and right but its pretty much been between right and center.
Swinging left wouldn’t have worked either.
There is no high horse. There is no right path. Us Americans have the critical thinking skill of an ant. The left should have fought dirty with a full blown propaganda machine, populist lies, and blatant collusion if they wanted to win, simple as that.
It needs a leftist Trump.
What are Republican’s gonna do… demonize democrats even more?
They don’t need to lie, they just need to get better at being direct and stip pulling punches or taking the high road to avoid offending moderates or whatever their stupid logic is.
Instead of cozying up to Cheney, just call Trump a felon constantly, remind people about how he put migrants in cages and is now using durect nazi rhetoric against them. Those aren’t lies, and they jind of half assed brought them up, but they need to actually lean in hard and constantly.
They did call him a felon constantly! They plastered everything he says in every outlet, screamed his threats at the top of their lungs.
No one cares!
That doesn’t get you in people’s facebook, tiktok, and youtube feeds.
Dems need a candidate who’s already famous. They need one totally unchained, unhinged, who would say awful but barely not illegal things in public, so they’re plastered on every news outlet constantly. They need someone who’s a little iffy about vaccines, who will print money and send people fat checks with their face stamped on it, who will straight up collude with the powerful in public, so calling it out does nothing.
They need a liberal Trump.
I’m not sure who it would be… maybe a big pop star that kinda loses their marbles? Think Taylor Swift. But the dems are not going to win a Trumpist election running someone like Bidden, Harris, Bernie, AoC or whatever.
Don’t think it has to explicitly be a shitty person but the Left definitely needs to realize it’s a popularity contest. Charisma and moxie win it cuz voters want it simple.
Look how FDR swept Hoover. Went around promising Happy Days are Here Again and he’ll whip the government into fixing the individual’s problems. Blasted his aura on the radio and newsreels which kept voters’ eyes on him. Then kept them for 3 more terms by saying fuck the red tape and making tangible things happen (which is probably what drives people to Trump despite the different results)
People want to back the cool guy who tells em it’ll be alright. Simple as
Then kept them for 3 more terms by saying fuck the red tape and making tangible things happen (which is probably what drives people to Trump despite the different results)
Please don’t kill me, but I saw this appeal when Trump first ran. In 2016, his rhetoric on withdrawing from foreign wars and similar stuff, when Hillary was the other choice, was very appealing. Of course my eyes were opened wide by his actual statements/history, and then his presidency.
I think what’s different now is the feedback loop is broken. In the 30s, I assume people connected what FDR was doing to what was happening. Everyone lived in the same reality.
But now people live in complete personalized realities inside their phones and apps. Perception is extremely selective, issues are complicate. And just, like, looking him up on Wikipedia and news archives like I do is completely alien now. I know children and relatives who literally don’t know how to use the internet and just live in their scrolling feeds.
Nah you’re completely right. The appeal was that he’d push past the usual ineffectualness of politics and get things done.
Bumble through the red tape too quickly for consequences to catch him while claiming everything as a win.
The warping of reality hides what he’s actually doing/who he is and too many people are just red team vs blue now so will keep on supporting. They’ll think a win for him is a win for them and won’t look further to think otherwise (because who wants to think they’ve lost?).
Almost wish Biden would’ve gone full Mr. Bean and just oopsied his way through using executive power. Oops, forgave student loans. Oops, taxed the rich. Oops, legal weed. Trump already showed the system is too slow to stop it and doing things that actually helped folks would be disastrous for any group trying to undo it once people felt the effects. Oh well…
Hasan😈
But I don’t know who that is, lol. Not until now.
Dems need a candidate who’s already famous. They need one totally unchained, unhinged, who would say awful but barely not illegal things in public, so they’re plastered on every news outlet constantly.
They need a liberal Trump.
What chuds like about Trump is that he jokes around and appears to be passionate about what he talks about, and instead of backing down when challenged, will face it head on and double down. Someone who will spit in the face of his enemies without apologizing after. Get anyone who can riff and mock their enemies while standing firm on their positions.
They need someone who’s a little iffy about vaccines, who will print money and send people fat checks with their face stamped on it, who will straight up collude with the powerful in public, so calling it out does nothing.
I dont think they actually like any of this, just the way he does it inspires confidence. They care very little about the actual policy specifics.
That’s all they really want is confidence. They aren’t confident in their place within a changing world and want someone who exudes that confidence so they can delegate their trust to someone who has it where they have none.
I only said Hasan because he’s funny, comfortable being an asshole, confident, and isn’t a pushover.
The checks, IMO, worked very well. People loved that.
Don’t underestimate the power (and historical precedent) of simple populist policy. It’s not super effective campaigning, but its very effective at keeping someone in office.
Swinging left wouldn’t have worked either.
It absolutely would have. Progressive policy is insanely popular and easy to campaign on by virtue of being designed to help everyone. Do you think Bernie had such high favorably ratings because they have a thing for 80 year old white dudes?
Tell people “healthcare will be free” or “We will cap rent and build housing that won’t cost more than 3x local median income” and then people can’t afford not to vote for you.
Biden could have cut off arms to Israel, and hundreds of thousands of students so politically activated they’re willing to risk their degrees to protest would be doing everything in their power to keep Trump out.
Instead they sent the police to kick the shit out of those kids, at great expense to the colleges, and called them antisemitic.
I’m afraid exit polls say otherwise. Kamala’s economic policies were the most left wing we’ve seen in decades (a wealth tax?). If people cared about actual economic issues, such as inequality, they’d have elected her.
This election was lost because Latino men voted for Trump (for starters). We needed populism, not progressivism, to appeal to the small minded American voter. Don’t you see that? Most American men are misogynistic, racist psychos. And they’re unhappy. You appeal to them with populism full stop.
Wealth tax to collect more money to give to Israel and the most lethal military and killing immigrants is what she ran on, she ran as a right wing populist and lost because Trump is a better right wing populist
Small minded voters are told what to think, Harris refused to tell them to want free healthcare because that shit pisses off donors
Delusional
Yes, Democrats don’t know how politics works, they ask Republicans to decide which issues are important, and then argue a slightly more moderate response to those issues is best. Sometimes they accidentally win doing that, if the economy is good and people are happy with moderation, but that’s probably not going to be true any time soon.
they ask Republicans to decide which issues are important
I love this. They are so reactionary and seem almost incapable of counter messaging. I say almost because they managed it once with the tarrifs are sales tax response.
I’m not going to say that the Latino shift isn’t huge, but this really feels like a strawman (to a certain extent). Even without the full 2024 turnout numbers, we know less people turned out to vote than 2020. I think NBC last night said Harris was projected to have 15 million less votes than Biden, and Trump voter numbers were steady, so I don’t think it all went to Trump.
There are multiple factors that went into the outcome we have today, and only mentioning the Latino men or the pro-Palestine constituents and ignoring the failures of the DNC (starting with not having a convention) feels really weird.
The Latino men are one example. My point is that Democrats focused on policy and policy is ineffective when the electorate is a bunch of barely sentient macho dipshits angry about economic issues they can’t understand (not to mention most young men are broke and can’t get laid). You use populism. You blame the rich. You blame the wealthy elites. You channel Bernie Sanders.
Every other sentence out of Harris’s mouth should have been about the billionaires stealing from the working class. Instead we saw a bunch of well reasoned economic policy that went completely over everyone’s head.
Ok, I see your point. You’re not wrong here. But I’m always surprised at how averse US politicians are to anything perceived as left wing populism, while they tolerate (or even eat up) the right wing version.
Maybe it’s a remnant of McCarthyism.
Why then do countries with existing left parties and proportional representation elect further and further right-wing parties in Europe?
It’s simple: They promise easy solutions for complicated problems. Banning immigration will fix all crime and the economy, opposing LGBTQ+ rights will ensure a return of the better olden days, climate change is nothing to be worried about etc etc
And even people depending on social support will gladly shoot themselves in their feet if it means someone else will have it worse.
Why then do countries with existing left parties and proportional representation elect further and further right-wing parties in Europe?
Obviously they haven’t gone far left enough. /s
Some people want easy solutions. Not unlike Trump voters.
Tell people “healthcare will be free” or “We will cap rent and build housing that won’t cost more than 3x local median income” and then people can’t afford not to vote for you.
- It would have to go through congress, which wouldn’t approve it, so it would be a lie.
- They told people “I won’t do mass deportations or order the assassinations of my enemies” and it didn’t work. Why do you assume that this other stuff would?
It would have to go through congress, which wouldn’t approve it, so it would be a lie.
The US president is probably the single most powerful position in the world between explicit powers and people who serve at his pleasure and can be replaced at will, and undefined powers that that extend as far as anyone is able to stop them, as we saw under Trump. If they just flagrantly broke the law and kept doing it until the SCOTUS and others actually stopped them, the dems would be far more popular than just throwing their hands up and saying "better things aren’t possible.
There’s a lot of indirect ways they can get what they want done, whether it means appointing an AG and other department heads who will punish people who don’t go along or using the military’s vast legal protections and resources.
They told people “I won’t do mass deportations
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That’s not saying how you’ll improve people’s immediate conditions, just that trump will make them worse
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You can’t credibly say that when Biden deported more people than Trump.
If they just flagrantly broke the law and kept doing it until the SCOTUS and others actually stopped them, the dems would be far more popular than just throwing their hands up and saying "better things aren’t possible.
This is basically what FDR did with a lot of his social and work programs during his presidency. He’d establish an agency or authority or whatever, regardless of the legality, and by the time the court’s or whoever made the decision to close it, they’d have 5 others going simultaneously, and/or they’d make another one. And the process would start all over again.
Yup. The nice thing about policy that helps everyone is that it’s incredibly unpopular to kill. Biden could have burned student debt in the most visible way possible, and then dared the SCOTUS to create new debt. If they took the bait, you’d have 46.2 million people ready to vote for anyone who promises to expand the SCOTUS.
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This was also a congressional election you know.
- It would have to go through congress, which wouldn’t approve it, so it would be a lie.
The policies are extremely popular and universal. Doesn’t really matter in a politicalcampaign if you struggle to achieve those ends. Trying is important and failing gives you ammunition against those who oppose extremely popular policies for next campaign.
- They told people “I won’t do mass deportations or order the assassinations of my enemies” and it didn’t work. Why do you assume that this other stuff would?
The bottom line is that the average person isn’t listening for anything besides “how is the candidate going to help me because I feel like I’m drowning”. The right scapegoats something and promises to fix your problems by hurting the scapegoat (immigrants, minorities, socialists, whatever). This is a lie, but it’s just as, if not more, direct of a solution so some voters will support them.
Harris had attention when she said things like stopping price gouging and providing in-home elder care. Those were extremely popular ideas that she didn’t focus on. Instead, she pivoted right.
It’s easy to get students to protest. They’re young, it’s exciting.
Voting isn’t loud or angry, so it doesn’t feel effective. It feels like actual work. And so they skip it.
I’m sorry, forgive me if I don’t take advice from the party that just lost. After Kamala picked Walz she was up by more than 5 points in many states that she was trailing in at the end of her campaign. People skip voting when you pick unpopular policies like Praise the Cheney’s, No Different than Zionist Joe, Billionaire Mark Cuban Is the Greatest, and Hollywood Loves Me.
Yup, other than picking Walz each new thing the campaign did made me less excited aboit voting for Harris. I would have rather had Walz lead the ticket, at least he would have been an unknown white guy that the right wing propaganda would have had trouble vilifying.
I don’t think the white guy thing is as important as at least he would have been someone that wasn’t directly tied to the White House that has been lying about genocide for the last year, or apartheid for the last 4 years.
You underestimate the racism and sexism of rhe general population.
OK, but the people who are that racist and sexist are voting republican anyway. Of the dems many mistakes, running a black woman wasn’t one of them.
I’m not pretending racism and sexism doesn’t exist, but that didn’t cause her to lose. I hope one day you’ll come to accept that.
I don’t think you’re wrong but I also have to add that I won’t accept that we just can’t run black women for offices for that reason
e; I should have read this thread further, it looks like other people are already discussing this
But the left in the USA is like half a dozen people, they don’t even have a party, how would they organize it?
Because Democrats are just a more “moderate” right.
Everyone from Sanders to Dick fucking Cheney endorsed Harris. Anyone who was paying any attention and wasn’t a literal fascist voted for her. The direction of the swing seems irrelevant.
The swing fell short because it’s not so much about direction than strength. Macron in 2017 ran the most “hard center” presidential campaign imaginable. Difference is it worked, not because his centrist program was particularly novel but in large part because he is a very charismatic figure and managed to create a voting base of hopefuls for himself. The same can broadly be argued about Obama (whose first act as president was to essentially absolve the previous administration and Wall St of their many sins in case anyone forgot how moderate he was).
Harris ran on a platform of… “I’m not him”. Which to any reasonable person is an obvious “yeah OK”, but unfortunately most Americans are apathetic cretins who will refuse to move their asses to a polling station if the guy on the telly doesn’t promise them a blowie at the voting booth. And the Democrat establishment is simultaneously too big to fail and incapable of producing an actually charismatic leader.
Well, all that and the obvious election interference from Musk, Putin, and the ontological inability of traditional media not to platform literal fascists.
Harris ran on a platform of… “I’m not him”.
Which was incredibly stupid considering how popular he is.
I mean, she did try other things as well and that characterization is a bit reductive. More correctly I think we can say that “she’s not him” is the only thing the Sanders->Cheney spectrum could ever agree on and nothing else she did “stuck”. Sanders wasn’t happy about the pro-israel stuff and Cheney probably wasn’t happy about the “tax the rich” stuff.
Choosing one clear ideology and sticking to it might sound great to the progressives on here (and to people like Hasan), but I don’t have the hubris to think she or anyone within the Democratic party establishment actually had the charisma to pull that off either (maybe Michele Obama but she didn’t wanna do it so that’s the end of that plan). Especially considering Harris had like 4 months to pull a campaign together and did not have any previous popular good will to rely on.
4 months is very short and no matter how right you play your cards a lot of voters will not know anything about you other than “she’s not Him”. Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose (not that she did everything right but I think a postmortem will need to look back way further than that at Biden and Hillary and those who supported them).
She had an entire platform, but when I was actively trying to review it, I was constantly presented with Trump’s name & face on the Democrat’s website. That’s really poorly thought out.
(whose first act as president was to essentially absolve the previous administration and Wall St of their many sins in case anyone forgot how moderate he was).
I think this very thing led to the 2010 tea party wave election that fucked us for a decade and a similar thing has happened here, except it was the seeming inability of the Biden administration to hold Trump and his supporters accountable and not going after corporations making record profits during an inflationary crisis (“So how would you recommend they have done that?” Great question, I will let you know when I have a good answer).
e;
Well, all that and the obvious election interference from Musk, Putin, and the ontological inability of traditional media not to platform literal fascists.
This absolutely played a huge roll (also, voter suppressing laws passed by GOP governments), but I don’t know how to change any of that without having a Democratic party that consistently wins elections first
The FBI apparently learned some lessons on how to deal with Russian interference since 2016 and made some arrests this time around. Way too little too late though, and in January Trump’s cronies will take over and that’ll be that. Other countries should take notes though and start being much harsher on Russian trolls and their puppets. Unfortunately Von Der Layen recently fired the guy who was prosecuting Musk over Twitter so I’m not too confident anyone in power learned their lesson. Which is mind-boggling because russian-backed far-right parties are a meaningful electoral threat to people like Von Der Layen.
“How did you vote on your California ballot with several highly contentious ballot measures, Madam Vice President”
“I will not speak on this 5 days before the election.”
Leftists have been telling all the libs exactly what this path would lead to.
Looks like liberals ushered in a fascist regime, again. Funny how that always happens.
I don’t think that you can lay this disaster at the feet of Liz Cheney and a few other star Republicans. That is pretty lazy thinking, and suits a particular progressive viewpoint. This election is going to take years to figure out.
Cue the instant hot takes as to how the orange man climbed the hill he was already sitting on.
Dick Cheney is incredibly unpopular across the board in America. Having him endorse your campaign is asking to lose
Anyone who backs away and let’s Trump take charge just because Cheney also wants Trump gone is a fucking idiot.
The majority of the voters are fucking idiots. What now? Do you just admit defeat or try a different way to reach the fucking idiots?
That I don’t know? Seriously, how do you back up once you’ve gone over the cliff?
So you’re admitting defeat because you can’t imagine an actual progressive populist candidate that appeals to the things people care about (basically obama '08)
A lot of things have changed since 08, or haven’t you been paying attention?
Am i giving up? This war between the states has been going since 1861. With the exception of brief periods of lucidity, now and again, what has fundamentally changed?
Anyway, I’m not trying to talk anybody out of anything. Go at it. Make it work if you have the secret. Meet me back here in 2028 for a chat, if we both survive.
She should’ve rejected his endorsement the same way Jill Stein rejected the endorsement of David Duke. The fact that Harris accepted the endorsement of Dick Cheney and Richard Spencer is nuts.
Democrats are completely out of touch. them expecting voters putting other issues on top of them making ends meets and food on the table (like mocking Vance’s egg prices ), all the while most polls showing the economy is the biggest concern with 38 % of all voters, is just simply delusional
And they have lost both the popular and electoral college vote. meaning the real problem here is them.
And don’t get me started on the propaganda of Iowa’s early voters polls showing a Kamala landslide just 2 days before election day. If you live in a left wing bubble and believe this shit, than this should be a hard smack back into reality.
So I guess people actually think Trump and Musk are going to help them with their egg prices?
Yes, you might find it stupid or illogical, but they (trump , elmo) are seen as smart and successful, and they lived under better circumstances in the last Trump term.
That’s democracy, everyone has a say, whether their opinions or feelings are right or wrong. but instead of the democrats putting the work to meet these people they have chosen to belittle them. and that has cost them so far the Presidency and the Senate.
Oh of course they think Trump and Musk are very smart. That doesn’t surprise me.
I’m surprised that they think Trump and Musk give a fuck about egg prices.
“they lived under better circumstances in the last Trump term”
They lived under fucking Covid in the last Trump term, when everyone was confined to their homes while supply lines disintegrated and the cost of food more than doubled, while ashes from rampant forest fires rained down from a blood red sky.
That was only the end of it though. Through most of it, many aspects of the economy were better, for most people. He was just as complicit in why inflation, housing costs, etc. got so bad. However, do you think most people understand how the free money given, mostly under Biden, as a stimulus to the populace, had little effect on the inflation vs financial institutions drowning in oceans of free money, for 20 years? Do you think most people are even aware that was going on? Do you think most of them understand how private equity, and changes in its regulation, caused the housing cost crisis, and not supply being overwhelmed by the demand of immigrants?
I talked to someone I used to do underwriting, for things like mortgages, a few months back. He bought the immigrants buying up all the housing line. He just refused to believe private equity, something he definitely understands, is responsible, regardless of the fact that even those private equity institutions’ data say they are at fault. It is much easier to say “housing unaffordable, close border” than to have to address the massive systemic changes that need to be made.
they lived under better circumstances in the last Trump term
I was disinfecting my groceries, and Trump was confiscating my PPE to send it somewhere else. I was getting Covid checks, which was nice, but it wasn’t exactly the same as working. I couldn’t leave the house for a while. I couldn’t buy certain mechanical things without going on a 3-month wait list. I knew some people who died.
They think they lived under better circumstances in the last Trump term, because the media and people like you spreading a certain type of mental landscape and inviting them to inhabit it. But that’s not actually what happened.
instead of the democrats putting the work to meet these people they have chosen to belittle them
If belittling the people could cost you support in America, Trump would be in prison right now.
Now if you ask whether the media told people that Democrats were belittling them, now that’s a different story. That, to me, seems a lot more worth examining than it does to lecture the Democrats how important it is not to do some things they didn’t do, that the media said they did.
Lol! Most people get their information from social media. Most people interact with others on social media.
Most Republicans have been called “racist, bigot, misogynist, shitty, worthless, non-human, “Nazis” who deserve to be cast out if not “removed permanently” from society!!!” on social media.
For no other reason than they had a differing opinion than the hive-mind did.
The media didn’t have to tell me that liberals were belittling me.
Biden also called Trump supporters “garbage”. Clinton called us “deplorable”. And I have a funny suspicion that you don’t disagree. We have been dehumanized. I have to try my hardest to make it clear that I am, in fact, NOT a fucking Nazi before I post something that I know will be considered “Nazi speak”, just because it isn’t blind alegence to the Democratic candidate.
So…yeah…you can’t act like this is something the media implanted into our minds.
If you aren’t further left than the Democratic Party, then you are in fact a Nazi.
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People think that Trump is going to change things, which is very hard to argue against. Yes, it won’t be change for the better, but Harris was offering them 4 more years of the status quo that is currently hurting them.
No one can argue Trump didn’t get things done. He got a lot done, especially when you compare that to the perception people have of the Biden administration.
But I brought this up earlier: Trump may hate his followers, absolutely loathe them, but he still panders to them, even if it’s fake promises. He accomplishes things they want done, and shows he can make progress, something the Democrats botch literally anytime they get any semblance of power. Trump makes his constituents feel heard.
The Democrats, just, don’t. Everyone on Lemmy I’m sure has seen people offering criticism of Biden/Harris, and the response has been to immediately insult, scold, condescend, and shame the individual for not towing the party line. Your concerns, anxieties, hangups, none of that matters because fascism bad so stfu and vote and also fuck you anyway.
Trump’s supporters ask him to abolish vaccines, and he seriously considers it.
Harris’ supporters ask her to not support a genocide in Palestine, and she sends Bill Clinton to lecture them about why Israel has the right to do what they’re doing.
It’s a two-way street, the politicians just can’t keep demanding our votes and ignoring our issues. And if that’s what they’re going to do, then congratulations, you’ve turned your voting base apathetic, and you deserve to lose to fascism.
I saw someone else on here put it perfectly, Democrats feel entitled to votes. They think that because they are logically the lesser evil, not voting for them is wrong. They don’t even consider that American elections are not about logic, and are nearly entirely about emotions. They don’t feel the need to make their constituents feel heard because they think their constituents are idiots if they don’t vote for them. They don’t even stop to realize that they are still an evil.
Seeing some of that entitlement in these threads has been, frankly, infuriating. Blue MAGA is the right term, they act identically to Trump supporters. It’s everyone’s fault but Harris’.
I’ve been saying the entitlement thing since the midterms! You’re not entitled to someone’s vote just because the other option is fascism.
And this entitlement has turned a large part of eligible voters apathetic. What difference does it make if you vote if you’re always just voting for the lesser evil? If you’re never actually represented in the people you’re forced to choose between?
If you’re going to be fucked either way, what difference does it make if the party in power is fascist or not?
And yep, plenty of people today telling me I’m the problem, despite the fact I voted for Harris. I just am also not naive enough to think the average American should be impressed by the lackluster campaign she just ran, and the Democrats botched on the whole.
I never voted for Trump each time I was able to vote. Not once did it ever cross my mind.
And somehow we’re the evil people for wanting meaningful promises that improve the lives that fascism tempts. Never once voted for a Trump and since 2020, never voted for a Republican locally, I always skip the blanket primary when I can, since “I can promise you’re not totally crazy” isn’t a thing anymore.
When I ask “Why are we supporting these bad polices that Bush started?” I’m accused of being a useful idiot. When I ask “Why did we stop COVID protections and doing tests? Isn’t that what Trump wanted?” I’m called a Russian bot. At some point I just learned:
Oh you don’t care about kids in cages. You don’t care about the 9/11 amount of Americans dying from COVID. You don’t care about police killing innocent people. You don’t want anything good, you pretend to for votes. You got jealous of how devoted and rabid Trump’s fans are, and wanted a piece of that fascist pie.
I give up. Democrats don’t want answers and polices, they just wanna be “Not the current evil guy.”
It really does feel like that. “Vote for lesser evil” but do nothing to be less evil.
Blue MAGA was a joke that became reality. There’s several people more angry at “I was entitled to more votes!” than Trump winning the votes and ending everything else.
I’m not even American and I constantly see Lemmy users dunk on me for saying Biden/Harris are corpo dems who don’t have policies most people wanted. That DNC and democrat politicians will be to blame if Drumpf wins.Not voters. Not independents. The Party and the Party Leaders.
I was so confused because the voting pattern on this comment is so dramatically different than it was on the comments early on in this exact same discussion here, or in other posts where we’ve been discussing basically the exact same thing.
Sort the comments on this post by “old” and you’ll see what I’m talking about. You won’t see everyone claiming that the Democrats did nothing at all for the economy for the last 4 years. It won’t be all the other way, either, but you’ll see a healthy interplay between a couple of different main points of view. It won’t be all one way.
I don’t usually come to the big communities on lemmy.world for pretty much this exact same reason, so like I say, I was just confused. I looked back on some of my other comments in other communities, where there’s actually a large-scale consensus that yesterday’s tragedy was largely the fault of the people who were holding out voting for the Democrats because they hadn’t done enough to fix everything up, including for example the economy from the last time the Republicans broke it all.
One thing that I suddenly realized is that some of those comments with that very-different-from-this consensus are on Beehaw, which while it still has representation on it from the socialists and anti-liberals, whatever you want to call it, has defederated from sh.itjust.works and lemmy.world because they were at the time too infested with troll accounts. And I used some of my magic powers to look at who’s been voting for this comment with all these universal upvotes…
And lo, I was enlightened.
Edit: Another funny thing happened. The parent comment that this is in reply to was the top comment, 3 hours old, when I made this comment, which was the only reply at that time. Now, in just the last half hour, there are suddenly 7 other comments and replies competing for space at the top of the page, instead of it just being the parent comment and this one as a reply. A lot of those are some variety of “Democrats fucked it” comment.
My guess is that there will be a flurry of continued conversation, and then once things die down, it will all somehow coalesce into there being a few “Democrats fucked it” comments all the way up at the top of the page, with a whole bunch of upvotes, creating a narrative. I’m not sure. But that is how I would guess, if I had to guess.
Edit2: Called it. Look at the default-sorted comments now.
It doesn’t particularly matter. It’s over at this point. But it’s interesting to look at one particular microcosm on one particular platform of one thing that made it happen, I think.
One thing that I suddenly realized is that some of those comments with that very-different-from-this consensus are on Beehaw, which while it still has representation on it from the socialists and anti-liberals, whatever you want to call it, has defederated from sh.itjust.works and lemmy.world because they were at the time too infested with troll accounts. And I used some of my magic powers to look at who’s been voting for *this* comment with all these universal upvotes…
I’m confused, is the implication that Beehaw users are upvoting the comments blaming the Drmocrats? How can they do that if they’re defederated?
Actually I didn’t really understand your entire comment…can you ELI5 or do I need to up my ADHD meds?
I’m saying that the comments under this post look manipulated, especially when compared with comments on Beehaw, which makes sense considering that beehaw excludes Lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works which is where a ton of troll accounts come from.
Thank you, this might be a sign that I do need to up my dosage 😭
Also, I agree with you.
Yeah. My initial presentation was unclear. Partly because it’s such a weird conspiratorial thing to believe that I kind of had to come at it sideways.
And I used some of my magic powers to look at who’s been voting for this comment with all these universal upvotes…
And lo, I was enlightened.
If you’re aware of someone botting votes, I’m certain the admins of all instances would like to know, why don’t you post the data?
largely the fault of the people who were holding out voting for the Democrats because they hadn’t done enough to fix everything up,
I don’t know how someone can blame voters for advancing their interests if their finances are in the red. and are holding their vote in protest of the democrats.
I don’t know how are the discussions on beehaw but over the rest of lemmy, it feels exactly the same as on reddit: well off Americans blaming the struggling other half for turning their backs on the Democrats, it isn’t Just Harris who didn’t deliver, it is the whole fucking party. Liberals won’t understand the struggle of people living paycheck to paycheck. and how they are not entitled to their vote if they let the neo-Liberal system fuck with the struggling class.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/
Like I said: Trump fucked it, Biden unfucked it starting in January 2021 and got it under control. And, because the media laps up a good narrative like no other, Biden got the blame for what Trump did, when the US recovered better from Covid inflation than pretty much every other country in the world.
If you’re struggling now, and “holding your vote in protest of the Democrats,” then I withdraw a little bit of my sympathy. You’re going to get it right up the ass very hard in the next few years, if you did that, and although it won’t be completely your fault you will have helped make it happen.
The economic struggle and inflation only fell on people under Biden’s presidency and vastly after Ukraine war. what people live under is what matters. not that a trump presidency will alleviate this. but you shouldn’t expect people to reelect the same team that choose to extend a war in Ukraine and send 100 billion to Ukraine while their own are struggling.
choose to extend a war in Ukraine and send 100 billion to Ukraine while their own are struggling.
a) they didn’t start that war,
b) out of all the stupid shit our federal government spends money on, why fixate on this one?
c) rich people and companies are under-taxed anyway, so it’s not like we’re hurting for potential revenue. We have more than enough money to fund Ukraine’s defense and take care of poor people.
what people live under is what matters
That much I agree with and have known since George W Bush won the popular vote in 2004 despite there being no WMDs in Iraq and all sorts of civilian casualties because gas stayed cheap
A haaaaaa
Hey, what do you think of Alexei Navalny?
Don’t care really! I don’t believe in heroism. He didn’t deserve to Die in a prison though.
My curiosity was just aroused because you blamed 8% inflation which hit every country worldwide and is related to how much companies want to charge individuals for private transactions, on US government spending on behalf of Ukraine, the total over all years of which added up to 1% of the federal budget for one year, and had nothing to do with either private individuals or companies. It’s a staggeringly weird leap to make. Unless you were, say, trying to find a reason why aid for Ukraine would be a foolish thing for governments to do, and trying to make the case that it was hurting the individuals in those countries using some sort of moon-logic.
Usually, the government spending money domestically on weapons or whatever, and then giving the product away somewhere so we have to make more of whatever it is right away, stimulates the economy. Even aside from those other weird aspects of your decision to say that, it’s also a backwards thing to say in terms of how government spending usually works.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is a measure of average wage growth right? I think it’s possible that there are big variations between geographic regions and industries and income, so for some people wage growth more than outpaced inflation but for a lot of others it didn’t.
Here’s the median, in inflation-adjusted dollars:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/
It bombed in 2022 and then went back up. It’ll be higher in 2024 than it ever was, and it’ll probably keep going up until anywhere from 0 to 2 years into Trump’s presidency, and then it’ll bomb again much harder as everything goes completely to shit. The normal cycle would be that it gets handed back over to a Democrat in 2028, he spends the first 2-3 years of his presidency fixing things from the previous Republican’s disaster as happened in 2009-2012 and in 2021-2022, and then during the next election everyone blames that 2-3 years on the Democrat and says the Republicans are better with money.
We’re about to go so far off the map that it seems unlikely for that cycle to happen this time, but that would be the normal cycle.
The economy is in an objectively better position than when the GOP had office. The fault does lie with the dems, but if the economy was a concern as 38% of people said, then they would have voted democrat. The fact is they went too far right, floundered on their support of a genocide and failed to speak bluntly on matters such as healthcare outside of abortion.
I think people say the economy when asked as a catch all when they dont know what to say.
The “economy” does not help people pay their bills. And the unit of measurement only says something about the whole. The fact that a small portion of the people actually profit from this better economy is the issue, the unit of measurement has no bearing on normal people.
And now, we will see what trade tarrifs will do, and gutting the administration and filling it with partisan players (loyalty > capability). And what gutting protection and health agencies will do.
Now that it’s done I personally am morbidly curious what Trump, Vance, Kennedy and Musk can do to America in the next term (and possibly beyond). I really wonder if this will be as dark as it can be… but the project 2025 ghouls are scary as fuck.
What is the over under on a national abortion ban in the US?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/
Trump fucked it, Biden unfucked it better than any other country in the world after Covid, and Biden got the blame.
As is tradition. Universally. It’s one of the few things in American politics that always happens in exactly the same way, with no real wiggle room depending on how you want to measure things or who you ask for the explanation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._economic_performance_by_presidential_party
Both rich people and working people do better under Democrats, and both rich people and working people do worse under Republicans. Always.
Exact same happened to Obama and the 2008 recession. Getting blamed for shit that happened before the election even took place. But Democrats refuse to play the blame game, people got to spout the lies about things being cheaper when Trump was in office unchallenged, and the Dems refused to promote solid solutions to even the most basic of core issues like antitrust, price controls, higher minimum wage, or even fucking climate change.
And now, with so many fewer people turning out to vote for Dems, even Trump’s lies about voter fraud will have been validated in the minds of the morons, who will attribute those low numbers to harsher rules stopping the fraud.
Every one and their grandma knows that what people mean by the economy is their own financial well being and not the ability of billionaires and capitalist class on racking up more billions. the rest is pedantry.
Again objectively better under biden
Democrats are completely out of touch. them expecting voters putting other issues on top of them making ends meets and food on the table
the economy is literally the strongest it’s been in a while, inflation rates are down, sure prices are still high but we’re literally at the tail end of the fucking tunnel here.
God i wish people would stop voting on schizoprehnia economics, it’s so stupid.
Meanwhile the far left was cutting their own throats by handing the election to the fascists, thanks a lot.
Jumping the gun a bit on that post mortum analysis? Put up the data or shut the fuck up you wanker. This is 100% an establishment fuck up, and you are as cognitively twisted as any MAGA freak.
Maybe it was the Dems buddying up to the incredibly unpopular bush admin. Or using serial SAer bill Clinton on the campaign. Or calling trump a fascist then moving to the right on almost every issue so really they were just offering fascism-lite.
But no, blame the lefties who had no significant impact on the election and have been constantly telling you that the campaign is doomed and that it should change course if the stakes are really as high as you say
I mean I would love to believe there are trns of millions of silent far left protest abstentions, but the fact of the matter is seventy million plus motherfuckers actively went for the overt fascists. Tens of millions more didn’t care enough to at least go third party. This was a turnout problem, not a protest vote problem.
Okay, and how do you get voters to turn out?
Well the argument being made here is that the campaign’s strategy actively depressed turnout.
So not doing normalizing the opposition and implementing the policies your voting base tends to oppose.
Or maybe it’s a fascist problem. It’s not just the US either. My latest thinking is that microplastics are eroding empathy in human brains. May sound crazy, but put it next to some of Kennedy’s ideas…
Yeah it is definitely a fascist problem.
The people don’t want any more of the status quo, and Trump offered something that wasn’t part of the status quo. The democrats could have offered a left-wing populist alternative but instead the democrats ran someone who was status quo. Someone who was “far left” would have been way more successful than Harris.
I don’t see why you would think that. Someone like Bernie was too radical for the American left to win a primary, no way he would be considered more appealing to America at large in the general.
It’s frustrating because Biden/Harris are too moderate to capture far left voters and too radical to wrestle the center from a populist like Trump. And it seems many disenfranchised voters are content to stay at home because better isn’t good enough. I’m not trying to absolve them of responsibility, but I genuinely think Democrats could make great strides if the left was as good at banding with each other as the right. Instead, the Democrats lost the popular vote for the first time in twenty years.
Even if that were true, the Dems lost because of their strategy which was based on not giving anything to the left.
It didn’t work for Hilary, what in the hell made you think it’d work for Harris?
Arrrg paywalls… at least post the full article in the comments!
deleted by creator
I was like uhh ok? And?
I figure that’s probably one of the better reactions because in hindsight who the fuck cares what that warpig thinks or who it endorses?
I think their intention was to appeal to older Republicans who remember the bush years with rose tinted glasses and don’t approve or the pivot that the GOP has done post-Obama.
Evidently they don’t make up a significant amount of red voters when compared to the frothing fascists who would eagerly re-elect a rapist.
Democrats keep extending the olive branch out of naïvety only to have it used to smack them across their stupid fucking faces.
I mean the over-65s (turned 40 before bush was elected) leaned heavily to Harris. It was the Hitler youth that was a shocker.
I went to check Reddit for the first time in a while. It is interesting to see the difference in reaction on Lemmy and Reddit. At least Lemmy is admitting that running a Republican campaign with Lez Cheney might not have been the best idea.
There is absolutely zero self reflection on Reddit. All blame lies on “racist imigrants”.
On Reddit Democrats had the perfect economic plan. Forget Kamala failing to secure the Unions. No teamsters endorsement. Forget the railroad strike shutdown. Forget massive inflation. The genocide is never even mentioned on Reddit. Kamala was 100% perfect in every single way.
No mention of the massive increase of young white voters for Trump either
Democrats will lose again in 2028. They vehemently refuse to learn from any of this. Instead of doing anything progressive they will say everyone is a racist and move right.
Every interest group in the Democratic party after a loss: “See? It’s because [Candidate] didn’t agree with ME enough!”
Maybe if they did your idea the loss would have been worse.
The number prove what they were saying is correct.
There are no numbers that say being less moderate would have won the election for Harris.
