Lets take a little break from politics and have us a real atheist conversation.
Personally, I’m open to the idea of the existence of supernatural phenomena, and I believe mainstream religions are actually complicated incomplete stories full of misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and half-truths.
Basically, I think that these stories are not as simple and straightforward as they seem to be to religious people. I feel like there is a lot more to them. Concluding that all these stories are just made up or came out of nowhere is kind of hard for me.
Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/718/
Basically, it’s not that hard to believe there are so many stories.
“Supernatural” is just unexplained, or misunderstood, natural phenomena.
I’ve spent years working in supposedly haunted buildings (as security.)
the guy who loves sharing his ghost story really didn’t appreciate being told that the “fleeting man” he saw apparitions of, were his own reflection (specifically in a corner window of a conference room, or in certain circumstances, in double-paned windows.)
Nor did he appreciate being told the ghost “walking” down the stairwell was really just the fire sprinkler standpipe clunking against the stairs as the building cooled off. (And the reason it happened around the same time every night was the building’s hvac being set to a lower temp to save energy.)
He most certainly didn’t enjoy being told that the doors closing in his face were caused by shorts in the magnetic door holders and that he really should have put that in his report (he was written up for not reporting a maintenance issue.)
He also got written up when we found out that he was leaving windows cracked in the space above him, but he wrote them off as ghosts screaming instead of the wind whistling through a slightly cracked window.
Our understanding of the universe is imperfect- and it probably always will be. The point of science is to improve that understanding using evidence and experimentation.
I’ll take science any day of the week.
I used to believe in all sorts of supernatural horseshit back in the 80s, we all did. But I had one friend that thought he had some sort of power because thermostats would kick in when he walked by.
“Uh, dude, there’s a bimetallic strip in there that’s on the very edge of tripping. A slight breeze will indeed kick it off.”
Nope. He apparently had some sort of “cold” aura.
I grew up in a house built in the 1920s and the first owner died in it. I spent years working in a recording studio that was in a Victorian farmhouse that was a sanatorium for sick children for a while, so I assume a huge number of them died there. And some in pain and trauma.
I never once saw or heard a ghost.
I saw and heard a lot of mice in the latter because the owner (who lived upstairs) didn’t understand basic concepts like “doing the dishes” or “putting away food,” but no ghosts.
That place was a shithole filled with crazy people. I could write a book except I’m still friends with a couple of them.
I don’t have anything to add to this conversation as I’m in agreement that the “supernatural” is simply how humans have historically described natural phenomena that is not yet understood.
Now… what I do find interesting is the shared art. I’ve seen similar styles, but not this piece. I looked it up and thought I would share because I find it to be pretty rad.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammarion_engraving
The Flammarion engraving is a wood engraving by an unknown artist. Its first documented appearance is in the book L’atmosphère : météorologie populaire (“The Atmosphere: Popular Meteorology”), published in 1888 by the French astronomer and writer Camille Flammarion.
The illustration depicts a man, dressed as a pilgrim in a long robe and carrying a walking stick, who has reached a point where the flat Earth meets the firmament. The pilgrim kneels down and passes his head, shoulders, right arm, and the top of the walking stick through an opening in the firmament, which is depicted as covered on the inside by the stars, Sun, and Moon. Behind the sky, the pilgrim finds a marvelous realm of circling clouds, fires and suns. One of the elements of the cosmic machinery resembles traditional pictorial representations of the “wheel in the middle of a wheel” described in the visions of the Hebrew prophet Ezekiel.
When I say supernatural, this is what I mean.
As the article says, “The supernatural is hypernymic to religion. Religions are standardized supernaturalist worldviews.” It also says “the supernatural is featured in folklore and religious contexts, but can also feature as an explanation in more secular contexts, as in the cases of superstitions or belief in the paranormal. The term is attributed to non-physical entities, such as angels, demons, gods and spirits.”
There may be “non-physical entities, such as angels, demons, gods and spirits,” but semantics clarifies how I would interpret their existence. They aren’t entities as described by religious beliefs. Instead, they would be “natural” and certainly “alien” to the human experience. If they violate natural laws, it’s only because humans lack the understanding to comprehend their nature.
There are absolutely “phenomena” beyond our current understanding. And you are correct when you say “mainstream religions are actually complicated incomplete stories full of misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and half-truths.” Science and history have shown this to be exactly the case.
With that said, I am apostate for a good reason. Religion doesn’t have the answers I zealously sought. It simply cannot, by its very nature and definition, do that. Science is the only way humans might honestly understand the world around them. While pragmatically I’m atheist, in terms of belief, I’m agnostic.
Alien non-physical entities may exist. Perhaps it’s probable… somewhere in the universe. However, most religious beliefs can be demystified and logically explained false. For everything else, such beliefs make good stories. Until science proves or disproves the belief though, it remains just that–belief in a story.
I’d give anything to practice “magic.” It’s probably why I read so much fantasy. I love science fiction because it envisions so many very different and greater things. Frankly, I could have been spared an incredible amount of pain if there truly was a “benevolent” god I could trust. It would be absolutely wild to know that, beyond my short frail human existence, there factually is an afterlife.
More important to me than anything is Truth. Believing in something for which there is no evidence does me more harm than good. Trusting in that which is known and natural keeps me steady and able to embrace the moment rather than laying false hopes in an improbable future.
Sure. There absolutely could be non-physical entities. I would call them “alien” because that better describes them than our religious terms. If they exist though, I’d wager they wouldn’t be friendly to humanity either by nature or intent. Angels and demons make better story devices than they do real life neighbors. We are at the top of our food chain. The last thing we need is to encounter something worse than we humans already are. If science ever proves that other beings exist, then we need to immediately determine next how to ensure human autonomy and survival amongst something that would more than likely be a threat.
Wait, is this a depiction of the flat earth dome cutting someone in half?
You look at it too literally, but yes, that’s what it looks like. It’s actually a symbolic painting supposed to represent the pursuit for mystical knowledge.
It’s a bad Victorian picture of their defective understanding of the medieval mystical world view.
There hasn’t been any proof in all of history that any supernatural phenomenon was real.
Until there is, my thoughts on it are: not real, never happened.There also hasn’t been any proof that supernatural phenomena doesn’t exist. It’s why I choose to keep an open mind about it. It’s a subject that suffers a lot of stigma in the science-centric world we live in, and thus few people talk about it.
There also hasn’t been any proof that supernatural phenomena doesn’t exist
You can’t prove a negative. Which is why in the scientific method, the onus is on the person making the claim to provide the proof, not the other way around. That’s why we rarely engage in debates with people who don’t grasp that concept, because for the most part they’re argument comes down to “You can’t prove it doesn’t exist, so therefore I’m right.”
It rightly suffers stigma because it does not follow the scientific method, but claims to have scientific merit.
Supernatural phenomena does not claim to have scientific merit. You are also assuming that science will eventually explain everything about everything. That it is the only existing truth. This is called scientism, and it oversteps science’s proper boundaries.
Um… no? Not what I said and not what I believe.
To quote professor Farnsworth: “The pursuit of knowledge is hopeless and eternal. HOORAY!”
We’re always going to have things we don’t know. The point is to build on the knowledge we do have and to slowly get better. What the belief in the supernatural does is actually the shortcut to “being able to explain everything about everything”, because you’re presupposing the answer without any proof or testing done. Sure, those things might be possible, but so might be waking up in the Pokemon universe tomorrow.
Until there’s proof, I have no reason to act like there is. It’s a fun game to think about, but it shouldn’t hold any weight in how you see the universe we actually live in.
Also, the natural universe is weird enough already. Have you heard of the fine structure constant? Basically, we found this one constant number within all of these different fundamental formulas for how the universe behaves, but it doesn’t have a unit associated. So, we know that it exists and can calculate it, but no one knows WHY it exists. We think it’s a constant, but it might have changed over time, so we’re trying to find ways to test that. We might never know, but those questions are far more interesting to me than “maybe aliens”.
Yes, there’s going to be stuff we don’t know about. That’s why I’m advocating for open-mindedness to supernatural phenomena. That’s my goal.
There also hasn’t been any proof that supernatural phenomena doesn’t exist.
You can play that game all day with anything. It’s not a valid argument.
Why is it not a valid argument?
That’s already been explained to you by others here.
I want to hear your opinion. That’s the point of this post. It’s how we have healthy debates.
I’ve already started my opinion.
All you’re doing is telling people no. That’s not a debate.You haven’t really said anything. You just said that my argument isn’t valid, refused to elaborate why, and when asked to do so, you said that others have told me why, when I’m getting completely different opinions from multiple people. Also, disagreeing with people is literally what makes a debate a debate. What do you want me to do? Agree with everyone even if I don’t? That’s not how a genuine conversation works.
Exactly. There’s no definitive proof that winged monkeys won’t fly out of my asshole five minutes from now, but I’m not making plans that assume they will.
Well, you sold me. I definitely believe in your five minute asshole monkeys!
I don’t.
But I want to.
what’s the difference between higher power and supernatural phenomena?
sounds more like agnosticism to me…
Supernatural phenomina could mean that psychics aren’t shysters, that some magicians are defying physics, or ghosts are real. Doesn’t necessarily have to mean there’s a god somewhere. I don’t believe in any of those things but that’s how I read this question.
Yes, that’s what I meant.
Higher power = some kind of god or creator. Supernatural phenomena = anything that transcends/defies the laws of nature.
SUPERnatural means “above” nature
TRANScend means to cross the threshold to a new plane
Those both imply higher powers in their name. You might not consider the higher power to be sentient or good or whatever, but you’re literally arguing for a higher power, just under a different name.
I felt that in the context of the post, OP used Supernatural to mean “weird shit”. Nit picking on the definition of the word is just being argumentative, and not participating in the spirit of the conversation.
Exactly. Thank you. Most people in the comments are just trying to sort of erase the word. But if I can’t call the phenomena supernatural, what do I call it? It most certainly needs a name.
…nit-picking is what science IS. There is no way to independently verify the claims if OP can’t define what they’re even testing for.
Oh, please. You know what I mean when I say supernatural. The extraordinary. Things that defy the laws of nature. Paranormal. Weird shit. You guys are complicating things for unknown reasons.
There’s a time and a place for science.
But a lot of the time, what they’re saying is “look at this photon, it transcends the law that everything has an electrical charge!” No, it doesn’t transcend anything: your understanding of natural law is defective. Most of the UFO silliness falls into that bucket: they draw stupid conclusions based on their fanciful interpretation of a few perceived data points, then think that half-assed reasoning is enough to invalidate some real science.
I’m a strict naturalist - I believe that supernatural phenomena do not exist. I do not believe in the unknown.
Why? Supernatural phenomena isn’t really generally unknown.
What do you mean? That people experience supernatural phenomena?
If they didn’t, they would it be a thing?
Ok. I don’t believe they do experience supernatural. I think people are gullible, only selectively critical, and are often influenced by their culture to believe in supernatural explanations. And some people are just frauds. I believe honest people get tricked by their culture to regard unknown as supernatural, and by accepting that explanation, never find the natural behind the unknown.
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I have experienced weird things and I think it is something that is an explainable natural phenomena that humans attribute to the supernatural in their ignorance.
Like the “ominous feeling” of a basement being stuff like radon or unshielded wiring, things that are explainable without the supernatural.
A feeling that something is watching you? Some people end up experiencing supernatural phenomena after having such feelings. Especially if it’s accompanied with a sense of dread.
Delusions and hallucinations are a thing. Ever feel your phone vibrating in your pocket when it actually wasn’t ? That’s a hallucination, nothing supernatural about it. Feelings aren’t a reliable way to assess reality, and relying on feelings to make decisions is a recipe for disaster.
Do you think that the current reality we experience as humans is true reality?
Sure. There’s no reason not to, considering the brain, which is a physical object. Everything we think and do is a product of the physical world.
Actually, no one knows. There isn’t any hard concrete evidence that proves that this current reality is absolute true reality.
Unless there’s evidence of an alternative reality, you might as well be talking about leprechauns and unicorns.
I think there may be some scientific explanation for a variety of things that are attributed to the supernatural; and not necessarily just mundane things like knocks and creaks in your house, paradolia causing images of faces in image noise and shit like that. For example, with how places that have unusual geomagnetic activity tend to also have higher than average ghost sightings, I think some people may just be extra sensitive to magnetic fields which causes them to hallucinate.
So many myths and monsters are basically caused by misunderstandings, not seeing something clearly enough to identify it, or even exaggerating a story that’s been passed down verbally over a long time. Not to mention things caused by mental illness in times before advanced medicine and psychology. Many alien abduction stories and succubus sightings are almost certainly the result of hallucinations induced by sleep paralysis.
Lets have a fun conversation.
What is a hallucination?
A phantom sense of something that isn’t actually there. Be it feeling a touch, seeing something, hearing something, smelling something, etc. As real as it may seem to the brain experiencing it, it’s entirely a product of that brain and can be caused by all sorts of things from illness and physical trauma to chemicals, lack of sleep, or even simply being deprived of stimulation.
So, a hallucination is not real, right? But how can we tell if we aren’t even sure if the current reality we’re currently experiencing is true reality?
I’m nit the person you asked, but is no “fun” if you intend to be educated by each of your interlocutors without even attempting to investigate anything yourself. It’s lazy and disrespectful, and reeks of sealioning.
Let me talk to people ffs.
I have a “theory” that in these places where there are higher than normal “ghost sightings” and “encounters” that the spaces between our universe (think of the string theory of the universes) and another are even closer than “normal”, and that these “sightings” and “encounters” are a part of that crossover, and we just don’t currently have a way to measure it or interact in a meaningful way.
I also don’t really understand string theory all that well, I mostly just have a half-baked idea of what it is and how it works, so be gentle, please!
I think the vast majority of people who are even aware of the term “string theory” only have a half-baked idea of what it is. You’re in good company!
I know that some physicists think that the force of gravity is inexplicably weak, and that gravity isn’t as powerful as it “should” be. There’s a theory out there (or maybe it’s part of a larger theory, I don’t remember) that what we perceive as gravity is just “leaking” from another dimension. That dovetails nicely with your own perspective.
I’m fully atheist, but I have seen ghosts in front of me, clear as day, while completely sober, during the daylight.
You probably need to check the mushrooms you were eating.
You are one of the reasons why people don’t report such things. You just went straight to ridiculing him without even knowing the context.
I have too, in company no less and we both saw the same thing. It’s disheartening to see such ready dismissal of what I saw by others though lol
If it can be oberved and explained then it isn’t supernatural. Therefore nothing can be supernatural.
A ton of real things would fit in with all the supernatural stereotypes if we didn’t already accept them due to science.
I disagree. You seem to be unfamiliar with the definition of supernatural. Supernatural is anything that transcends the laws of nature. Not things that can’t be observed or explained. Something that defies the laws of nature is not natural now, is it?
Just because we do not know all the laws dosen’t mean something dosen’t have an explanation. The universe is under no obligation to make sense.
But what do we call the phenomena then, if I can’t call it supernatural?
/shrug, call it what ever you want. Your reality is subjective.
Seconding custard_swallower. Strict naturalism. I see no reason to believe in any supernatural claim of any kind.
Relatively recently I had a new hypothesis for some of the feelings people attribute to hauntings; bad vibes. I know someone who smokes indoors in their home. Before I had purged supernatural beliefs of all kinds from my worldview I thought there was some kind of curse or haunting wrong with the place. No, it’s the ill effects of third-hand smoke.
Belief in non-theistic supernatural phenomena appears to be a crutch for theistic supernatural belief; it gives a convenient explanation for something so that you don’t exercise your rational faculties to find the real reason and then have the kind of experience that can contribute to unraveling god-beliefs.
Of course, there are rational explanations to things that people think are supernatural, but some things transcend rational explanations, and remain unexplained. This is where we may start to consider the supernatural.
I’ve yet to find any such thing and those that have been presented to me tend to be in the ‘we have insufficient information’ category for why it can’t be clearly determined what happened. People love to wedge the supernatural into those crevices in spite of still not being a good fit.
Paraphrasing I believe — Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
No nothing is “supernatural “. We may not yet know what we’re seeing or exactly what happened… we simply don’t understand it yet.
Yet is relevant point there IMHO. We will.
and not understanding how something functions isnt a reason to assign intent or awareness to the thing.
But there is also a possibility that what we don’t understand transcends the laws of nature. That’s what supernatural means. A possibility that our universe is also governed by supernatural forces, as much as it is governed by natural forces.
If something can “transcend” the laws of nature, then the ability to do that is part of the laws of nature, and thus it transcends nothing. We just didn’t know all of the rules.
If ghosts are real, then they aren’t breaking the rules of nature because clearly the rules of nature allow for ghosts, we just don’t understand how yet, but then ghosts are natural.
By definition, anything real is natural, and anything supernatural is not.
That’s just a weak reformulation of the “God of the gaps” fallacy.
Saying that I’m making a god of the gaps argument would also mean that you are making a science of the gaps argument.
Except, when you fill the gaps with science, you have evidence and proof. Not superstition and ancient myth.
But you’re still leading yourself into a fallacious argument. It’s not any better.
It’s only a fallacious argument if you don’t say “we can’t answer that yet” and maybe add, “but here are some theories…”
“I don’t know” does not mean “therefore the supernatural is real.”
The difference is that science is observable and testable, god is not. This key difference, changes it from being a fallacy.
So, in the god of the gaps fallacy it goes like this:
- GotG: Something unknown = GOD!
- Science: Something unknown = “We don’t know!”
- GotG: Ghosts = GOD!!
- Science: Ghosts = “We need a way to reliably test and confirm!”
Science isn’t anti-god either. It’s just pro-knowledge. Observable, testable, verifiable knowledge.
Science isn’t anti-god either. It’s just pro-knowledge. Observable, testable, verifiable knowledge.
This part. If ghosts are observable, testable, and verifiable, then we would have a way of measuring things. Maybe ghosts are 4th dimensional entities. It’s very possible they are real and it’s purely something we haven’t been able to measure thus far.
Science gets stuff wrong all the time. The point of science is to be adapting and learning. And part of that involves verifying credibility of a new source of information.
Unfortunately, almost all of the sources of “proof” of things like ghosts are heavily biased in favor of proving things over disproving, and there are a lot of people throwing clear scams into the mix. Science needs to go in with an open mind. “I want ghosts to be real, and the wind moved this door, therefore it was a ghost” is not valid proof of ghosts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WohbNt18wNs Things like this. A pastor that can walk on air, which is clearly fake. If the pastor believed he could walk on air, why would he fake it. This is not proof that people CAN’T walk on air, but it’s a great example of why when someone claims they can, you should figure out why lying about it benefits them (this guy clearly wants more people to tithe to his church).
GotG benefits from the default being “GOD!” for all things, because it leaves them in power. Science has no benefit from anything except the truth. Sure there will be liars in science as well and a lot of people will optimistically want to believe the lies if they sound nice, but looking at things like LK-99, it winds up disproven when it’s a lie. Capitalism and industry don’t care about your fake superconductor. That doesn’t benefit them, they only care about real superconductors.
But we still need the word “supernatural” to describe such things. Otherwise, what do we call the phenomena?
Fictional
Er um— no.
There is nothing that is “supernatural “
There is nothing that is proven and repeated not beholden to the laws of nature.
Yes it is possible, but there isn’t any proof of anything transcending nature. You’re making a “god of the gaps” argument. It is illogical to assume that god or anything supernatural keeps getting smaller and smaller so as to hide in those ever shrinking gaps.
But we need a name to describe such extraordinary events. If you erase it, what do we call such phenomena? There’s a reason why the word exists. Also, saying that I’m making a god of the gaps argument would also mean that you are making a science of the gaps argument, where you assume that science will always have an answer, and that it is the only truth. It’s why I believe that it’s best to sit on the fence on this topic, your mind being open to ideas of supernatural phenomena, as you still consider rational scientific explanations.
This “then why do we have a word for that” is such a a strange argument
We also have a word for elves, doesn’t mean they exist
It’s the same logic I see people applying to Korean, with arguments like “they have no word for depression, therefore they’re happier”, completely ignoring the fact that they have a bridge called “suicide bridge” (guess why)
If you think the word supernatural is so unneeded, you can petition for it to be taken out of dictionaries and Wikipedia.
Sorry but I’m going to call out what I see as some pretty blatant motte-and-bailey argumentation by the OP and their offense taken to people trying to nail down the definition of supernatural is illustrative.
They have their bailey, belief in things like the occult, ghosts, demons, etc, that are almost certainly bullshit. To the extent that they can be falsified, they have been. This is the typical definition of what people think when you say “supernatural” and people are right to answer “no” when asked if they believe in it.
But then you have OP falling back on their motte when this happens, taking a nebulous definition of supernatural and asking rhetorical philosophical questions about reality, perception, and the unknown. The fallacy is that these questions do nothing to strengthen or refute the original argument about the supernatural.
Nobody is here to argue that nothing is unknown and even unknowable but that doesn’t make the things that people typically call “supernatural” any less bullshit. Demons and ghosts are just not the kinds of things that are waiting around to surprise us. And shifting the conversation from your bailey to your motte to protect your feelings on the former is not a good way to have a friendly debate.
All that aside, if you are interested in expanding your understanding of the universe then I’d really encourage you to divert the effort you’re putting into the “supernatural” into learning about the actual natural universe instead. Our universe really is fantastic on its own. There’s plenty of interesting, wacky, and unknown things happening all around us that you can learn about without resorting to magic. If anything, magic is the boring answer imo.
They have their bailey, belief in things like the occult, ghosts, demons, etc, that are almost certainly bullshit. To the extent that they can be falsified, they have been. This is the typical definition of what people think when you say “supernatural” and people are right to answer “no” when asked if they believe in it.
You say that people are right to answer “no” when asked if they believe in this stuff. That is just not true at all. That’s because that as much as good evidence can be hard to come by for supernatural stuff, there is also no official evidence whatsoever that proves that such things do not exist. Therefore, the most accurate answer should really be “I don’t know”, because of the subject’s unfalsifiable nature, and how it’s outside scientific testing. You still have a right to say “yes”, or “no” though.
But then you have OP falling back on their motte when this happens, taking a nebulous definition of supernatural and asking philosophical questions about reality, perception, and the unknown. The fallacy is that these questions do nothing to strengthen or refute the original argument about the supernatural.
That “nebulous” definition of supernatural that I keep using IS the literal definition of the word. You even described it yourself how I described it on your second paragraph, first line. Yes, I have been “asking philosophical questions about reality, perception, and the unknown”. And why can’t I do that? My post is an open-ended question. This means that the conversation can go anywhere, provided that the context continues to match the topic of the post. What do you mean by “original argument about the supernatural”? Again, this post is meant to be an open-ended question where others contribute their thoughts on the supernatural, I share my opinions on their thoughts, and we agree, or disagree. There is no “original argument about the supernatural”.
Nobody is here to argue that nothing is unknown and even unknowable but that doesn’t make the things that people typically call “supernatural” any less bullshit. Demons and ghosts are just not the kinds of things that are waiting around to surprise us. And shifting the conversation from your bailey to your motte to protect your feelings on the former is not a good way to have a friendly debate.
Actually, people here have argued such, as supernatural phenomena is a mysterious topic. Nowhere have I declared that there are no BS claims in the supernatural world. However, saying that all supernatural claims are complete BS without evidence supporting it is a biased take. Some are debunked, and some aren’t, which is how we end up with unexplained claims that are beyond rational explanation. A scenario like this is the reason why we should stay open-minded about supernatural phenomena, instead of completely denouncing it.
I’ll tell you why I say the answer is no to whether or not the occult, demons, or ghosts exist. There’s a phenomenon in statistics where if you were to select a random element from an infinite set of equally probable elements, the probability that a specific element will be selected is 0%. Not close to 0, literally 0.
These kinds of supernatural phenomena that have no evidence belong to an infinite set of equally unlikely phenomena with no evidence. Their likelihood of being real is 0%. Only when phenomena has some tangible evidence explaining it can we elevate it to a finite set with a non-zero likelihood of being real.
If that’s your stance, it’s ok. We can agree to disagree. I still choose to sit on the fence.
…there is also no official evidence whatsoever that proves that such things do not exist
That statement right there sums up the problem.
No, you cannot prove that the supernatural does not exist. The same way you cannot prove that god doesn’t exist, or that there isn’t a teakettle in orbit around the sun between Venus and Mercury. The lack of evidence against their existence is not evidence for it. However, since there have been so many claims of supernatural phenomena, gods and near-sun teakettles, and none of them have been shown to be true, I feel confident in saying that they don’t exist.
Here are some interesting counterpoints though…
The James Randi prize has never been claimed. No person has been able to demonstrate the existence of supernatural phenomena in order to claim an easy 1 million dollars.
Everything that has ever been discovered has turned out to be not magic.
I do not currently believe in any supernatural anything, for the exact same reasons I do not believe in gods.
- There is no persuasive evidence of anything supernatural
- Many supernatural phenomena were discovered to have naturalistic explanations
- The only evidence provided for supernatural phenomena is anecdotal
It’s entirely possible for there to be supernatural stuff, but the time to believe it is when it is demonstrated.
One point that I don’t see raised a lot is that otherwise perfectly mentally healthy people can experience hallucinations. They may even find them comforting, and some even then do not believe the visions are real. I have a suspicion that a lot of ghost sightings, etc, might be such hallucinations. But I can’t demonstrate that, and I’m honestly not sure how we could, unless we can find a way to trigger such hallucinations on purpose.
