Similar vibes than Reddit api pricing
Similar vibes than Reddit api pricing
Reddit got the idea from Elon’s twitter API fees. This is Elon being consistent(ly terrible).
Reminds me of the Fall Out Boy song “Dead on Arrival”.
Or, one of the original punk bands, DOA
Or the old saying “Dead on Arrival”
I’m surprised devs didn’t see the writing on the wall after Twitter all but murdered its API
Wasn’t that still Dorsey twitter though?
I could swear it was too, but I double checked before the comment.
Elon closed the deal on Oct 28, 2022 according to Wikipedia, and the first API woes I remember was the killing of third-party clients, which happened in Jan 19, 2023
Fuck Elon. Fuck Tesla.
I was their target demographic and Elon made sure that I never even consider their trash. I went BMW instead.
That BMW iDrive looks good but if it’s all app and touchscreen based… Imma skip.
TBH though, all the damn nice EVs are touch screens or bubble crossovers.
Why the fuck do I want to drive a bubble. I want to drive an electric car. Take the Ford Mustang, put the electric parts in it, and don’t turn it into a crossover. Take the Toyota 86, put electric parts in it. Do not turn it into a cross over.
Idk take any fucking car that looks like a fun car and goddamn it, put electric parts in it, don’t add touchscreens, and don’t stick your lips on the wand of soap and blow into the frame making it a goddamn bubble crossover.
Because it’s not that easy. Batteries are big, people want 250+ miles on a charge and battery tech isn’t there for standard sedans and smaller.
I just went through this and ended up with the mach-e (which I’m very happy with) but it still weighs about as much as my minivan (almost 5000lbs).
All EVs are nearly 5000lbs. The xDrive i4 I mentioned is 5063lbs
But the interior DOES have buttons so it’s back on my like list.
There was something about the i4 I just didn’t like. I think it was how it felt kind of like an m3 to me. In the sense that if all you care about is going fast, then it’s a great car, but it’s not the luxury of the 5 or 7 series, which is what I think of when I think of BMW.
I’m too old for a car like that, and don’t drive enough to justify the i5 price, so I went economical (in comparison at least) with the mach-e. It’s fun to drive, has enough gitty-up-and-go for me, and it’s comfortable.
Though I got reeeeeeally close to saying fuck it and getting the i5.
I’m waiting for the price on used i5s to drop a bit before I trade my car in for one. Since they’re only a year old, they’re still super pricy. i4 is a bit small for me if I have people in the back.
The 530e is pretty perfect for me in the meantime. Only 20 mile range on full electric, but that works pretty perfectly for me since I can charge at home and at work. On longer trips I can still burn dinosaurs, but I only fill the tank up a few times per year. I think I’ve put gas in it 6 times this year, and that includes a couple ~3 hour trips.
I’ve thought about Tesla, but there’s so much I don’t like about them.
Ioniq 6.
never owned a BMW, or a Tesla for that matter, but I’ve heard they’re just as bad when it comes to being money hungry
A friend bought a new BMW. Everything is controlled with an app. There’s also an interface in the car itself, obviously, but the app has more functions.
Things like seat heating, air conditioner, enhanced cruise control and all the fancy things are only available if you subscribe to one of the three offerings.
I just glanced over the app, so i don’t remember the names, but it went like the usual: basic, premium, platinum.
Prices were in the range of 200, 400, 700 euros a fucking month.
Yeah choosing BMW is a strange choice against something like Tesla when they are doing the same sort of thing. I won’t criticize the “I’m rich so I bought an expensive car” thing, that can happen elsewhere, but the idea that BMW is the lesser of the evils isn’t really accurate.
I wish we were in a world where we could more easily avenge our terrible upbringing in this system moment after moment like Geralt, where if we’re to choose between the lesser of two evils, we’d rather not choose at all.
Are you saying that you can’t use the A/C without subscribing to their app?
I think they are very mistaken about the options requiring a subscription and their price. Most of the options you could get a subscription for also are available as a one time purchase… the same way they were in the past. Heating and air conditioning aren’t among those options, they come standard in every car.
BMW did drop the subscription for heated seats after backlash. That one was stupid. The other options I’m a little torn on. There are costs associated with developing the software used for most of the options like driving assistance. I have no problem paying for that development, and the subscription lets me try it for a month to see if it’s worth it. As long as there is the ability to outright buy the option instead of locking into a perpetual subscription I’m chill with it. I also hope that once unlocked, the option is still available when resold. This part I’m not so sure about, but mine seemed to maintain the options purchased by the original owner.
It’s not a super recent article, but a list of options and pricing is available at the bottom of this page: https://www.kbb.com/car-news/bmw-quietly-launches-in-car-subscriptions-in-u-s/
I only had the chance to peek and after reading your comment, it sounds very plausible that general heating is a basic function. I’m sure i saw the seat-heating, in the lowest price subscription though. It must have been before they dropped the subscription for it. The paid air conditioning included air purifing with hepa and carbon filters and some iirc Plasmacluster Ion technology.
I should have been a little more specific …
Even by not subscribing to the paid subscriptions he said he had to subscribe to the basic subscription, which enables the app.
It looked like they will also drop a random paid feature into the basic for a limited time, every few weeks another feature, so people get to test it. That’s what the ad in the app suggested.
I didn’t think about the one time purchase to be honest. I assume it to be featured in a submenu, to make it less prominent than the subscription, in order to get a bigger number of subscribers.
There is no such thing as a benevolent corporation. Don’t feed the fascists. Don’t give your money to Elon.
EDIT: Autocorrect derp
I mean, fuck Elon and Tesla but if you’re spending money on a car you’re giving it to a bastard one way or another. The CEOs of Ford, BMW, et. al. might not be making asses of themselves on the global stage, but I’m sure they’re still horrible. Even used cars run on gas 99% of the time.
There are levels of bad. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good (or in this case, only slightly better).
That is correct, but at least BMW knows how to make decent cars that won’t trap you in in an emergency.
BMW lobbies against non-car based infrastructure and car industry regulation here in Germany. Biggest shareholder is the Quandt family, who are descendant from literal Nazis, and now use part of their billions to fund the conservatives (at least they aren’t giving it to the far-right. Yet.)
So yeah, fuck Elon, but fuck BMW too.
Yeah fine me a car company that’s not like that. Living in the US it’s a necessity to have a car so just gonna nix that argument. I bought a Toyota to get ultimate reliability (yes Honda is basically equal) but I’m sure they both have done equally terrible shit. And when I’m not in grad school I want to go back to a BMW because they are great cars to drive. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism so just try to enjoy your life where you can.
On the one hand, sure. On the other hand, if you’re saying you bought from brand A, not B, specifically because the big boss of B is a shithead, I feel like it’s valid to point out the ways the big boss of A is shit too.
Since everyone is shit, I dunno, buy used, I guess.
“Theres no ethical consumption under capitalism, so what do you expect me to drive a used car like a PEASANT? If i cant consume 100% ethically ill just consume however i want, and i want a fancy german treat car so just shut up okay”
It’s good information and something I will take into account for next time.
BMW does have shady monetization tactics with their newer car, but Subaru shred almost every other car brands to dust
Are Subaru cars still loud AF? I had a 2002 Impreza, and a 2012 and both had lots of road noise with everything in the car popping or cracking with every bump.
Same
Did u have to unlearn how to use an indicator?
Isnt that a mandatory class before they let u buy one?
You know I haven’t been to a dealership yet to find out.
This is why Elonia is asking trump to impose tariffs on Canada and Mexico. Other car manufacturers started biting into Tesla market share this year.
He want to add tarrifs and he is also asking Trump to remove government subsidies on new EV purchases, raising the barrier to entry in the US for EVs
There’s no way he’s asking for that. If you can find a source for that claim I’d love to see it. But it’s about the dumbest thing musk could do.
Wow… Well I maintain that is about the dumbest thing he could do, but I apologize for doubting you.
Poor Queen Elonia.
I went Audi but to be completely honest Hyundai and Kia make the best EVs.
I needed a single payment lease and BMW does those with zero hassle.
I just got the Ford Mach-e last weekend and I’m super happy with it.
Yeah, I like the Mach-e a lot too. I think it maxes out at 150 kW of charging speed, which is the same as my Audi. But the Hyundai does 240 kW and that’s super speedy!
How is it driving without turn signals? Granted, given they put them as buttons on the friggin steering wheel in the new Teslas, maybe not much different?
I am sad to say that the old joke is becoming obsolete. These new cars are smart. If you try to change lanes without a turn signal, the car beeps loudly to tell you that you have drifted. Our company also has a Sprinter van that will actually pull you back into your lane. Sad times.
Turn signals aren’t for you, they’re for other drivers. I can’t hear the other car yelling at their driver, I just see them decide to cut into my lane with no warning or signal.
rent seeking strikes back
API pricing is such a shitty obnoxious dogshit practice that is now of course becoming standard because of course it is. internet barely costs money come the fuck on make a quality product
It used to be a respected standard for developers and hosts to be somewhat open and friendly to 3rd party devs, because ultimately they’re customers and they’re helping recruit and retain customers, they should be treated with respect. just because it’s innovative and disruptive to invent the machine gun doesn’t mean it’s good
just because it’s innovative and disruptive to invent the machine gun doesn’t mean it’s good
That’s a great Maxim.
I didn’t think there would be a pun in there but, man, you found it! 👍
Well, I am a Prodigy at that sort of thing!
I have the slightest bit of sympathy. So many companies got their shit scraped and fed into AI models. They lost out. They’re afraid it will happen again.
They didn’t lose anything, that’s our data.
I mean, I get your point, that’s why I said “slightest”. I’m basically just saying I understand their perspective.
The internet (ie bandwidth) is cheap, but running servers, providing documentation and tech support all costs a decent amount of money.
However, treating an API as a profit center is a joke. These are literally companies developing software that makes the experience of owning a Tesla better. Making things unaffordable for those companies is putting short term profits over long term success of your product
But 90k is nothing to Tesla, it’s just a paywall to keep the third party devs put while being able to claim to be open
while being able to claim to be open
Marketing is happy while dafdy gets to squeeze
Anyway, look at their actions, not their propaganda
I hate subscription services. And I hate money-grubbing corps. Especially when they try to profit off of your own data.
That said, this is not that as infeasible as it sounds. The dev for Tessie reportedly has 400k users. That’s roughly $12.50/month per user. Modestly speaking, if the dev charged their users $13/mo, he’d profit $2.4 million per year. For $15/mo, he would profit $12 million per year.
That’s probably what Tesla is hoping their devs would do. And I’m sure a lot of Tesla owners could afford the fee.
well that’s some solid bootlicking lol
how much does it cost tesla to provide API access? or we don’t discuss their costs structure and profit margin? we only do that for the guy doing the actual work lol
Not sure which side of the argument you’re taking. But, to answer your questions…
how much does it cost tesla to provide API access?
Not as much as they would want you to believe. Most APIs are written once, and only updated if a major change in the backend happens. The majority of any operating costs would go into cloud services, if the telemetry from the car is sent to Tesla first. I don’t own a Tesla, so I don’t know for sure. I would imagine it’s, because that would allow Tesla better metrics on app usage.
or we don’t discuss their costs structure and profit margin?
Whose? Tesla or the app developers? I’m not against a business making a profit. It’s kind of the point. They provide some sort of service, and as a customer we pay some sort of fee. The problem as I see it, some companies (like Twitter, Reddit, and Tesla for example) are not balancing the age-old “supply and demand” model of economics. Of course that’s my opinion.
we only do that for the guy doing the actual work
Huh? Please explain.
lol
I don’t get it. Why do people end their otherwise non-funny statements with “lol”?
Tesla tubby is price gouging.
You came. Explaining how this price is fine since the app dev can make some money based on some basic math while not doing the same for telsa tubby.
Why this bias? How much money is telsa making per head, what is their cost structure? Should you have discussed this if we gonna justify this price gouging trick?
“Lol” here is sarcasm btw
Ps. Since they are data mining you already, could at least fucking provide api access for free which was the model pre covid mostly.
Now these parasites are data mining you and want you to pay for it 🤡
At least people are taking notice but I doubt this corpo trash will revert unless end user starts punish their profits.
You’re ignoring transaction costs.
Also $15/month is batshit insane.
Yes, I didn’t account for the transaction fees. But I believe my point still stands. If people find enough value in it, they’d probably pay for it; and that’s why Tesla is charging what they are.
I do agree with you about it being batshit crazy. If it were me, I sure as hell wouldn’t want to pay $15/mo for that. But I try to be a cheapskate where I can.
value in it, they’d probably pay for it; and that’s why Tesla is charging what they are.
Tesla is charging what they’re charging to eliminate competition, but still say they’re an open platform for anyone.
I would imagine most of those 400k users wouldn’t pay that much either.
We can probably look at the reddit paid API change as a real world approximation of free to paid conversions versus users just dropping usage. Not reddit usage overall, but a third party app that stayed and needed to start charging users because of the paid API. Not sure if there are any apps that stuck around and released that sort of information to reference.
Did any stick around? I thought they all folded.
Relay for Reddit (Android) is still going it seems.
RedReader is still going, and is still free. I’ve been using it since essentially its first release over a decade ago. I was the first to suggest the dev accept donations, around 4 years ago, as it’s a one-man job and it used to get regular updates. And the dev has stated he wants to add lemmy functionality alongside the existing reddit code, so users can switch between the two like an account switch, and maintain the UI they are fond of.
(I’m using Thunder currently while I want for RR lemmy support, but obviously I quite like the app, have recommended it to many)
You’ve accounted only for the API pricing. They already charge 7-20 USD per month. So their prices are going to jump to 19.50-32.50 USD a month.
That’s not feasible.
Selling literal shit at a restaurant also isn’t unfeasible if the customer doesn’t care about eating shit. But nobody is going to eat shit and nobody (normal) is going to pay $10+ a month to get mostly gimmick features. At a glance there’s barely anything useful in the API.
And then there’s 20 apps at $15/month each which collectively costs like $2 to run
Per user costs for a website is on the number of pennies a month and most of that is for electricity.
I can plug in a $750 second-hand server with a xeon processor, 40 TB of storage and 128gb of ram and easily serve all of the needs of several thousand users on essentially any website type for $1.50 a day.
Sure, if you throw in video and a lot of bandwidth then the number would go up, but for pictures and text and website interaction on the par of bluesky or twitter or mbin sans hosted video it would work very well.
If I reached the point where I needed to expand for the raw processing I can just throw another $1,000 and $45/month in electricity at it and double how much I can handle.
Computers are stupid cheap. Internet services are stupid cheap. Asking for more than a dollar a person per month for anything that doesn’t have licensing fees on it (like tv/movies) or very high bandwidth usage (like YouTube) is a greedy rip off.
That being said, at those prices I would not make anything for running the service, and that also would not cover additional development costs for any new features that needed to be added, but even so, unless your goal is to disenfranchise users you should not charge more than a buck a month or hell, $10 a year per person for all of their access to your service.
There goes TeslaFi… fuck. I use that all the time to see my global map and keep track of my stats (like power usage on long drives), and auto enabling of certain features at certain times, like heat/ac after work.
These changes only affect the Fleet API. TeslaFi is fine for now.
Just got an email that TeslaFi uses the Fleet API, so this definitely affects them.
Tesla can eat penis.
Penises should be loved.
A bag of.
A whole bag?
Another reminder to developers to not bother with public APIs, just screen-scrape or reverse-engineer the official app private API.
Really the lesson is, don’t run a business that 100% depends on another company.
This. It’s a recipe for disaster. I think enough (tech-related) companies have shown now, that they first want to lock you in, and then if they got you, want to bleed you out…
Then you’re at risk of getting sued for cracking the encryption or the API breaking constantly
The real reminder is don’t integrate with devices which you can’t trust
Yeah guys. Downvote me. This is literally part of my day job.
In our industry we call not using an official API a dumpster fire API. Because more than once it has completely broken eventually, and there are a few manufacturers warned will break in the upcoming future
Its Tesla; y’all should be dumping that shit anyway.
What’s the data? The article says the app was fleet management? So location and remote opening doors or something?
You can do basically everything you can do from teslas own app, but automated and even a little more. For example I use it to automatically control charging power to match the surplus of my solar panels, that keeps my grid-use for my car to 0kWh for roughly 5 months of the year. And I can set the charging power lower than I can in the Tesla app (app is 5A minimum, API goes to 0A), which is convenient for the solar charging.
And of course you can pull battery data, odometer etc. with it as well.
I use an app called Tessie. It’s $5 a month for the rest of my life but i do like it . Keeps track of battery usage, trips, and links to Alexa.
Why Alexa?
Other than that, a $1 notepad and a pencil will do usage tracking just fine for years. You can’t take a trip unless you’re already sitting in the car where you can see and write down the info.
I’ve decided that we were just fine without the internet, please send your comment to me via written correspondence, since you have your notepad ready anyway.
The internet allows us to communicate quickly over distances we couldn’t otherwise without a long time between messages. What does this app do that I can’t do cheaper and easier with pencil and paper?
I’m not opposed to technology, but I’m not paying for it if there’s no benefit.
But it does it both easier and better than pen/paper because it does it automatically without them needing to even think about it. And it’s already available electronically so they can graph it and run statistics on their usage and trips…you know, actually use the data for something purposeful.
With pen/paper they just have a sheet they can’t do anything with. They now have to manually enter all this data to use it for anything, which is a lot on unnecessary manual effort.
Ok.
On my phone, I can use Google sheets (or excel or whatever) and get all the benefits, except for the automatic recording. For $5/mo in perpetuity?
I’m not anti app. I don’t understand why someone would pay this much for this function.
If you want all the metrics that it logs automatically, you’re going to be spending 20min every time you drive anywhere logging everything manually. And then you’re still not getting the continuous logging during drives. Plus you still need to do all the data processing yourself on top of that.
I get why some people pay for these things.
Gotcha - I guess I’m still not following though. Twitter and Reddit upped API fees because the data could be used to train LLMs.
Obviously if you had access to everyone’s driving/Tesla data - that’d be valuable - but I am assuming the API data is only for the owners using these the apps like you mentioned.
Is the data available across all users or are they prepping to release some kind of anonymized user data?
I can’t eee how blocking API use helps train LLMs.
Even if the users has a 3rd party app, it’s still making the API calls, so whatever data is already on the server side.
I think you might be misinterpreting me.
Most of these apps run via the app providers servers. So while each subscriber provides an apikey that only gets data on their car(s), the app provider can save every single api response and whatever they want with it.
Imagine trying to sell cars and then pulling some shit like this
Hehehe, we all know how that’s like. I’m sure this income will truly be used to improve their services and support robust and reliable API infrastructure.
There’s no laws against profiteering?
Tesla is an American company, in Texas, at that.
It wouldn’t matter if there were.
