I am having such a problem with this right now. Everyone says, “apply for this, who cares if you don’t fit the qualifications?” And I’m like, “they probably care.” I just have a hard time believing some company is going to look at my resume when I don’t fit the criteria and then hire me. I am going way out of my safety zone on that right now, but I’m still not convinced.
yeah but what if you’re wrong? it’s not like it would hurt to apply anyways
Like I said, everyone basically says that. But it’s not that easy in terms of having the mental fortitude.
in what way? I’m not sure I understand
I don’t know how to explain it. I have to be in that place psychologically?
so it’s got to be convenient for you
I sincerely hope you don’t work in the mental health field.
yeah me too
That’s because you are not considering that the person who wrote that is a human.
I’ve written many postings. They are always a best guess. When I write mine, I try to be cautious about this and keep two separate sections and put required vs nice to have in two groups, but the place I currently work has a different template and that doesn’t fit, so I have to fill in words that I hope convey the meaning I want to the applicant.
In other words, I have a picture in my head of the rough skillet I think is appropriate.
You submit your resume. If it’s missing something critical (this is a software job and you’ve never touched software) that’s an easy drop and a waste of everyone’s time. But I assume you don’t mean this. I assume you mean something more like “I’m looking for someone with experience with oscilloscopes, multimeters, data acquisition, and function generators” and then you say “oh well I’ve never used a scope just the rest so I shouldn’t apply”. In terms of what I wrote, the behavior is logical. But I am a human, what I wrote was trying to give examples of the skill I want, not saying “we won’t spend half a day to train you on scopes”.
You apply so that you can present a picture of your life that you think fulfills the need I am looking for. You write your resume to make that match as clear as it can be. Sometimes we both miss the mark, and I have to go revise the job posting to make what I want clearer. Sometimes you miss the mark and while you have enough skill to do the job you couldn’t figure out how to present it. But all we are both doing is trying to see if you have the underlying hard to capture, hard to document, hard to describe skills I actually want you to have, filtered through the rigidity of the hr org.
None of this is as hard or complex or weird or, shockingly to me, malicious, as people here make it out to be.
Most recruiters have no idea what they are recruiting for. It’s like a game of telephone, by the time the job description reaches you, it has gone through so much dressing and corparatification it either describes a whole IT deparment or nothing specific at all.
Getting hired needs an entirely different set of skill than whatever job you will do. Well except maybe if it’s marketing, because the whole process seems like a song and dance where you need to sell yourself.
a friend once got me a job interview with his company. he listened into the interview, and i could hear him audibly gasp when the interviewer asked, “why do you want to work for us?”. I replied plainly, “To make a living so that I may pursue my real goals.” I didn’t get the job…
I see what you mean, but you have to read in between the lines a little bit. When they ask that question, they want to know why you’d rather work for them than anyone else hiring in that space.
Your answer makes it sound like you have zero interest in the company. I’m sure that you’d rather work for them than a myriad of other places if you actually applied. Think of why that is and focus on the positives. It’s not lying unless you literally had zero reason to work there as opposed to anywhere else.
Oh? I am not supposed to take a question at face value? I need some form of, wink wink, unspoken knowledge of human interaction that was not specified in the job offer? jfc
Yeah they don’t specify every parameter of human interaction in writing before you have a meeting. I’m not saying that it’s easy, but it’s just one of the challenges of dealing with people. Best of luck with future interviews though. The whole way we hire people in the corporate world has this crazy song and dance to it, but IMO it’s better to learn it a bit. Try not to let it influence your style so much that you’re not telling the company about yourself at all, but learning what kinds of answers the company is looking for can make it much easier to know what the heck to talk about when asked these weird questions.
You’re supposed to lie. Because everyone who is not a true believer in the cause - of the product, the company, the industry, the economy, capitalism, whatever it may be, is also lying. Because the whole system depends on everyone going along with it, otherwise it all falls apart. That you have to slave away at your shitty job with shitty managers so that one day you can become the manager and be shitty because it happened to you, all in service of the exploitation of natural resources and people and society to make line go up and make the people who managed to step on the most amount people on their way to the top that much richer.
Hit them back with “why do you want to hire me?”
Or even better: “why should I pick your offer?”
One trick is to have the mindset that you are in high demand
“Well, I enjoy doing my job anywhere but I’d prefer to do it somewhere that I want to be. I’ve checked out this company and didn’t see any red flags, but later on when you ask me if I have any questions, I’ll be asking about what it’s like to work here and if there are any unique challenges that come with working here”
I’m not technically NT but I have ADHD and I don’t have problems picking up this sort of neurotypical social cues.
When I interview people myself, I’m extra wary of catering to ND people, and for questions like this, I phrase them very carefully to mean what I want to ask:
“Why do you want to work for us? I’m sure there were other jobs out there that would result in a salary, but what made you apply for this one specifically?”
I make clear in the conversation that I want to know their motivation, their alignment to the specific role, and not the fact that they need money to live. I already know that! So I tailor the questions to give me exactly what I need even if the person is, say, autistic and takes things in the most literal way.
This post has, however, made me realise that in the job posting I have open right now, I’m going to add a note in the vein of “this is a wishlist of all the things the ideal candidate would have, but we acknowledge nobody is ever a 100% perfect match - feel free to apply even if you only meet some of the criteria as you might be more qualified than most applicants”.
I have always appreciated the listings that divide the list between the “must haves,” even soft ones (e.g. 4yr degree, knowledge of X tool, Y years of experience, solid communication skills), and “our ideal candidate will have most of the following” (e.g. Y+3 years of experience, prior role in management, knowledge of Z regulation).
The 4 year degree one is still never a must have. The only things that are true must haves are certifications for federally regulated jobs, like requiring a PE.
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There are things they actually care about enough to throw out your resume on pre-screen though. That’s de facto required for that particular job.
the hiring managers, senior executives, and especially the owners-- don’t give half a flying fuck about the
worker dronesemployeesas such, you’re only hurting yourself if you’re not telling them what they want to hear out of “principle.” fuck that. “principle” won’t stop them from tossing you to the winds the instant you become any sort of liability, e.g., prolonged sickness, otj injury, pregnant, etc
Half of the requirements listed aren’t even actual requirements; they’re just listing their tech stack. For example, if I see NodeJS, I know I’ll be deploying web apps, not coding them. I don’t even read the requirements most of the time. If the title matches and there’s no security clearance required, I’m applying.
I swear my company has one list of requirements for all jobs. Every time I am part of the hiring process I have to correct it
I dont know why they do it and I dont care to find out. I just know I apply even if I dont match the complete criteria. If I tick off 60-70% of what they want, I’ll apply. We are people, not machines. If something doesnt match but is close to it, we try and make it work. This is how the real world works. There are multiple factors at play and they can work in your favour.
I got my first job which required a college degree and some experience. I had personal (non-professional) experience and no degree. Showed an interest in the work they did, told them I work on my own things from time to time and got hired. What probably worked in my favor was a lack of other applicants showing the same degree of interest. I even told them I’d graduate in a year and we made it a requirement. Never got my degree and worked there for 7 years. No lying, some luck and showing an interest. Same strategy worked two more times (out of two), 1st interview and “wanna come work for us?”. Its easier the second time since experience is built up already. And im not some extroverted silver tongued devil or anything. The right interviewer at the right time.
Before I graduated I was encouraged to apply for a job that required a four year degree.
Don’t worry about it - we know you, they said.
When I submitted my application online it was automatically rejected because the application program correctly flagged that I didn’t meet the requirement of having a four year degree.
This is when you call them directly and tell them that. They can override the automation.
and if they won’t/can’t, then there’s an easy answer as to whether it’s worth working there at all
So, what do you do? The problem is it’s also difficult from the hiring side. Every opening has dozens to hundreds of applicants, most of whom are not qualified. No one can keep up with that, and recruiters/hr are horrible at it. Automation sucks, but it’s the quickest, easiest, fairest way to identify a smaller group that you hope are the ones who are qualified
We can put someone like an intern at the top of the pile because we know them, officially.
Sounds like you need to rotate your technical staff into the recruiting process.
Do they spend any time speaking with recruitment/hr?
Of course we all give feedback to recruiters, and typically ask for a new pile with the adjusted criteria. There’s even been times when we asked for everything, no filters, but we can’t afford to have technical people tied up going through piles of resumes
I do believe it’s tougher than it looks. Recruiters need to understand the field to know what to look for, and understand enough about what the company is looking for but they just don’t.
Earlier in my career it seemed like there were specialist recruiters who could do that: find the right people to place with the right company. However now it seems to have degenerated into salesmanship and quantity over quality. Or I don’t know if I’m just earlier in the process now, helping to identify who is worth interviewing, rather than just being another interviewer
Its systems like that forced me to get an expensive qualification that I don’t need simply so humans will actually see my resume. I don’t need the qualification, I have industry experience going back over a decade but because I don’t have a magical qualification, that is recognized by the entire industry as being utterly useless, that didn’t even exist when I started in the industry I had to fork out £600.
But how do they know you don’t need the qualification? I’m sure the people who know you could say, but what makes you qualified to a stranger?
It’s the same problem as standardized testing for school. Everyone seems u to understand it’s a bad idea except that you need something
Well my experience right otherwise I wouldn’t have had such a long career in the industry if I didn’t know what I was doing.
The problem is that the job of hiring has been turned over to people that don’t understand the job, so me an industry veteran and somebody first out of high school are treated exactly the same because we both have the same qualification.
I have a stable job that I like.
Sometimes I think I should go to interviews just to make recruiters feel insecure, “your business is not up to my expectations” “what do you mean you don’t provide flexible remote working?” “Your paycheck is just too small for me, sorry”.
I would get a laugh of of it and probably would help some fella by lowering this fuckers ego.
Your motives are horrible. Hiring managers in any org larger than a few hundred people have very little control over anything you mentioned. So you’re just taking time away from other applicants and time away from the needs of the people who already work at a place in order to satisfy your pettiness.
If you actually did this rather than just wanting to, you would be the bad guy in the situation.
I do this all the time. Keeps my interview skills sharp. Plus you never know when somewhere will wind up making you an insane offer.
How do you do something like this when most interviews happen during work hours?
It’s a lot easier if you have an office job, even easier if you’re full time remote. My experience has been the first round is over the phone, in which case before the pandemic I used to just go find an empty meeting room or go out to my car to take the call. For in person interviews, I’ll “have an appointment” and take a half day.
I took a job as a medical assistant. I was not certified. It was during COVID, and the manager was woefully understaffed. I had zero experience or training. They still hired me, because in her words “we can teach you everything you need to know, and your resume demonstrated you were a good learner so that’s all that matters.” (I had taught myself Chinese and coding, and put that on the resume).
I worked my butt off, and after two years when I had to leave to go back to school they offered me a massive raise, more training to get me a promotion as an actual technician to start making 80k/year, and they even said when I finished grad school I could be taken on as a partner and own the business (it was a small clinic). They wanted to do anything to get me to stay.
All these companies these days care too much about certs. They don’t know how to hire. They should look for resume’s that demonstrate learning, initiative, responsibility, and commitment. Because at the end of the day: almost anyone can learn any job that isn’t a PhD-level.
Like, having managers be required to have a college degree is moronic.
Unfortunately this did not pan out for me at all when I tried to move out of IT support. Now I make fries and sandwiches (I don’t even make them, I just put the toppings on). If possible I’ll probably do this til I die, not cuz I love it, but because I never want to go through with the job application process ever again.
You have to go out and get a bullshit CompTIA certificate, otherwise no one will talk to you anymore.
That’s entirely dependent on experience. Low to no experience? Get certs. In today’s age of AI powered resume screens, even with experience if what you’re pursuing is a position lower on the totem poll then you will still need them to get through the AI. Probably want a higher-value cert than CompTIA if you wanna work in IT but don’t want to stay trapped in the help desk (I’m talking a networking cert, a cloud cert, ITIL, etc). The most common career path is through the help desk but one doesn’t need to stay there.
Once one gets a decent amount of experience certs don’t really matter. In fact, I climbed up the early rungs of the IT ladder by selling my experience with stuff in my home lab and selling my ability to learn. I don’t have a single cert and never have. I misrepresented nothing about myself, but I did need to eat some below-market-pay jobs at first to rack up real experience to sell. Nobody really cares about the cert, it’s a knowledge industry and what matters is what you know and what you’ve done.
I’m not sure where you’re looking for jobs but all of them require the certification even if you have experience. If you don’t have the certification they’re not even going to look at your resume to find out that you have experience, that’s the problem with AI screening, logical thought doesn’t get a look in.
LinkedIn and Indeed mostly, though I do check my resume against the listing using stuff like jobscan.co to play the stupid match-the-keywords game to rank myself as high as possible. The response rate sucks but I do get responses, and I think shitty response rates for applications via job boards is kinda common in general. In my area (both geographically and career-wise I suppose) there are also plenty of recruiters looking for people to get in the door, which gets you past the AI gatekeeper. Though recruiter activity has slowed down in the past year and it’s not a time of plenty anymore they’re still around.
As with anything YMMV. So many variables, and surely some luck has played a part in my experience.
I too am VERY special.
Edit: But I AM DAMMIT!
What did he mean by this comment
What could he possibly have meant
Why would you assume “he” as a default pronoun?
A woman wouldn’t post something so dumb
And yet you have no idea what the comment meant, and so how could you know it’s “dumb”?
That seems pretty… dumb, TBH.
That’s also sexism, even if true
It’s because they’re actually lying about the criteria, its more like a wish list than actual requirements. In the interview just say oh I only know a little about criteria x but I’m keen to learn or whatever
Also if you lie on the application, aren’t they able to use that as an easy out to fire/lay you off without needing anything further?
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If you actually lie, sure. But since you seem not to have applied for a job before: Typically you provide a resume. Your resume is supposed to be a true representation of your career focusing on what they say they want but without lying. Then they compare their wish list against what you have and see if the match is close enough then they talk to you. There is no “lying on the application” unless you lie on your resume.
And if you lie on your resume in a provable way (ie not “I said I knew this tool but really I just watched someone use it once” but more “I worked at this company and decided voluntarily to leave when in fact they fired me”) yes it could be used to get you out, but that’s well into stupid territory.
Most every job I have applied to in the last 10 years tries to auto import data from my resume into their preconfigured forms. Then sites like monster/indeed/Glassdoor etc usually have check boxes signifying if you have or have not possessed certain skills and if you do not have them checked it flags your application and you have to tell it to send them on anyways. 7+ years with such and such, for instance. It’s always a pain
As an autistic person I relate to this so hard it isn’t funny.
As a non-autistic person, it’s also incredibly annoying. Job hunting has always been a really stupid system with lots of really stupid rules of thumbs.
I don’t consider myself neurodivergent but I do consider this issue one of the greatest barriers with my finding employment. I was raised to despise lying, and enough bad experiences have made me consider ‘massaging the truth’ to be the exact same thing.
It’s not lying as much as it’s advertising. If they’re asking about your greatest weakness, tell them. Just don’t neglect to mention how you mitigate that weakness too, and are improving. Don’t let your answer end on “I’m a disorganized mess”, end it on “so in the last year, I’ve started building and using checklists and it’s been really effective”.
In the same way, be up front if they ask about the criteria you don’t meet. But consider your entire answer, again, you can say something like “I actually haven’t worked in that language before, but I’ve done lots of work in Python and Java, so I’m confident I can pick it up quickly as needed”. If they don’t ask, then it probably wasn’t really that important of a criteria to them, so you shouldn’t waste your interview time talking about it either.
Don’t volunteer all your worst traits, you only have an hour, so focus on describing your strengths as often as you can. Nobody expects to completely understand you as a person in one hour, they’re specifically asking you to come in and advertise yourself. Instead, read between the lines in the listing (I.E. Things mentioned in the job description or title are likely more important than something in a single bullet point. Look for repetition, or how much they talk about each requirement.). Figure out what the “customer” wants that you’re good at, and ensure you emphasize it, repeatedly. Define clear takeaways and make sure they know what you’re offering, and will actually remember it too.
And practice your answers to many questions. Come up with your best anecdotes for “a time you resolved a conflict with a coworker” and all that nonsense in advance, so that you can confidently segue into those stories that best emphasize your takeaways when asked. Do some research on the company to come up with a good answer to questions like “why do you want to work here?”. The answer doesn’t have to be your top priority, which is obviously “a paycheque”, but just append an unsaid “instead of somewhere else” and answer honestly, because people are good at detecting insincerity. You likely haven’t applied to every company on earth, so tell them why you chose them.
Lastly, like an advertiser, don’t be afraid to segue from other questions into your prepared answers. “Yeah, I’ve always loved X, that’s why I wanted to work here actually, I’d heard a bit about how you were getting involved with X, but with this interesting twist, and thought that sounded like something I’d really enjoy working on”. The interview questions are designed to get you talking about yourself, it’s not a survey where the strict questions are all that matter, and you can simply joke about it if the question comes up later.
A lot of this is tied into rhetoric. Rhetoric is a skill. You don’t need to lie. You need to tell the truth good.
saving this for future reference. I’ve told this to many of friends over the years, but you’ve laid it out more beautifully than I ever did
Why yes, I do thrive under pressure. It’s why I use a weighted blanket.
I’d like to be
Under the sea
In an octopus’s garden
in the shade