I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
What’s a neo pronoun? Is it the same as pronouns?
It’s a new pronoun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopronoun
Tldr
Pronouns: he/him/himself
Neo pronouns: zir/zirs/zirself
Noun-self pronouns: Kitten/Kittenself
Is there any good sources for further reading on noun-self pronouns?
This is the article cited in Wikipedia: https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/what-s-playful-what-s-deeply-meaningful-and-what-s-being-mean-a-guide-to-neopronouns-1.4539471
I was on Tumblr at the time but I didn’t realize my fellow Tumblrinas invented the noun-self pronouns
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Thank you. it is mindboggling that supposed trans allies can tell people they aren’t valid without seeing their hypocrisy.
My interactions with people complaining about this rule led me to delete my .world account and dust this one off from way back when I first joined Lemmy and was trying to figure things out. Regardless of the behavior of a person, I staunchly will never purposefully misgender them/use the wrong pronouns. If I do it to someone else, then I’m telling the world that it’s okay to dismiss anyone’s identity given the right justification. And that’s patently wrong and shitty.
I’d rather be part of an instance that protects identity, that is made for minorities and those who are often abused by the heteronormative world. Thank you for enforcing this and making a space where I can feel safe as a trans woman.
i bite my thumb at anyone who complains about drag. the most drag has ever done is correct people and VERY OCCASIONALLY call out when someone is actively belligerent about it.
reckon how folks treat our dearest dragonfucker is pretty good insight into how they’d react to myriad other similar social situations. this heavily contributes to why i have very little patience for folks “just asking (bad faith) questions” about it.
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I also blocked Drag. Not because I have any problems with using whatever pronouns a person wants, but because I found Drag insufferable.
My issues with dragonfucker are to do with the fact that drag decided to make an alt account and proceed to spam me with insults, porn, and even death threats. Creating a community to harass me publicly and pinging me on every fediverse account I owned.
I know I couldn’t actually prove it was drag who did it, Lemmy has awful tools to identify users, and drag denies all accountability, but the circumstances of it were so suspicious that I’d be willing to bet money that dragonfucker was the person behind it, or someone close with drag.
I’m not going to lie when I got the ping under the post asking for admins to help track me down so I could be tortured and killed I did get very scared that someone would show up at my home and I did actually contact the police about it. Though ultimately nothing came of the investigation.
It makes me very sad and also afraid that no one is addressing the real issues, instead choosing to complain about pronouns and debate the validity of other people’s genders. Which as an Agender person also makes me feel sad and also kind of unsafe.
Literally all of this drama can be avoided, if showing a little kindness didn’t involve killing.
Literally all of this drama can be avoided, if showing a little kindness didn’t involve killing.
Can you elaborate on that? I’m not getting it.
It’s a spin on “would it kill to show a little kindness?” Perhaps I could have worded it better, but, at this point, I’m so burnt out on drama that I just cant.
EDIT: Cursed can’t with no apostraphe I’m going to die soon
Don’t sweat it, you’re fine! I’m unplugging for the day for exactly that reason. It’s a lot.
My problem is the intense amount of trolls and the harm that they’ve caused. Ive seen this instance devolve into trolls, counter trolls (trolls), alt accounts (trolls), mods (myself included) not being able to keep up, and admins not doing enough (imo).
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and admins not doing enough
perhaps there needs to be more admins or something dunno just a thought *cough*
I completely agree
I’m in agreement with this, but I think people should complain about the trolling behavior and the abusive behavior, and not about the pronouns, because the trolling and abusive behavior is the real problem. Not people using different pronouns or having non-standard identities.
The alternative, is a queer instance that is built from the ground up with gatekeeping baked in to its core. You may be ok with that. I am not. This instance will never be that.
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100%.
You don’t get to decide if another person’s identity is valid or not. That’s literally just transphobia, and perpetuating that inside our own community is truscum behavior. An individual person has the final word on who they are, what they’re called and how to correctly refer to them.
humans are not perfect so both sides could be wrong or both correct or some mix so idk im being hypothetical so i expect to be incorrect
Lots of people in here who don’t get pronouns or trans people, for those I recommend this article:
There’s a very real chance you guys might be agender cis, which is super fascinating because it’s barely looked into, due to how agender cis people usually don’t even know that their experience isn’t universal.
I never saw that article before but I do like it, I have noticed that a lot of people who I know that identify as cisgender don’t seem to have an internal sense of gender or pay much mind to gender but I didn’t think anyone else thought that too. It’s nice to see my idea isn’t as unpopular as I initially thought.
Thanks for sharing this. As an older person working to sort out their gender identity later on in life it’s nice to have more ideas to consider.
I’ve wondered if gender identity is a bit like our other senses where we can practice and get better at discerning the signals we’ve always been receiving, but haven’t always known what they mean.
How much is trainable and how much is innate.
Anyway thanks again for sharing this.
It sure is trainable to some extent. I didn’t think I suffered from gender dysphoria when I first realised I was trans. I was only able to connect with gender euphoria to realise My identity. But after I experimented with My gender and tried on some new pronouns and self-images, I realised I hated being a male. I was miserable, but I wasn’t able to see My misery, because I thought it was just life. It’s like when someone with tinnitus doesn’t even realise they have it, because they’ve forgotten what silence sounds like. When I started thinking of Myself as trans, I experienced that metaphorical silence, and then I could hear the metaphorical ringing that was My dysphoria.
What a great article
Haha, look who it is. Love the article, a few of my friends have realized they also might be agender from it.
Thank you! I’d love to blow your mind a few more times if you’re interested in reading the rest of My stuff https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/you-already-think-like-a-soulist-fe1723151b85
It really is, I thought I was one of the only people to think that Agender might be really common but just hidden because many people who don’t feel gender can blend in as cis or not even know they’re Agender. Obviously we’ll probably never really know for sure but I do think it’s likely that many of the people out there who don’t feel gender or don’t think about gender are very likely Agender.
I also saw a meme a while back that said animals are Agender because they don’t give so much thought to gender the way humans do.
If you like exploring the unknown reaches of identity, I’ve got some articles I think you’ll like.
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/on-spiritual-genders-b4152c4503cb
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/introduction-to-capitalised-pronouns-f5140e722b48
https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/the-nested-structure-of-gender-identity-75681e3cfa34
Thank you, I’ll definitely give these a read, they look interesting.
I was interested until I saw the author and it clicked. Must be a broken clock situation.
I’ve only read a handful of Their articles, but all the ones I’ve read seem solid. Can I ask what your problem is with Them?
Aside from Them jumping the gun, causing an unwarranted dog piling on a well loved mod of a small community that was essentially a safe space for some, resulting in that user leaving Lemmy and the community completely dying, I have read at least one article of Theirs that called people who did not volunteer for war murderers, or something to that effect, I just remember it being an excessively nasty and unnuanced take.
In another article They also advocated for being generally unlikeable, which had some good points but ultimately goes against everything I think is good about being a leftist.
I recall that in general conversation They were often argumentative and quick to anger too, not someone I ever wanted to interact with, though frankly my memory on that aspect is shaky at best.
Just because someone might not have the same opinions as you, or even in some cases opinions you consider dead wrong it doesn’t mean they are always wrong.
Think of political parties, in one case a party you usually align yourself with makes a terrible decision, and in another case a party you hate makes a decision you would wholeheartedly support. Does that mean your prior preferred party is suddenly on the same level as your hated party? Depends, of course, but we can’t deny that we can’t expect everyone to share the exact same values as us. Variety is the spice of life, and sometimes even someone we consider to be right/wrong will surprise us in negative or positive ways.
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I think this page gives some good info on Neopronouns for those who might not be entirely in the know about them.
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My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people, and the concept of gender fluidity in general. Kind of an extension of the “one joke” conservatives have (“hurr durr, I identify as an attack helicopter”).
Obviously I can’t say for sure that’s what is happening, but I’ve read some of their comments that set off some red flags for me that maybe this person isn’t being genuine.
I personally err on the side of caution, so I’d never purposely insult this person by calling them “him” or “her,” but they’ll remain a “they” to me, as that is still gender-agnostic not offensive to someone with “neopronouns” (as far as I understand it).
I know a few neopronoun users and some are fine with they/them, some are just worn down into accepting they/them, and some really do not like they/them
It doesn’t really matter what you think about the person, the point is to take their word for it. If making people accept neopronouns is trolling then it’s not a bad thing and I am personally not upset by it. If that did somehow “discredit” me I would argue that it only reflects badly on those who think my acceptance of it is bad, they are using it as a weak excuse to attack me.
Using they may be considered misgendering if you know that that person doesn’t also go by they, neo-pronouns or otherwise.
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In other words, the correct response to someone demanding you call them what is almost certainly a troll neopronouns is to block them. Or, the equivalent in the real world is, “I’m not going to misgender you. I’m going to tell you to fuck off and never talk to me again. If that really is your gender, I guess I don’t like associating with people of that gender. Goodbye.”
It makes a mockery of real gender issues. I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
I’m really not trying to sound callous or offend anyone, but that’s just not the same thing and I don’t believe it should be treated with the same level of seriousness as actual gender fluidity.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real, and even if they were, they are not on the human gender spectrum.
I’m sure everyone will tell me how I’m wrong but whatever. This has nothing to do with transphobia. The opposite, in fact.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community. It legitimizes all of those stupid, “litter boxes in schools” things in many people’s minds. It does more harm than good.
i could identify as a unicorn if i want and for you to think you need to fight against that makes you a bad person. Who are you to say the self images others can or cannot have?
If you think you can just identify as something at will, you don’t understand gender. That attitude is an insult to the entire transgender community. Gender identity is not some fun feather you just stick in your cap. It’s an immutable trait. You don’t choose your gender identity, you simply have one.
If you think that gender is immutable, you are the one with the misunderstanding around gender. What do you think trans people change when they transition if not their gender?
Gender is a performance. You absolutely can change it or choose not to perform it altogether. Please educate yourself.
That’s maybe the most helpful argument I read here, I think I should reconsider what neopronouns are about.
Men are as made up as unicorns, but we all respect men’s gender identities, and we should.
I like how you used arguments that were/are used by T-exclusive LGB folks to dehumanize a different marginalized group and Lemmy users just ate it up.
It makes a mockery of real [gender issues | issues homosexuals deal with]. I fully support anyone who wants to [be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders | live openly with their partner of the same sex]. What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe [they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy | can just change their sex to the opposite].
You even used the “they’re just mentally ill” argument against them, you don’t even try to hide that you’re just riding a wave of what’s socially accepted already and what’s not yet.
I fully support anyone who wants to be anywhere on the spectrum of existing genders.
Can you list all these genders you accept so I know which ones are pure fantasy for you? Y’know, mere twenty years ago most people wouldn’t say more than two of them.
We know that it is possible for people to be assigned one sex at birth, but then fit anywhere in the spectrum. We also know that it is not possible for someone’s gender to be “unicorn.” Because unicorns aren’t real
“Men” and “women” are just social roles made up in the Stone Age and changed somewhat during the centuries of human history, that are just so happened to be bound to our genitals. There’s nothing real about it.
When people on the left legitimize these people’s obviously absurd claims, it is used as a cudgel to harm the trans community.
Are we politicians or what? Why should we make our identity ‘presentable’ for bigots?
What I’m not sure I support is indulging people’s possible mental illness by pretending it’s ok that they believe they’re a fictional creature that only exists in fantasy.
Good thing no one asked you.
Seriously. I’m fine with neopronouns that relate to the actual gender binary or spectrum. Something that says you’re male, female, somewhere in between, some oscillating state along the spectrum, or even a pronoun saying you don’t exist along the spectrum at all. But the key distinction here is that any neopronoun must relate back to the male/female gender spectrum. Otherwise you’re not describing gender, you are describing personality traits. Every personality trait and characteristic is not a gender.
I don’t quite understand your point, how can a pronoun denote that one is ‘somewhere in between male and female’ or even express more complex state as in your example? The idea looks impossible to implement to me, an example would definitely help
The umbrella term for this is nonbinary, and people often use they, or if they use neopronouns it’s something like xir.
The parent commenter’s point is that nonbinary identities typically relate back to the conventional gender spectrum in some way, whereas dragon does not and seems more like a fursona or character trait thing.
This is not made easier by the fact that “dragon” is a proper noun, and in fiction there are male and female dragons.
Yeah, when we get this specific example it does seem off. But if I were to choose some invented pronoun to show that I identify as ¾ male the pronoun itself will not convey that meaning even if it literally would be th¾y, that’s what my question of what are the examples was about
so we’re back to gender being indistinguishable from biologial sex, and there being only two settings with a option for some mixing of the parts on occasion? every single fucking time gender comes up we end up back here.
This “summary” you have proposed is not an accurate represntation of what the other person in this thread is arguing.
The reason people say these one or two users are trolling is not because of their pronouns. It’s because they demand accommodations that go well beyond pronouns and most of their posts are playing the victim.
What’s the worst thing that will happen if an obviously moronic masculine-presenting person says “hurr durr my pronouns are balls/sack” and you do what they ask and use those pronouns? Will they play along? Will they be offended? What’s a desirable outcome? What’s an undesirable outcome?
I was specifically talking about a user here who refers to themselves as a dragon, speaks in the third person calling themselves a dragon each sentence, insists that everyone they interact with on here also refers to them that way (also some other red flags like about how there is clearly some sort of kink aspect to this for them and their dragon partner), and gets people banned for questioning it.
I wouldn’t say I have a problem with the concept of neopronouns as a whole, though that’s more because I just haven’t thought enough about it to have an informed opinion.
But, to answer your question with respect to the behavior of the user I was referring to:
For transphobic people who are pushing an anti-trans agenda to gullible idiots who are already, at the very least, borderline homophobic, it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
It shows that there are people on the left who are willing to take it a few steps too far, and indulge in people’s possible mental illness where they believe their gender is a non-existent, fantasy creature. Something that’s literally not possible as it is not on the human gender spectrum. At least not as I understand it.
I’m sure people will tell me how I’m wrong.
No, I am sure in a case by case basis you are right and that seems like an exception to the rule though. I think the spirit of the topic is that we should just use pronouns on this instance even more common neopronouns like xir. My personal opinion is I think “they” is probably a fine blanket term for all gender neutrality, but that will likely “other” them into the bucket of “they”… so I can see how this is a tricky situation.
To call this a leftist thing is interesting though. We are discussing humans, not politics. I didn’t bring it up. My acceptance of all people other than me drives me to leftism, not the other way around.
Honestly, a general rule of thumb"act in good faith" is probably enough. Not hard to enforce and usually a small enough offense is enough to deter most.
Pronouns are a way of helping us find our identity and sharing it with the world. They tell other people who we are, and our relationship with our identity. Some people use them as an act of empowerment and reclamation. Some people use them to actively break down the normalisation of the gender binary as the default/only way of thinking about gender. Other people use them because it’s just the best way they have of describing their internal experience.
Which is a lot of words to say that you don’t know why someone is using neopronouns or what their intent is. All you can use is their actions. And if what they do is troll and stir up trouble with their actions, report that, because that’s the bit that matters, not the fact that they’re using pronouns you find challenging, which may be the very point.
it legitimizes all of those “libruls want to put litter boxes in your kids’ schools!” trans panic, bullshit.
You’ve got work to do on your understanding of how hatred works. No one hates us because we used a weird pronoun. They hate us because they’ve been taught to hate us, and ultimately, it doesn’t matter what we do or how perfect we are, they will find an excuse to manifest that hate.
There is no such thing as a person who would have supported us, but choses not to, because they don’t like unusual pronouns. There are people who support us and are uncomfortable with unusual pronouns, but someone who drops their support over that, was going to drop their support anyway over something, once they found an excuse that let them tell themselves that they’re not the bad guy in their story.
You can not win over hate by being on your best behaviour and existing on the terms of people who hate us. It has never worked and never will.
People here are really overcomplicating this.
Step 1: Treat everyone with respect, including respecting their communication preferences. If it becomes obvious they’re not being serious and/or respectful themselves (ball/sack, dog/shit), then simply disengage and report. Their bad behavior doesn’t justify anyone else’s bad behavior in response.
Step 2: If there’s only suspicion their requests/preferences are somehow a form of trolling, harassment, or the like, either…
2.1: Respectfully ask non-accusatory questions for clarification, then return to step 1
Or
2.2: Disengage, report to a mod, and let them handle this shitRinse and repeat.
There are two overwhelmingly likely results to this little workflow.
- A troll is treated with kindness and respect until it’s found they’re trolling, after which engagement ceases and mods have to deal with their shit. Remember: trolls get off on watching other people’s outrage. No response = no outrage = an unsatisfying trolling session.
- Someone who is not trolling but is having a difficult time being understood is treated with kindness and respect.
My only concern is that people (or one person in particular) aren’t genuine, but are doing to to discredit trans people
Ok, lets say that this happens.
That doesn’t mean that the correct response is to invalidate neopronouns. If that’s literally the goal of a troll, then saying “You’re a troll, I’m not going to use your pronouns” is literally what they want.
But I will also suggest you read up on Isabel Fall, to see why even the attack helicopter pronoun meme isn’t always a troll, and how the community itself can become harmful to its own members when it turns on them
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You’re literally in this comment trying to create a division between people talking in 3rd person and their community, so isn’t it you who is trolling?
idk, I know some genuine humans who do that. so nawww, that’s a real thing.
Sure thing. 🙃
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but it feels like a subversion of the concept as a whole.
Sometimes that is the point. Some folk who don’t fit in to the binary, but for whom “non binary” isn’t right either, who don’t have the language to describe their experience and feel trapped by the impact of the binary system, and for them, subverting the system itself and dislodging the expectations that come with it is part of the reason they choose their pronouns.
It’s still an act of claiming ones own identity and of reclaiming power, whilst also being a middle finger to the system.
And as I’ve said elsewhere, your opinions or my opinions on the validity of someone elses identity is irrelevant. You can think whatever it is you think, but you don’t get to invalidate their identity in this space, because normalising invalidation for people you don’t understand hurts every gender diverse person more than the act of a single troll.
Edit - And I removed your post, because at some point you verged from questioning and trying to gain understanding, to outright invalidation. If you can remove those parts, I’ll restore the post
I couldn’t figure out how to edit it while it was “removed” so I just deleted it, it probably isn’t really helpful for me to have a post on this that is, in essence “I won’t misgender you buuuuuut” and dump all my misconceptions and realizations about irrational anxieties like y’all are my therapist. I agree with you, no matter what I believe respect requires using somebody’s preferred pronouns.
