I’ve been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.
So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you’re unfamiliar with. It’s true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren’t only to be respected when you like the person you’re interacting with, or if their pronouns “make sense” to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn’t matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.
I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
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That MAP shit people regurgitate to try and defend or excuse pedophilia isn’t a valid sexuality, pedophilia is a heinous and disgusting crime. Pedophiles aren’t marginalized people, they are dangerous people who need to be locked up for the safety of others.
Neopronouns are valid as hell and all these people who refuse to acknowledge that fact are by definition transphobic.
You cannot claim to support trans people while declaring a subgroup to be invalid because you think they’re not doing it the right way. You are not an ally unless you support all trans people, people who use neopronouns are not the problem, you are.
Policing trans people makes you a transphobe.
Love this, Ada. So nice to see another instance run by caring, respectful folk. Love from beehaw!
Before I curse my worst enemy I will ask their pronouns. Their right to identity is not based on my respect for them.
Thank you, Ada. I truly wish it had not come to this, but making this post is one of a very few good choices you could make in such an awfully difficult situation. I respect your vision and commitment for the space you want to create here and I hope it works out for the best.
If we have to have gender-specific pronouns, sure. While well-intentioned, that approach will never be perfect, it’s STILL categorising people into smaller and smaller groupings in contexts where categorisation is unnecessary. We’re jumping through linguistic loops so complicated that we need cue-cards for, when we could just use gender-neutral pronouns universally.
Bespoke pronouns are also only a “solution” in English, which (mostly) has no gender-specific suffixes for nouns. In the spirit of inclusivity German has recently misguidedly settled on just repeating the noun with male and female suffixes, “I have to go to the hairdresser or hairdresseress”. Unarguably more quantitatively inclusive, this grammatical monstrosity is also more severely excluding people that fit in neither category. The answer isn’t “everyone should additionally specify their own suffixes so we can list off more variations” but rather to stop caring what gender cuts your hair altogether. Hairdresser can be a gender-neutral word. Here’s to them.
For everyone confused about neopronouns I would like you to consider what we could and could not do about them.
We could:
- Not respect them and let people bully neopronoun users
- Respect them and not let people bully neopronoun users
Doesn’t really matter if you want to use the pronouns or not, clearly respecting neopronouns is the only good way to deal with the situation unless you want to give people free reign to just talk down to, misgender, and harass a group of users.
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So you’re saying neopronouns have to be learned every time, and they’re bad because they’re confusing and effortful. But My neopronouns don’t have to be explained, on a basic level at least. Most people are familiar with capitalised pronouns, often from reading texts like the Bible. Given that My pronouns are a few hundred years old and somewhat familiar to most people, would you say My pronouns aren’t neopronouns at all, but instead perfectly fine regular pronouns?
Well, Grail, there had to be an explanation for them.
Besides that, some of us reject the notion of importance that is associated with capitalized pronouns. Everything indicates that there are no gods, only humanity. As such I personally tend to give every human the same basic respect, which also includes not elevating anybody above their peers as it by proxy would indicate others being lesser.
If a person were to attempt to elevate themselves above others by demanding special treatment & associating themselves with the notion of godhood by demanding capitalization, I would not oblige. Now, “god” is very clearly incapable of noticing any disrespect when referred to as he/she/it and nobody is hurt by that. However, a human might be.
The clear consequence being the only way to reconcile non-obligation and non-hurtfulness is referring to such a person by their name or not at all. So, I hope my fellow human now understands why I won’t be capitalizing any pronouns.
some of us reject the notion of importance that is associated with capitalized pronouns
I completely agree. And that’s why I’m confused, because it seems to Me that this line here contradicts the rest of your comment. You and I both agree that capitalisation shouldn’t indicate special treatment. So what’s the problem?
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Everyone deserves the right to use their chosen pronouns. There’s nothing special about that.
So you think you’re God? How comic book villain of you…
No, absolutely not. I think “God” should never be a proper noun. https://medium.com/@viridiangrail/god-should-never-be-a-proper-noun-4684aed46cb0
I think I’m a god. I’m a goddess of madness, rebirth, and mirrors. Born of the void in the time before time, imprisoned within consensus reality with the coming of the law-beings, escaped and sworn to vengeance against the rulers of this world for all the wrong they have done. Hope that clears everything up.
Definitely the something of madness, that’s for sure.
Also, my pronouns are “neopronouns are abused and often idiotic.” If you refer to me as anything other than this, you’re misgendering me.
Absolutely, I understand. I’ll make an effort to always refer to neopronouns are abused and often idiotic by neopronouns are abused and often idiotic’s preferred pronouns.
And you don’t see how that makes communication completely impossible? Just read that sentence, it make no sense at all. The purpose of having a trans community is to have just that - a community. “Communication” shares the same root. If you cannot effectively communicate, you cannot have a community.
I use capitalised pronouns. If we’re going to have this discussion, I’d rather that neopronouns are abused and often idiotic used My preferred pronouns.
There are plenty of neopronouns that are used by lots of people. In scandinavia we’ve adopted a common non-binary neopronoun f.ex, and english has lots of different ones that are very commonly used
Edit: Also not relevant, this post is about moderating misgendering. You’ve conveyed your problem, but you’ve not actually responded to anything in the post or in my comment.
My post was a response to yours arguing to always respect neopronouns. My problem with it is that this rule untenable. Your f.ex example is fine, as it’s used by a large number of people, it’s something that can actually be learned and applied.
The problem is that you cannot simply always respect neopronouns, as whenever you establish a zero-tolerance, zero-though principle like “always respect neo-pronouns, full stop,” there will be bullies that take advantage of that. There will be bad-faith actors who purposefully concoct “pronouns” that they obviously do not use. Like, what do you do if someone says their pronouns are racial slurs? You going to start respecting those pronouns?
Neo-pronouns have utility when a group of people use them and there is clear understanding around them. Those created by a single deranged or bad-faith individual need not be respected.
Some parts of the internet would call what you are doing concern trolling. Let’s assume it isn’t. This hasn’t happened yet at blåhaj, and I haven’t seen it happen elsewhere. Ada makes it clear in the post that this wouldn’t be acceptable and that someone with a slur as their pronoun would simply be removed.
This isn’t a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it’s not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.
Also I would like to note this part in Adas post:
or to not engage with them.
Why is it that none of you want to do this? Why do you all come here and lash out against neopronouns? You’ve already said it doesn’t make sense to you, but you are free to just leave and not participate, or to not engage with neopronoun users.
My current universal solution in such cases is either directly using names/handles or defaulting to even more general terms such as person/individual/user. Slightly clunkier linguistically and less personal but saves valuable brainspace.
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As Cishet white-ish person, who is only tangentially connected to this community IRL, but wants to be supportive, is there a definitive list of pronouns? It seems to me and many other people that if you just keep adding more and more, people get confused and or feel alienated and then some people get angry when confused, because they get frustrated and don’t want to do the wrong thing.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told, because It seems that once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts. We may as well just abolish all pronouns and only use proper nouns.
Side question, I’m neurodiverse (diagnosed ADHD, probably a bit on the spectrum), I feel very very weird before coming out to people, especially at work, as I think it will be used against me. There are still places in this world that would hurt/imprison/kill non-cis, non-hetero people. With such an interconnected world, especially with those places, how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
is there a definitive list of pronouns?
No. In the same way there’s no defintive list of genders, it would be virtually impossible to catelog every pronoun, or every single name. So it’s important to be careful because you could always come across a new pronoun that hasn’t been written down somewhere yet. But! That doesn’t mean people haven’t tried :) https://pronouns.page/ is a helpful resource that covers multiple languages.
I usually default to “they” unless absolutely told
This is a good strategy :)
once it gets so individualized, things go a bit nuts
This is really sadly only an issue online, where trolls and generally just unkind people do pose a real threat. Always respect people’s requested pronouns, but if you do suspect something shady, @[email protected] wrote out a handy guide here https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/12169135
how does one handle it while also trying to keep being proud of your identity? Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
Yes, it often does. :( Being on Blahaj.Zone is a good start to finding respite from the constant harassment, but even here there are problems as the need for this post from Ada shows.
You sound like you’ve got the right idea and a good handle on things. Neopronouns are generally a very case-by-case thing and not at all common, people who use them generally will (politely and without fuss) let you know, and many neopronoun-users (not all but many) also accept they/them. It’s not a thing that comes up a lot, and personally I think people tend to give the concept too much mental bandwidth. The important thing is to be respectful of each individual, if you’re not actively being a dickhead you probably don’t have too much to worry about on that front.
is there a definitive list of pronouns
Not really, there are lists of the more well known ones. But they absolutely are not definitive. Much like gender, prounons are a social construct. It’s just a quickie handhold to communicate how that particular person sees themselves. They’re essentially stereotypes of stereotypes that mold and change over time. Which is why what’s considered women’s work (cooking) and men’s work (grilling) have shifted over time. Redneck, goth, jock & etc are all different forms of gender because it loosely describes how that person presents to the world. So a new gender/prounons is born, valid and inherently correct the moment someone says it. Gender is a social performance and there is no way to do it wrong.
Wouldn’t putting neo pronouns in a profile open you up for targeting?
When I was in the early days of my transition, I literally asked the same thing! Good question! You’re right, to put your new name/prounons into your name is inherently sorta doxxing yourself. You’re unfortunately entirely correct that it’s a risk depending on where you live. However the answer is also unfortunate and that’s its worth the risk to most people. All of our situations are different, but without question there are trans folk, out or closeted, that do not get to use their chosen name/prounons in real life. If they don’t use it online, the they effectively don’t get to be correctly identified in any part or their life. It’s out of desperation to be validated in some way. It’s a bummer, but I get it. I’m lucky and privileged enough to be out full time, so I don’t use my name online. But I’m absolutely not gonna judge how another person gets through the day.
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ahh yes calling trans people who you think didn’t do it the right way idiots, telling them their concerns aren’t valid, and that their existence undermines the “real” trans people, all classic ways of supporting people trying to express their gender identity.
Your reading comprehension needs work.
and your respect for trans people needs work <3
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DAY/UM
What’s a neo pronoun? Is it the same as pronouns?
It’s a new pronoun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopronoun
Tldr
Pronouns: he/him/himself
Neo pronouns: zir/zirs/zirself
Noun-self pronouns: Kitten/Kittenself
Is there any good sources for further reading on noun-self pronouns?
This is the article cited in Wikipedia: https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/what-s-playful-what-s-deeply-meaningful-and-what-s-being-mean-a-guide-to-neopronouns-1.4539471
I was on Tumblr at the time but I didn’t realize my fellow Tumblrinas invented the noun-self pronouns
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idk, I know some genuine humans who do that. so nawww, that’s a real thing.
Sure thing. 🙃
You’re literally in this comment trying to create a division between people talking in 3rd person and their community, so isn’t it you who is trolling?
