Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don’t really know how to ask this question so I hope I’m making sense
There’s been a concerted effort over the last several decades to push a men vs women dynamic online, and most men don’t buy into it, so it’s really just been people shitting all over men without consequence. Just look at the other answers here focusing exclusively on how men can be blamed (edit: many better replies have been posted since I made this comment).
Quite likely pushed excessively by foreign propaganda.
What makes you think this is a gendered thing?
I don’t think it is a gendered thing, but there are societal expectations regarding men versus women that can complicate the issue
Anyone who has gendered expectations is not a friend. Avoid them.
Saying this doesn’t make the problem go away, it just makes you avoid the problem. Ironically, if you’re a man, this often makes the problem worse for you.
Women are better at being friends to each other. I’ve basically given up on trying to make friends with other men because they are terrible friends. At best, they make no effort at all at friendship and are completely passive, requiring you to call and make all the plans. At worst, they are hostile in various ways when you try to befriend them. It is very rare to meet another dude that makes effort to be a friend.
Edit: it’s soooo funny to see this comment being downvoted because it will only perpetuate your loneliness. You deserve it.
Lack of socializing. We’ve lost the third place in modern society. It’s work and home and nothing else. Lots of people work from home now, which is great, but only if you have a third place. You have to meet people in the real world and find a way to connect with them.
People laugh, but churches are a good way to do that. Check one out, sit in the back, and watch the people who show up- the demographics, make sure the congregation is diverse, etc. If you see a same-sex couple walk in and sit down like they’ve done it a hundred times, you don’t have to worry about all the hate bullshit.
Church is a great way to meet people in a place where everyone feels safe and accepted. They are extremely welcoming to newcomers. There are always activities and groups to join. Churches have been the third place for literally centuries.
Even if you have irreconcilable philosophical differences, check out a Unitarian church.
Church is not a great place for third places- unless you happen to be like all the others at that particular church.
No church will actually accept you unless you’re the same as them. The “sameness” doesn’t have to be about race or orientation or accepting that.
They might be totally willing to let you in the front door, but unless you conform, that won’t be for long.
Libraries are a much, much better 3rd place, and they don’t try to ram theology down your throat to use it.
I’ve never talked to anyone in a library. Have you? Generally conversations are taboo in my experience. Maybe things have changed since I was able to go to one and relax.
Yes.
All the time.
I’m there at least once a week and I usually chat with the librarians for recommendations and to catch up with a few staff I’ve gotten to know.
They also have around 30 different clubs going on weekly, one of which I occasionally lead (teaching people the basics of 3d printing and design,) and that’s not including the dozens of book clubs they got, or the movie clubs.
And then there’s the larger events like “art days” or visiting cultural groups. The drag story hour, the princess story hour; the story hour for adults.
The major alternatives to prom and homecoming dances.
The tabletop gaming sessions.
Bingo night. Gin, hearts, spades and bridge night.
Most libraries will have something for everyone, even the poorly funded Hicksville ones where the churches likes to sell itself as an alternative 3rd space.
This is good advice but also note there are other alternatives to church that function the same way like humanist churches or the satanic temple. Note the satanic temple has nothing to do with satin and is not the same as the church of satin.
DUI laws.
What?
Lol. Bad joke. What I was getting at is people used to hang out at bars and drink more (alcohol use was worse). More generally, it’s a lack of third places and car-based city design. More, and more engaging in-home entertainment/Internet also probably plays a part. Though, it’s probably not a completely new phenomenon either, judging from art like Taxi Driver, Catcher In The Rye, etc. So, toxic or even plain masculinity likely makes it harder to make and keep close friends.
I’d bet female loneliness is also rising in modern society as well, due to modern phenomenon. Humans didn’t evolve to live like we are. We used to mostly live in small, close-knit tribes.
I’m fallowing now.🥴
What
I don’t even think it’s an exclusively male thing. It’s just getting harder and harder to meet people and mingle. Men are just feeling it harder and sooner.
It’s harder to meet people now. I think part of it is:
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That people used to be bored. You would make entertainment where you could find it, and two bored people can rapidly get entertained. Now you have a phone that makes you not bored, and de-incentivizes face to face interaction.
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There used to be more places where people interacted. Masons, elk lodge, unions, they would often serve alcohol at events, for dirt cheap. They were known as third places, somewhere other than work and home. One thing I hear from a lot of smokers is that the smoking areas are where people hang out to talk, and they do. It’s where conversations happen at a club. It gives you something to do when you’re not talking, a reason to stand somewhere close to people, and a perfect excuse to jump into a conversation. It’s kinda infuriating that it also shaves two minutes off your life -_-.
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People have less time. Younger generations are working multiple jobs, gigs with unpredictable hours, often times having commutes of an hour which turns a 9 to 5 into an 8 to 6, and spending all their vacation hours on the shit that has to be done on a weekday like the DMV or the like. How are you supposed to make a friend when schedules differ so much that a spreadsheet is required to make it work?
IDK; my partner has met ppl that have become very close friends at their workplace. I’ve become more and more isolated as I’ve worked as an adult, to the point where I have zero close friends.
I hope to fix that this year though; I’ll be trying to get my handgun and rifle instructor cert so I can work with the Pink Pistols and Operation Blazing Sword, and connect with my local SRA chapter. E.g., try to do something good in my community, and also meet people.
Male culture also tends to avoid building real relationships and hiding their feelings, and depending on how they look people are scared to be around them. Effort needs to be taken for most men to unlearn toxic traits of the past, which it seems like younger kids today are getting better at avoiding, but there’s definitely a handicap for most men here.
What happens to a man when he shares his feelings? Has that ever gone well for any male since the evolution of meiosis?
Ask the exs I cried in front of who then lost their physical attraction to me. Never doing that again. Having sex semi-regularly is a hell of a lot better than having a shoulder to cry on.
Gets avoided, gets called gay, gets told to man up, gets made fun of
That’s kinda sad but true. Fun fact though, you get to choose your friends. If any of mine reacted like that I’d stop hanging out with them. It’s imperative you have a solid social circle who is gonna help and raise you up. If the toxic masculinity bros wanna hate on being human and having feelings they can fuck off and they’re not invited to my party. Only cool people are allowed.
Yeah, I stopped hanging around my toxic friends too. This was a big part of why I was lonely throughout my 20s.
This, too, is how I roll.
This is part of man culture that we men need to change one step at a time. Instead we bully each other over it.
No we don’t. That’s a feminist lie. The women whose political power depends on maintaining a perpetual state of victimhood by blaming every single thing on men would have you believe that.
Men will have conversations like this:
“Tiffany left me.”
…
“Really?”
…
swig of beer
…
“Yeah. Said I’m not ‘available enough.’”
…
swig of beer
…
“Shit dude.”
…
“Yeah.”
Enough information is shared for one man to put himself in the other’s shoes, think about what he went through, and arrive at the same place for himself. That need women have to put their feelings into words to yap at each other is just a symptom of their abject inability to empathize with their fellow sentient beings.
You know what doesn’t occur to men to share with other men? “Breaking news, this just in from our correspondants in the field: Nothing continues to happen.” In fact I’m going to go post that to the Dull Men’s Club community and see what comments that attracts.
No, the people who will destroy you for being anything other than fine are the women in your life. Your mother, your sisters, your daughters, whatever name your sexual partner(s) insist on being called. They’re the ones who will kick you the hardest when you’re down. You will never be more alone than when you’re surrounded by women.
As someone who had very different experiences with women and prefers opening up to them over men, I can assure you that there is a healthier way of living out there and I hope you can let go of your bitterness some day.
Just reading that makes it sound like you hate women. I’m sure you don’t…but if you’re giving off that kind of feeling / vibe whatever you want to call it, then maybe that’s why you feel alone when you’re surrounded by women. People can pick up on cues like that and avoid people like that.
Also,
menpeople need to talk more than in your example. This is the exact kind of behavior and thinking that contributes to male loneliness.Enough information is shared for one man to put himself in the other’s shoes, think about what he went through, and arrive at the same place for himself.
You just created an example where you imply it’s not okay for men to need more than this. That’s not healthy for you or anyone dude.
Women have worked pretty hard to earn my apathy, so why should I deny them the prize they so vehemently seek? They’re not on my side, as an intentional consequence I am not on theirs.
Seems like the common denominator is you. I hope you can work through that.
Your name definitely checks out bro…
You’ve never heard men say “dude, just suck it up and get over it already. Don’t be a wuss.” about similar issues to other men?
About relationship stuff I can honestly say that I haven’t ever seen that. Other than like “hey I know you’re hurting but why don’t you come out with us and we’ll try to help you get back on the horse”. Which I think is pretty positive.
I am reminded of a book called Good To Go by Harry Constance, a US Navy SEAL who served in Vietnam. The exact line of the book it reminds me of is “No swimming.”
I’ve once heard it said that men insult their friends but don’t really mean it, women compliment their friends but they don’t mean it either. I’ll take “Come on, walk it off you’re alright” over faked sympathy every day for 37 more years.
Seems like everyone in your life treats you terribly. Is it possible that the problem might lie with the common factor here? Consider finding a therapist to help you through these thoughts.
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Get out where? If you have no friends where do you go? Some bar where you stand around awkwardly by yourself while everyone else came with friends?
sdfhjlaks;fjlk;asfjkl;sfjakl;
Okay I’ll just get over crippling social anxiety. Great advice. Thanks.
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Yes, if this is an issue you have: you should start taking steps to address it!
There are a number of online services to get you started, or see a therapist for personalized help from a professional. Mental health issues are real, but can be addressed with the right treatments. They won’t likely go away on their own, you’ll need to find the right strategies that work for you and then put in the effort & time to address it.
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Women are not putting themselves out anymore
I am not sure what this means. Women will always make themselves available to a guy they like, they all just like the same few guys while the rest of male population gives them the ick.
Women don’t owe you sex, learn and grow as a person
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When you have a significant change in the population dynamic, it takes a significant time for the population not (really) effecting this change to adjust.
From my perspective as an old bloke, Women now treat relationships as transactional or have standards that are impossible (for that individual) to achieve; men are reacting in the only way available. There are obviously a number of reasons for the changing in dynamic and I’m not making that statement to judge or analyse; mass change requires motivation. The motivation presented itself.
To my mind society is in the same incredible flux as when the female pill became a real and accessible/allowable thing fifty years ago. Gillick competence case law didn’t happen in the UK until 1985; that’s awfully late to protect young women.
The risks to a man of a long-term relationship significantly outweigh the potential rewards. Being aware of the overwhelming risks and deciding not to engage doesn’t stop one being lonely.
“I used to think the worst thing in life was to end up all alone. It’s not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone.” - Robin Williams
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by risk and why is it worse for men?
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https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/risk I’m assuming you’re not familiar with the word and English is not your first language.
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- 80 - 90% of women win custody battles, despite prisons being almost entirely of fatherless homes. Homes where the father is the single parent have the same recidivism rate as two parent homes. 100k children each year lose contact with a parent as a result of divorce - guess which parent usually. Legal Shared parenting has almost completely disappeared.
- False accusations of violence are free or fully funded for women. In the England/Wales when legal aid introduced the requirement of domestic violence before legal aid was granted, on the quarter of this rule coming in (2011) applications under domestic abuse as documented by CAFCASS were multiplied by 10 times. Either men collectively decided to start beating their wives in that quarter or fully funded false accusations were exposed as an issue.
- About 20-30% of children are not related to their father as named on their birth certificate. Statistics from the child maintenance body in the UK shows that for the thousands of men placed on child maintenance applications over a third were shown to be false applications citing unrelated men. In France, it is illegal it seek the DNA child - father match for your own children. Visit a genealogy community or ancestry on Reddit or Facebook.
- In the UK the 1971 law (MCA) says effectively that joint marital assets follow the children. The woman typically gets around 80%+ of net assets because they have custody of the children. that’s a personal observation because these are private law cases. The government refuses to publish the real numbers.
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(I’m tired of typing now) Domestic violence against men is ignored; or the victim is arrested. There are no shelters for men and children in the whole of the UK. Erin pissey, a lovely woman, who came up with the idea for shelters for DV survivors for both sexes was removed from the organisation she started by feminists and now campaigns for DV shelters for men. All of these government money for supporting male victims of DV is given to 'Women’s Aid" after their successful bid years ago. There is still no support for male victims; it doesn’t take a genius to imagine why.
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(Others are going to have to help finish these.) Sixty five years after the female pill, there is no male equivalent. Women can opt out of being a mother with abortion, men don’t have the right to opt out of their equivalent. I don’t know a guy who hasn’t been told “you can take the condom off, I’m on the pill” - if he refuses a row ensues. I do know of the sale of positive pregnancy tests, condom mining for semen which is then used to become pregnant and the “on the pill” being a complete lie.
Thanks for typing these out! I asked more because I wanted to know where exactly you were coming from, not strictly because I didn’t have the language skills. Then again, i think it is very much worth it to have the information on these shared more widely
My apologies. I was confused why you asked me about the word risk. My bad assumption.
Netflix subscribers might watch: https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/81927969
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The juice ain’t worth the squeeze.
Here’s a theory. I’m sure it has lots of holes in it.
Male loneliness has always been a thing. In cultures where it isn’t/wasn’t, there was a strong family relationship and older men modelling how to relate to others.
To hide from loneliness, men were able to join clubs, hang out at pubs, volunteer, or bury themselves in work.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
What’s changed is that it is now socially OK to talk about loneliness (at least in online forums like this), so more people are aware it’s an issue.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
That is glossing over a lot of context, a big one being that club membership is down (that’s a big point of Bowling Alone). I would not be surprised if many clubs relocated or shut down due to low membership, especially after raising membership fees. Or y’know that they were already a middleclass thing, thus canaries.
Pubs are also going to rely on prices, but the most social ones likely are accessible by free public transit or are located in a walkable/mixed-use area (particularly cities designed before+not-bulldozed-for cars).
I don’t think this is about awareness, especially when most people have less friends and less (or no) social engagement.
The entire country is designed to physically isolate people into shiti suburban houses.
Only solution is to quit being poor and live in specific major cities that didn’t get ruined by shiti car lobbies 🤡
I think you have something here. I grew up in the country where people had to actively seek out activities and relationships, including with people they may not otherwise choose to be around. In the city/burbs, I actively chose to travel by foot/transit/someone else’s vehicle, even though it would have been easier to drive everywhere (I mean, sidewalks that just… vanish halfway to a destination? No transit east-west on major arteries? City planners obviously are prioritizing vehicle traffic).
But as a result, I’ve never felt isolated AND have the skills to connect with others who aren’t like me. It’s those skills that seem to have been going away as people hide themselves in their social media bubbles and behind their steering wheels. The same opportunities for socialization are still there, but they take more effort than people are used to making because there’s easier alternatives available than there used to be.
I think you may have missed the point I was making though— clubs and other pastimes didn’t make people less lonely; they only distracted people from their loneliness. Today the same distractions can be found via social media, so instead of all those other activities, people just need a phone.
But the anonymizing nature of social media means people feel more free to discuss their loneliness when they do self-reflect.
Patriarchy harms and isolates men first so that they become the monsters that women fear.
The same way women are expected to look and act a certain way, so is for men, with different criteria.
Not by people per se, but by a sort of cultural subconscious, like a chaos creature from warhammer it exists because people believe in it, not necessarily because they agree with it. Everyone fears it, so most comply.
That’s why it is so important to destroy the social gender binary, the idea that we all neatly fit in well defined labels that apply to our body and mind. It’s just complete bullshit and internalizing it is one of the many ways this system traps us in its oppression
Never don’t downvote posts with the word “patriarchy” in them. The right says “DEI hire” the left says “Patriarchy.”
Except if you did just the slightest bit of research you’d know patriarchy is an anthropological and well defined phenomenon not based on prejudice but on research of oppression throughout millennia, while the other is just an excuse to be intolerant.
This kind of false equivalences really show people’s disinterest in going deeper with their judgment. There’s nothing comparable about the two other than widespread use
Absolutely agree.
One of the ways we’ve gone wrong so far is that people do need some guidance at least on what is possible and acceptable.
Just saying to young people “Be whatever you want to be” is unhelpful and confusing.
Role models of all kinds and representation matter so people who are figuring these things out as they grow have inspiration, ideas, can see who they are reflected in the world around them so they can put a name to the feeling.
If we can do that without shaming, blaming or excluding then people can find their way without the need of gender binary.
Caveat, not everyone is a suitable role model. Some people are warnings, not examples.
There was a meme the other day about how Aragorn from lotr is the kind of male role model men need. Kind, shows his emotions, strong without being cruel.
And what’s up with cab drivers and B.O. - how long are those shifts? I’m thinkin’ Hey!
What’s up with dumb answers to serious questions? I’m just wondering, Hey!
sdfhjlaks;fjlk;asfjkl;sfjakl;
Male loneliness has probably always been a thing. Lonely men were expected to work difficult jobs, or fight in wars for kings, or just kill themselves.
Some women would have experienced similar issues, along with probably greater rates of sexual abuse, etc.
I think there have always been quite a few people with shit lives throughout history; it’s just that society doesn’t want to acknowledge these people. People who are doing fine in life want to pretend that life is fair, when actually it isn’t.
We’re meant to be alone.
Humans are social animals
I need the most cynical take you have…
…nooooh, that’s too cynical.
We aren’t though. That’s just something we’re told.
Too many cars. No more third place.
Oh, too many cars! Absolutely, makes sense…
How much time do you willingly spend in public interacting with others?
There was a lot more of it happening before society required everyone to have personal transportation.
I’m an introvert so I am at home, work, or errands. I probably would talk to a lot more strangers if I had to use public transport and it wasn’t so expensive to do anything fun in public.
You would?
I use public transit daily and hardly ever interact with anyone. Maybe there is one interaction every 100 days? I don’t frequently see two strangers interacting either, it’s unheard of except maybe for retirees with effectively infinite time.
Well, people will ask you for directions sometimes so that’s something…
The best you get in a car is road rage
A challenge for you (or anyone interested in taking it up): Once a day, while waiting for public transit, pay attention to the people around you. Does anyone have something interesting about them (hair, clothes, jewelery, weird keychain thing on their phone, etc.)? Ask one identified person about it. See someone who looks like they are on the verge of tears? Ask them “Hey, is everything ok?”
9/10 times you’ll have a brief Q-A-back off interaction, but sometimes it’ll turn into a longer conversation. Yes, it feels awkward. Yes, in some places you’ll come across as rude/uncomfortably weird (keep your dominant culture in mind - you probably wouldn’t try this in some place like Finland or something). But I’ve had some very interesting experiences doing this in the past (usually with the ones who look upset - if you’re willing to be a sympathetic ear you might just make that person’s day).
I can imagine little worse than doing what you just described although that is (in part) due to moderate social anxiety. I behave in the exact opposite way - ignoring people regardless of how much they stand out because I don’t want to stare.
Though I can imagine what you’ve been doing has helped others.
Bar culture is still very much alive but I think people are less inclined to go to those places alone now.
10 dollar drinks and DUIs will do that
This is basically it. It costs money to hang out with people IRL, everytime, all because of cars. We are all spread out so far now, except in a handful of places. Even without factoring in cars, the amount of activities that people can do for free or cheap is dwindled to basically nothing. This is simplistic, but the reality is no one can really afford real friends anymore.
I would posit that the internet and abundant screen entertainment contributed to killing third places far more than cars. The US has had a car culture for a very long time. (I’m not saying that makes it a good thing.)
Maybe. But if people had the sqme amoubt of screen time and wqlked or biked, or took public transit there would be more forced interaction than there is in car culture.
I think they go hand in hand. And right now we got both.
Others have explained it (places where social interaction is the primary intent - not home and not work) but I’ll add - old European cities (and most smaller towns) have some sort of public square. Many have lasted to this day and are still used. We can still build them, we but our chosen form of urbanization isn’t that conducive to it so we don’t. In North America in the 80 and into the 90s, malls we’re 3rd place. Then they started aggressively going after loitering in malls since simply sitting in a mall doesn’t produce economic activity. Many malls died and many are still dying. Those that survived achieved the - nobody goes there to chill anymore. Just to buy what they need, maybe eat, and then leave. Nobody plans to “meet at the mall” anymore.
What’s “third place”?
The colloquial “third place” is, as I understand it, a (usually) public place OUTSIDE of Home or Work where people can meet, hangout, play, or just exist without the expectation of spending money or being productive in some way. Examples would be Parks, Libraries, old-timey Public Houses and Cafes, Playgrounds, Forests and Wilderness within walking distance, and more.
Car culture killed a lot of that by removing the ability to reasonably walk places outside major metro areas, as businesses relocated to cities, and because they straight up increased the fatality rate for walking substantially. Internet Culture also killed it since you can just talk to your buddies through the Demon Rectangle instead of meeting IRL.
Automotibles are not car culture. If anything car culture turns a garage into a third place, by your definition, and brings other people out of their houses and out of the workplace, to meet. Car culture is more an adaptation people have made due to the advent of the automotible and the problems you attribute to “car culture”. Everything has expanded and is cut up by streets and shit because automotibles are useful… as a side effect has made it harder to have a third place, as you have pointed out, and so people who engage in car culture actually overcome the challenge by integrating automotibles into their culture, they persevere.
I would actually make the same argument for internet culture. The internet isn’t internet culture, and if anything internet culture has allowed people to express themselves through the internet, embracing it and integrating it into their lives rather than just living beside it. For people who consider themselves part of internet culture, the internet is their third place where they play.
With that said, it’s still an interesting idea. I do think we pay a high price for the luxuries that we have today and it’s not well understood. Having infrastructure designed around automotibles, for example, fucking sucks.
In sociology, the third place refers to the social surroundings that are separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. Examples of third places include churches, cafes, bars, clubs, libraries, gyms, bookstores, hackerspaces, stoops, parks, theaters, among others
Places that aren’t home or work. Social places, like bars.
Funny you should phrase it like that.
My uncle is a machinist specializing in automotive engine repair and modification. Over dinner last month, he mentioned that he’s used to seeing middle age customers for hot rod engine builds, midlife crisis “Always wanted to do this” kind of guys, but lately he’s been seeing men in their teens and twenties come in wanting heads ported and polished and shit like that.
They’re not spending money on women because women have made themselves impossible to want, so young men are turning their attention to things like cars.
So you’re saying they want their heads polished by a man because women are unattainable? Interesting…
Hmmm
women have made themselves impossible to want
No sure what this mean… There is never lack of demand for pussy. It is always supply constrained ever since people figure how to trade
With that being said, yound adult men generally no market value since they have no status which is a key in getting with women. Status is linked to class but that’s just a part of it.
As is echoed a lot in this entire post of replies: therapy isn’t really mentioned here. And that might be a key when it comes to male mental and emotional health.
Explain to me in actual words what a therapist is going to accomplish.
“Doctor doctor you’ve got to do something! Third spaces don’t exist, there’s no loitering signs everywhere you’ll be arrested for standing around talking, everyone my age had kids and their lives fell off, bars charge $9.50 for an ounce of bourbon and expect a tip and they play Nickelback loud enough to be heard from the moon so I’ve just been sitting at home alone drinking diet soda and playing Subnautica over and over again and while I utterly love this game it’s getting a little stale and Below Zero isn’t…good at all? So I guess I’m a little bored.”
“…Here’s a prescription for an SSRI, that’ll be $900.”
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Let’s put it another way:
“Why aren’t men using electrical appliances anymore?”
“Well, since the Republicans shut down Underwriter’s Labs 40 years ago they’re just too dangerous. A poll conducted by Pew Research in 2062 found only 30% of men between the ages of 20 and 40 have attempted to use a kitchen appliance and of those 30% none polled did so without being shocked, burned or lacerated. Of the men polled, none of them reported cooking indoors more than twice a year; they either exclusively seek food that requires no preparation or those who have access to the outdoors cook over wood fires. One in ten report eating canned or frozen food cold on at least a weekly basis.”
“There’s just nothing you can do to get men to seek mental health services, is there?”
How is individual talk therapy supposed to fix industry deregulation due to crony capitalism?
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I live in a town that is mostly a suburb of a military base. They’ve been cutting down as much forest as they can to cram in oversized McMansions to accomodate the influx of people moving out of the cities. Deer and raccoons have been running rampant in my neighborhood because their habitats out in the woods are being destroyed for subdivisions and shopping centers. The county recently failed to get the general assembly to budge on water restrictions on the two rivers the county government is authorized to pull water from, so they’re starting to pressure my town (which has its own waterworks that pulls from a different river than the county) to share ours. None of the people coming into the area are joining a community; none exists here. People here build tall opaque fences on their property lines and watch Netflix alone. There is no community, only a crowd.
And then a therapist is going to ask a stupid and unhelpful question like “How does that make you feel?”
My car doesn’t start most of the time and when it does it doesn’t run for very long, I’ve missed work three times last week alone because of car troubles, he’s threatening to fire me if I don’t get it right but I don’t have the money for a mechanic. “How does that make you feel?”
Feelings are the raw ore from which bad decisions are forged. How I fell is wrong and irrelevant. What am I supposed to DO?
I don’t think therapy can help everyone. I think it can help those who are (either knowingly or subconsciously) looking inward for solutions. For those of us that are fairly comfortable in our own skins and are frustrated by externalities, I don’t think therapy would be very productive. That said, at a personal level with the goal of self improvement I probably could be a little more introspective about some things but I’m not bothered enough to go to a therapist for it.
I’m reminded of Joe Shea. The one who was senior chief manager of something or other at NASA during the Apollo program. You can tell Joe was a good man from how he took the Apollo 1 fire: He wanted to kill himself. He struggled to live with the idea that three of his close friends, people who trusted him and his engineers, burned to death in a machine he had some responsibility for. The man who isn’t fucked up in that position doesn’t need to be in that position.
My understanding of history is he was sent to see some psychologists, and their remarks was “Joe is very smart.” I’ve been in the aviation industry myself and I’ve danced around issues of mental health. FAR 67 has some things to say about what mental health is and isn’t a federal offense to let your doctor to tell Oklahoma City. HAHAHAHAHA. Fuck.
That’s the peak of manliness right there; that’s a man who takes his responsibilities seriously, they guy who is completely wrecked by those three little words “They trusted me.” Or more to the point, the chore of adding the letters “ed” to “they trust me.” If the effort of lifting that suffix into place wouldn’t bend your soul, kindly get the fuck out of my aerospace industry.
This was in the mid 1960’s, the stigma of seeing a shrink was even louder back then. I’m not sure how it actually played out but in the docudrama From The Earth To The Moon, Joe Shea didn’t take the suggestion from Deke Slayton that he see a psychiatrist gently. According to Wikipedia he “outsmarted” them, giving the answers he knew they’d want to hear.
From my perspective it’s a perfectly good suggestion. If you’re in the shop running a tool and it throws a blue chip in your eye, you go see the ophthalmologist to get your eye fixed. If you have a heart attack you go to the cardiologist to get your heart fixed. The thing us technician types struggle with is medicine is a squishier science than we’re used to, and psychology is the squishiest among them, especially given the FAA’s idea of “Oh he’s not perfect? Kill his career forever.” HAHAHAHAHAAAAA. Fuck. “Hey, let’s make it illegal for pilots to receive treatment or be on medication for mental disorders.” “You mean let’s make it illegal to be a pilot while mentally ill?” “What’s the difference?” “Well the way you phrased it incentivizes pilots who think they have a problem to keep it to themselves and go untreated.” “pssh I guess but when is that ever going to happen.” HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA. Fuck.
I think the point I’m trauma dumping around is Joe Shea had suffered actual mental and emotional trauma and did need the attention of mental health professionals. That’s an appropriate use of therapy. And that it may be more productive to frame it as “injury” rather than “illness” in cases like this.
The average male member of the public right now, on the other hand, hasn’t had his psyche pushed in by the deaths of his friends that he’s at least partially responsible for. The average 20 something guy gained sentience in a world that said to him “We hate you, now pay for everything or else.” And to quote Rodney Dangerfield, “Fuck me? FUCK YOU!”
Explain to me in actual words what a therapist is going to accomplish.
Lots of men aren’t taught emotional intelligence and therapy is helpful for better identifying your emotions so your choices can actually have impactbon them.
I take it you didn’t read and process the rest of my comment?
I’m very aware of the strawman, you specifically asked for an answer. Those are real issues, but you asked how a therapist could help.
I was a pilot one or two careers ago, so I’m going to put it this way:
Feelings are liabilities, not assets. You launch an Airbus out of Newark and a few hundred feet up you hit more geese than your engines can take leaving you out of thrust, low on altitude and low on options, the emotional decision is to curl up on the floor and snot cry because you’re now in more danger than nature designed you to handle.
On occasion you’ll find cases where pilots do lock up like that. The kindest thing anyone will ever say about those pilots is “The primary cause of the accident was pilot error.”
Now listen to how they talk about Captain Sully. “He’s so calm. There’s no emotion in his voice, he just started working the problem.” Stopping to identify exactly which crayola crayon color exactly matched his emotional state in that moment wasn’t going to lengthen any lives; starting the APU and configuring the airplane for best glide did though. You stay in your feelings, you start doing stupid irrational things, you’re gonna die for sure. You push all of that down to your ass where it can be safely clenched out of the way and you THINK.
Having feelings is how you fuck up when your decisions matter the most. Getting rid of them is the useful skill, not giving each one a Baskin Robbins 31 flavors marketing name.
You repress your feelings and wonder why you’re lonely. You don’t realize how much they impact your life until you know how to recognize them, I myself went through that too. It wasn’t until I learned more about my emotions that I truly felt happy, wanted. Repressing feelings doesn’t work, not in a social setting, because you repress all your emotions, even the positive ones.
I think therapy helps as a remediation, but it’s not preventive nor does it fully solve the problem because ultimately it’s transactional and paying someone to listen is fully different from finding someone who listens to you that you also want to listen to.
That’s the thing though: if you’re having trouble finding someone who wants to listen to you, the problem might possibly be you. let’s just say it’s not out of the realm of possibility. But if you are happy to sit there refusing therapy with circular logic: you’re your own problem and all this is is you’ve found a way to self sustain that cover and you’ve convinced yourself. Fair enough. That’s your decision,
therapy is really for those who are ready to admit they are unhappy with how things are(and willing to realize they play a part in their unhappiness) and more open to tearing down those old toxic behaviours to build something more engaging that might do better at relationships .
If you don’t see yourself in that description, then you’re right. Therapy would do nothing for you.
So paying for a “friend” by the hour?
Someone’s never been to therapy!
