He’s right about one thing: There is a serious lack of actual masculinity among our leaders.
Most public figures who try to present some form of “masculinity” are just desperate and petty, willing to sacrifice nothing to earn their status, and eager to degrade others to look better by comparison.
A real man produces more than he needs, but takes only that much and ensures the rest goes to those who are less able to sustain themselves. They protect the defenseless, elevate those who are ignored, and invest in a future they won’t personally live to enjoy.
Show me a real man among you. It’s not femininity keeping you from finding one. It’s your own greed and hubris.
When I was in the military, the best Marines weren’t the ones who could lift the most or run the fastest (though sometimes they did), they were the ones who stayed up late writing up their junior Marines for awards, the ones who skipped their own lunch to teach their squad or platoon how to perform better, and just generally the ones who went out of their own way to improve everyone else’s well-being around them, and all the while keeping their mouth shut up how much they were doing for everyone else.
The whole master-apprentice thing is not really found in America anymore. It is lowkey there in academia, but there is so much admin work that even good PIs struggle. I have not really seen it in my little private industry experience. And I have no public experience to comment.
It does exist in some trades still but that’s also becoming more rare. My father was a farmer and he was always willing to be a mentor to guys he knew who wanted to get into that industry and was willing to help out his neighbor farmers if they needed help. When he died about 10 years ago, all the local farmers came out to help and they helped my family harvest his last crop at no charge to us. Wish that was the way it was in other private sector industries.
This comment makes me want to read “the way of kings” again…
Kaladin is a G. Currently on Oathbringer. I enjoy a good fantasy series, just hate when I run out of books.
there’s no such thing as a “real man”… it’s all just roles society has placed upon different genders….
Either this comment is also misogynistic as all hell, or my mother was very masculine.
Masculinity isn’t just for men. Just like femininity isn’t just for women. A healthy person has a mix of these qualities, along with many others that we don’t tend to align with a specific gender.
When I say “a real man”, I don’t mean it as an objective assessment to stick a person neatly into one of two piles. That’s not how gender works, and it’s not how being a person in general works.
What I mean is that if you’re indulging in behavior like belittling other people for fun or “cool points”, or using your power or physical strength to get what you want, and calling that “being a man”, then your idea of manhood is a mirage. If you want to aspire to something based on your male gender identity, aspire to humility, vigilance, and service to others. Those are great qualities that anyone can have, but they’re especially important for men if we’re gonna have a respectful and productive society.
(Edit: I didn’t downvote you btw. I thought your comment was pretty reasonable and mild. But I did wanna take the opportunity to elaborate, because this topic can be complex and emotionally charged. We all have a lot of baggage when it comes to gender, and it’s hard on the internet to develop rapport with each other.)
It is still misogynistic to say that women who manifest those behaviors are particularly masculine. Those are adult human behaviors.
I don’t know a lot of adult humans who behave that way of either gender.
A real man produces more than he needs
And I’m an imaginary man producing just what I need. 👻
The answer is often more complex
The answer is clearly 42i
Real men are also able to access their emotions, express their needs(both emotional and physical), develop and share empathy, and nurture deep relationships within their community.
Though i would argue none of what either of us said has to do with gender.
Relentlessly locking your own humanity away behind a strong man facade built on shame is one of the biggest reason these fuckers become so hateful and make “manliness” seem like such a putrid prospect.
There is a serious lack actual masculinity among our leaders.
The problem is many people hear these words and instantly jump to toxic masculinity. Which you’re obviously not advocating for, but neither of us are “many people”.
Masculinity has been defined as toxic by default for many.
Yup. It is in most or at least many cases.
I wish I were able to achieve even 0.01% of this, I am just born unable.
It’s ok. It’s going to suck. Real men and women could provide for you. Not that you’re not a real woman/man, but in context.
Thanks, but sadly I think there are no real men/women near me.
A real man produces more than he needs, but takes only that much and ensures the rest goes to those who are less able to sustain themselves.
A big part of the issue is men constantly being told that they are responsible for everything. So this attitude would only make the problem worse.
This is why a positive kind of masculinity also needs to reject patriarchy and capitalism.
“Producing more than you take” doesn’t have to mean money. (Though I did mean money in my original comment, cuz Zuck is a greedy monster.)
Just listening to people more than you demand to be listened to. Doing chores that you know your friends and family hate. Sharing your knowledge. Cooking. Fixing things. There are so many ways you can contribute to your group that don’t take money, and don’t even take much time.
Being financially responsible and helping people when you can is important, don’t get me wrong.
But seeing your worth in purely financial terms is really limiting and unhealthy for the individual, and also tends to create perverse hierarchies inside of families.
Those aren’t unique to men though (except your last paragraph), how is that not general advice?
I think our advice to men should be more:
“Your problems matter”
Or
“Standing on your own two feet (and autonomy) is especially important to most men, so we should change our economy to support that”
I’ve noticed most advice given to men usually boils down to more responsibility or expectation instead of actually giving them something like male specific support programs.
Right but take what you just said to it’s logical conclusion. Why should only men have those responsibilities? All you’ve really done is create a different, nicer patriarchy, that still expects men to conform to specific gender roles and still expects women to conform to specific gender roles. Consider the inverse, all the people who physically can’t produce more than they require to survive, who need additional attention or care, through no fault of their own. Can those people not be men?
You’ve described just a generally good person, and realistically you’ve described more women than you have men. The goal should be to get rid of the idea that certain responsibilities are reserved for certain genders completely.
I feel like tech and finance bros turn to the right because bad guys who think they’re good get tired of being told by educated people that they are objectively bad guys. And instead of changing, they end up seeking spaces that will reward them for being bad guys and will allow them to ignore or disparage those offering valid criticism.
If your values and your behavior doesn’t match, you have to either change your behavior or your values.
In a culture that exacerbates hierarchy, exonerates ego, and exalts control, true humility is too painful to even consider.
dude that’s awesome… it should be a meme or something…
They’re not bad, they’re just going on a neanderthal morality purge
I think this is spot on for many
Had a ex-friend who went real hard last year about feeling his masculinity has been challenged. Went deep into the manosphere language. He was extra annoying. Every convo was about how he, a white man in America, was being repressed. He started labelling random shit as masculine/feminine. Got sick this and stopped inviting him.
A few months later, I learned the divorce was finalized and he’s been sending me invites to hang with him in his bachelor pad. Nah dog you suck now.
yeah and i bet that shit was the reason for the divorce. i got a friend who lost her husband down the right wing rabbithole and now she’s processing the grief of losing someone she loved to something so goddamn stupid
You could be mixing up correlation and causation. The divorce could have happened for any number of reasons and the ensuing loneliness and alienation could have been what led the husband to seek validation in manosphere bullshit
you may be right in this specific case. when i said “i bet” i was taking a gamble. i based my gamble based on the sequencing of events i watched my friend go through. i’m sure you’re right that it’s played out the opposite direction, and that even for my friend her husband becoming authoritarian leadind to their divorce made her husband even more entrenched in that mindset.
It’s also very likely the divorce was the reason for the behavior. Getting lost in the sauce of that nonsense is a tragic but not unreasonable reaction to the trauma of divorce, or just being hurt by a woman. That ideology and the people who make money from it prey on weak, lost men for a reason. Thats what its designed to do.
This could have been me. For the longest time I was watching right wing YT channels without really realizing it because they were hiding their messaging well under legitimate critique of the movies and shows I was no longer enjoying. My girlfriend and I got into multiple arguments over this and I could tell that this was something we’d never agree on, which makes sense of course. Eventually I managed to pull myself out by unsubscribing from these channels ocne the messaging became a lot more clear (around 2021, you can probably guess why) and since then things have been much better between us and in general.
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Like I said in another comment, Cinnamontoastken is one of them. Other ones (with varied levels of “hiding their messaging”) would be:
- Critical drinker - he’s more in the camp of acting like it was a joke / satire butl it really wasn’t. Also, he made his own “good” movie which sucked ass :D
- Nerdrotic - he’s someone I turned away from very quickly, he doesn’t hide it at all and is constantly racist, bigoted and discriminatory. He kinda serves as a lightning rod for the others, as in “oh this guy is so bad but these other ones are okay”.
- Oompaville - bit of a different genre, mostly react content, he always seemed like a classic freedom lover Texan but seemed like a decent guy. Kinda went off a cliff once Trump got re-elected with his snarky comments and comment section.
- Baggage claim. Seemed like a slightly more feminist conservative but went off the deep end around the time of the election, spreading misinformation and diving into conspiracy theories about RFK and the deep state.
I’m sure there’s others but those were the ones I remember the most.
Edit: I just remembered another one, Asmongold. He’s close to being the worst one. He hides his opinions behind reaction content and video games, always acts like he’s a “neutral fencesitter” but deep down loves it that Trump won again and was full-on conspiracy clowning about covid vaccines and the election being “stolen”.
I have found the subtle messaging in tutorials for software. They’re good at hiding it.
Yeah it’s honestly insane how much of it there is. Even channels that appear to be completely innocent at first can suddenly start veering in this direction. I remember watching someone like CinnamonToastKen when I was younger and it always used to be very generic fun for everyone content. But the last few years I started catching on to him saying more and more right leaning, conspiracy theory type stuff.
He made comments about the US (where he no longer even lives) keeps giving money to Ukraine instead of fixing their own problems, the “stolen election” and of course about Trump winning again. I really don’t understand why you have to make statements like that, you (on average) alienate about half of your audience by saying stuff like that. But oh well, a quick unsub and moving on.
They may alienate half of the audience, but the other half starts dumping truckloads of money on their doorstep.
and they are locked in thanks to the power of sunk cost fallacy
It’s more like religious fervor, but later there is definitely sunk cost, or paradigm-shift lock-in.
I’m proud of you for realizing something was off and correcting course. I know how easy it is to get sucked into that garbo. I got sucked in myself when I was a young teen. I genuinely don’t remember how I pulled myself out of it, but I’m glad I did because I’m positive my life would be miserable if I hadn’t.
i’m proud of you for waking up
I bet that is really fucked up because you might spend a long, long time trying to convince yourself that he would change back or just be less of an asshole. That’s a special sort of grief where they are still living but you’re mourning who they used to be.
had ex-friend
B-b-but ToLeRaNcE!!!
Similar situation here (there is more than one situation, ofc), but wifey’s along for the ride too, and not in a trad wife way (they’re late 60s in age). Left them out of the pals’ xmas dinner because it’s become unbearable for everyone else.
It’s no fun losing decades-long relationships over whatever “this” is that’s happening.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.
What’s weird about this broader “conversation” on masculinity is I feel more masculine than ever, despite not giving a flying fuck about any of this.
I never really struggled with it except as a teen, but the older I get the less I care.
—
I still say we made a mistake with communicating to men about feminism. We kind of left people who are terrible like Andrew Tate to dominate the conversation when people shut down men’s rights groups as de facto misogynistic, and now here we are.
What’s weird about this broader “conversation” on masculinity is I feel more masculine than ever
Same. The more I read stupid quotes from the Tates and Musk’s of the world, the more I feel like I’m doing something right with how I’m living my life, raising my kiddo, and engaging with my community.
Between that and a wider understanding/acceptance of neurodivergence, I’m feeling pretty comfortable in my own skin for the first time in a long time. And I’m ready to fight for women, minorities, and the LGBTQ+ communities to feel the same way.
He started labelling random shit as masculine/feminine.
FYI: This is totally normal in France.
Any romance language country, really
TIL Klingon is not a romance language 😭
Germany woke af by having a gender-neutral pronoun already
What does that have to do with a situation that’s not in France?
It’s a joke about le vs la
I’m whooshing pretty hard because I still don’t understand what the joke is, but I’ll just assume that’s on me :)
Thanks for trying to help me understand!
French version of the article “the” changes if the noun is either feminine or masculine. Every noun in French is assigned to be masculine or feminine.
For example:
The book “le livre” would be masculine. The bookstore “la librairie” would be feminine
I do understand that, it just seems like bringing up a random fact that has no bearing on the actual discussion and seems like it’s missing some additional context to actually be funny.
But, again, totally accepting that I’m the one it’s just not clicking with :)
Thanks for trying though, my skull must just be too thick!
Dudes getting divorced and then hating women are really telling on themselves.
Is Zuck getting divorced?
I don’t think so, but don’t let that stop you from shooting your shot if your believe you can make him a happy man.
LOL I would never! Unless it’s to get close enough to et tu brutus him
Dude loves Romans that much he would die proud I think.
There has got to be better sexbot models out there.
When I think of masculine energy I sure as hell don’t think of Marky Z.
Yeah, a tom of Finland character he certainly is not. Like he’s definitely masculine, but more masculine [pejorative] in the vein of a man having a midlife crisis and deciding to get into a sad pantomime of youthful masculinity. He definitely doesn’t seem the type to do hard labor to provide for his loved ones or to spend his evenings in a shed tinkering on his projects. His masculinity is not the presence of the traits our society positively associates with men and masculinity or of those that those who are attracted to masculinity find attractive or endearing, but merely a starker absence of the positive traits associated with femininity or neutrality and an absence of the negative traits of femininity.
Love the Tom of Finland reference I bet it went over most peoples heads
Thanks, I’m a woman who has friends who are leather men so whenever I see these guys going on and on about masculine energy my mind initially goes to leather men. Because the reality is these guys don’t want masculinity for its own sake, that’s leather men, or whatever nick Offerman is doing or wherever else you see people who are masculine because they like it. These men see masculinity as a vehicle for power and staving off their fears of aging. They clearly fear that they’re insufficiently masculine and rather than asking themselves what the root cause of that insecurity is and trying to be the person they genuinely want to be (which may very well mean they take testosterone supplements and get into martial arts) they’re just going to act like a 14 year old who thinks that going full silverback will get him laid, respected, and happiness.
I recently finished the fifth book of the stormlight archive and I really respected the way it dealt with toxic vs healthy masculinity and so that’s actually something that’s just been on my mind a lot lately.
So yeah I guess I’m just not impressed by this performative Rogan style masculinity, if you want to show me how manly you are act like someone with a secure and healthy relationship with his masculinity because as a grown ass adult this Zuckerberg bs is fucking sad
Steering the helm of a massive advertising company that misleads and manipulates users does not seem masculine to me.
He seems like the type that ever since he was a kid would full on cry and make everything miserable for everyone until they just gave him his way to shut him up.
That over sized black T and gold chain is so absurd. Maybe I don’t follow enough influencers, but when did alt right culture appropriate last decade’s hip hop style?
I think what most companies actually need is more QA energy 😅
I like the thought of masculine and feminine energies wafting around like medieval miasmas.
This guy is smart.
Up next: the return of the humoral theory of medicine!
All these feminine airs have my cholera up. I’m going to go poison myself and barf a lot.
Make sure to avoid mustard!
I hope she takes half his stuff.
Maybe, but he’s damn sure cucked. Dude 100% has a chair in the corner of his bedroom facing the bed.
If he isn’t he will after this.
maybe you should start with humanoid energy you fucking lizardbot
I hate this, because the idea comes from Hermetic spirituality, but from a very cherry picked version of it that basically says “Be as shitty a person as you want, give into your natural inclinations and vices”
I know because I’ve seen this A LOT!
Because the actual Seventh Principle of Hermeticism does not say to do this, it actually says to balance the masculine and feminine within yourself to acknowledge both as being geniunely within you. It also encourages that the two shouldn’t be seen as opposites but rather two endpoints on a vast spectrum, the same way we see hot and cold.
But sadly too many “Gurus” somehow warped this into
“Reject femininity, see it as weakness, and be a massive chauvinistic asshole.”
When that couldn’t be further from what it’s saying.
So I watched the entire three hour interview.
Technically speaking, Zuckerberg emphasizes the need for balance. He on multiple times either emphasizes that both men and women should feel comfortable in corporate environments, and explicitly says something like “there has to be a balance” on at least two occasions.
The issue is that other parts of the interview don’t really match that idea of balance. Zuckerberg and Rogan spent like a third of the entire interview talking about bro culture stuff. I’m not even talking about “bro culture in the context of corporate America”. Rogan spends like a full ten minutes lecturing Zuckerberg on the proper way to bow hunt.
Overall I think the media is focusing outrage bait while ignoring the serious implications of the interview. Zuckerberg is clearly lobbying the Trump administration to prevent meta and other US tech companies from being subject to EU regulatory security. It has serious implications both as a consumer and in terms of geopolitics.
I really wish CEOs would stop and ask “If I wasn’t the CEO, would I want this regulation to exist?”
But that requires them to have empathy.
I hate outrage bait, as you pointed out it makes us blind to the REAL danger, which is… Zuckerberg trying to get out of playing by the rules.
I agree. Ironically he also went on a bit of a rant about how the traditional media outlets whittle down interviews to the most salacious bits, and that’s part of the reason the American public is slowly losing trust in them.
While the reason for him saying this is to discredit his previous perception as robotic, he’s also not wrong. All the articles I read “highlighting” the interview hyper focused on a few lines, and in doing so left and incomplete or dishonest impression.
Fuck yeah, here’s hoping she’s like MacKenzie Scott ( bezos’ ex) and takes half his money and donates it all away.
Don’t donate it, buy more politicians to do good things.
Like when trump kicks it from too many hamberders and adderall, we can buy Vance to come back to the light?
There’s a lot to choose from
He doesn’t even give off “human” energy.
Does he even give off heat?
I mean yeah he needs to cool his personality emulation chip somehow
He does when his cpu starts to overheat.
It fits his whole revamp with the judo and working out and human haircut. I assume in the near future he’ll go on Rogan and then end up launching a podcast of his own.
He was on Joe Rogan a week or two ago
That’s a bingo!
Him photoshopping on facial hair I thought was bingo for me but apparently we aren’t playing 4 corners.
I believe “shirtless photo on horseback” might be the next stage.
