And they wonder why millenials don’t have kids…
Plenty of of Generation X, too, don’t want/didn’t have kids.
According to some people who replied a comment I made, this wouldn’t affect the fertility rate. Not sure how they came to that conclusion.
But the thing I mention is that even with this barrier, the US fertility rate is bigger than most other developed countries which have paid parental leave. Of course there are other things, but this is weird for me
Inside america are two americas. One is full of people pretending this place doesn’t suck shit the other is little piggies who roll around in the shit and love it.
This makes a lot of sense since poor non industrialized places tend to have a higher fertility rate. Do you have something for me to read about it?
Thanks
There is a fascinating documentary called Idiocracy that I highly recommend.
Life Pro Tip for Americans: If you can save up for a plane ticket and go to another country. Europe would be my recommendation. It amazes me that there isn’t a mass exodus going on in the US. I don’t understand why anyone would possibly choose to live there tbh.
Good luck getting visas and residence permits.
I (Danish) am married to an American and it was easier for me to get a US green card, than for her to get a residence permit in Denmark. After living some time in the US we decided to move to Denmark and while it’s great to live here, it was a freaking painstaking process to get her a permit.
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Sure if your family came over here in the last 100 years. My family came over from Ireland somewhere around the famine, it’s too far back, I’ve checked. Y’all need to stop telling us its so easy to just move out of the us, it’s fucking not.
And even better, you’ll still owe taxes in the US when you’re gone.
IIRC, you can subtract the taxes you pay to the other country, so it’s not as if you’re double-taxed.
Honestly didn’t know that. Thanks for the info.
We are stuck here
Jesus, just make it a whites only test and be honest.
My mother is literally German and most of my family is as well, and I can prove direct lineage. But I can’t get Germany citizenship because the laws are so strict.
You’re right, Great Britain is easier for the children of Europeans, but other countries (possibly Denmark as well) are hard.
Wait. What? German citizenship is ancestry based. You should be eligible. You might need to drop the US citizenship though, but I’m not an expert.
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Could you maybe go over the process for how you got Italian citizenship? Trying to go through the process now with my fiancée and it’s… a lot (neither of us speaks Italian either).
Specifically, how did you go about requesting documents from Italy? How did you know which civil registry to request from? What if I can’t find the civil registry for the state her descendant is from?
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Oh for sure. Your EU citizenship is infinitely more valuable than my German lineage. The EU is a very sweet deal. I can’t how stupid Britain was to leave.
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As if “europe” just hands out working visas to americans
I make over $200k in a retail sales job…it’s very specialized but still retail sales. No college. I live very well here in the US. Perhaps I could move to Europe and make this sort of money with only my drive to sell, but I’d doubt it. Also family …I love my family and see them often.
And that’s what America works for some people. Money.
Maybe it’s not actually that bad living here in terms of reality?
Europe isn’t a country and it’s not always easy to just move to another country. You have to actually be desirable to have in the country to even be considered.
That’s kind of the big problem with a lot of the Americans talking about moving to Europe for benefits. They lack these benefits because their jobs aren’t specialized or well paid, and European countries aren’t likely to accept their visa applications. Outside of marrying a European national, the best path is probably collective bargaining in the states.
It amazes me that there isn’t a mass exodus going on in the US
This may blow your mind but there’s thing called “laws” that prevent Americans from simply moving to another country and living there. You need to immigrate, you need paperwork, you need a job, you need to prove to their country that you’re useful there… you know, all the things Americans do to other countries.
I mean, yes, would I like to move to Germany tomorrow? Absolutely. Can I? No, it’s not that simple.
This also ignores that since 2008 there has been a large exodus. Americans are leaving whenever they get the chance.
Also just packing up and leaving means leaving behind all your family, friends, possessions. Very probably you’ll have to practically start your career over from a much lower stage, learn a whole new language and live as an outsider in a culture you’re unfamiliar with.
In addition, the people who would most benefit (the very poor with poor paying jobs that don’t have these benefits) are the least able to do so. It’s not just a plane ticket, you need lawyers to help you navigate the process.
And the reality is that despite what social media makes it seem, America isn’t the unbearable dystopia the internet makes it out to be. Do we have problems? Abso-fucking-lutely, more than most first world countries, but not so much that it’s sensible for most to uproot their whole lives to emigrate.
My career would take a hit in Europe. Just not doing the kinda work we are doing here
As a European, I would make 3-4x in my job if I was American. Of course somethings would be more expensive (education, healthcare, housing). Personally I would be better in states. I would still not want my county to change to states, because that inequality is not good for the whole country.
For the average person, America is much better than most places in Europe.
For people who aren’t doing as well, though, it’s much worse.
If you have $20 in your pocket, and no debt you are wealthier than most Americans. The average person in the US isn’t doing too great
I don’t think that’s true at all. Your middle class percentage is tiny compared to most of Europe, and while you also earn a bit more, that money goes to a much stronger social safety net in most of Europe, too (at least in our more successful countries).
I would also wager that middle class workers are more comfortable here, because of guaranteed 5-7 weeks holiday, 37 hour work weeks (for the vast majority), guaranteed parental leave, and just generally a very unionized job market.
I think you’re vastly overestimating how well-off “average” is in the US.
middle-upper middle class in America = rich in Europe.
I took a 50% pay cut to move to Europe. I’ll probably move back.
Edit: the €200 uninsured hospital visit when I got here before my public insurance activated Was nice though. Actually finding a doctor here who can see me on a time scale not measured in Quarters is a problem though. Also drug availability for my issues is real as the public insurance doesn’t offer a lot of them. It’s still marginally better than the US and a lot cheaper but fuck me I need my medication or to see the doctor more than 3-4 times a year for them to adjust it.
Oh also the lack of AC given climate change is a huge problem. The BS about better insulation is just that. You end up roasting in an oven. The insulation and construction methods are also impossible to do modifications to without a lot of time and specialized equipment. A contractor I hired burned out their impact driver just hanging artwork. The toilets suck too and are embedded in the wall so good luck servicing them.
Upper middle class is the top 10%…So yea, 9 out of 10 people aren’t doing so great.
Low end of Middle class, 50%, is still making a good college degreed salary (masters equivalent) in Europe. Middle end is making as much as a PhD in a tech company equivalent here.
So 1 in 2 have 6 years of college equivalent income and are making more than most Europeans, and 1 in 10 are comparably rich.
Comparably a good PhD (I. E. Employable) in America can pull 120-150k relatively easily, and 200k after a few years. Making as much as 3 times the European with the same education and experience.
E: European college costs are much lower though so it somewhat depends on how much debt you have to take too.
You’re reading that article completely wrong…the numbers you posted are medians for upper income earners. The median US worker does not have 6 years of higher ed. I think only 20-30% even have a bachelor’s.
The median income in the US is 50k as of 2022. The 90th percentile is 120k-130k.
Those are disgustingly low for not having universal health or any social safety net like the rest of the industrialized world.
For me at least wait times for healthcare always seem to be shorter outside the US. Nearly 2 months for a CT scan vs same day
I had to wait 2.5 months for a simple blood test panel after seeing my doctor which took 2 months from scheduling.
In the US it was always same day at a Lab Corp outlet or on site. Cost a lot but I’d get results into the issue at least. The hospital here in Europe did a whole panel the same day I went to the ER…but my doctor didn’t want to bother getting it from them. And imaged me twice too, but again the doctor didn’t bother pulling those and ordered some months away.
I think you are confusing one European country with Europe.
Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, and Greece on the construction methods, AC, and Toliet. Haven’t been to Spain in a few years but they are suffering in the heatwave. Italy was 80+F late night last night when I was in Rome.
Healthcare wise my home region has some of the best on the continent. Perks of being the HQ of a national champion of the largest economy on the continent. If I have an emergency the hospital is very well equipped to handle patients from the nearby plants. Was more modern than any hospital I ever saw in the US.
I’ll see France in the next few months along with the Netherlands and Belgium. I’m not expecting things to be much different.
The Baltic and Nordic countries still have a mostly cold climate, so maybe things are better there, I’ll visit. In my neck of the woods it just never stops raining which has been a mixed bag.
If we want to compare incomes outside of my area than it’s even more extremely in favor of the US. I was basing my comparison on my employer’s payscales along with IG Metall (largest Union in Germany). We have some of the highest pays on the continent.
The literal only exceptions cost of living wise are cities like Munich which are comparable to NYC, LA, and SF but still cheaper from the time I’ve spent visiting it. I lived in all three of the aforementioned American cities for years.
If we want to compare incomes
What about happiness and quality of life?
Hi there. American here. I am actively learning both French and Dutch in case shit really hits the fan here in the states so I could potentially move to Europe.
Dutch here; while learning new languages is always a good thing, speaking Dutch is the least of your worries if you’d want to move here. Many expats don’t even try, since the majority of Dutchies is quite fluent in English.
If you’re serious, make sure you have job skills that are wanted over here so a company can sponsor you (and prove they cannot fulfill the vacancy). It’s basically how it works in the US too.
Or, if shit really hits the fan over there, you might be able to get a visa as a refugee :)
I agree, French and German are more useful to know in Europe as the biggest countries where one could live and be in the EU.
French is also useful because of Overseas France. Personally, I don’t necessarily want to move to Europe; I want to buy a sailboat and travel the world. French-speaking islands are relatively evenly-distributed all the way around it.
I currently speak German, Dutch, Japanese and am learning Italian… just in case (and I realised I really enjoy learning languages)
Life Pro Tip for that guy: You should understand what you’re talking about. The reason why all these European countries have these great social programs is because they actually are tough on immigration and don’t have the strain on social programs like we do. If it’s such a shithole, why are immigrants risking their lives to enter the US by any means available?
“Strain on social programs” lol.
“why are immigrants risking their lives to enter the US by any means available?” if you want to talk about mexicans, then this is only immigration they can afford.
You mean to tell me we can completely afford all the social programs we have and the country actually isn’t in debt?
You do realize there are far more nationalities than Mexican entering the country, right? I know racist hear the word immigrant, and all they think is brown people, but come on. Do better.
We could if we taxed people properly, if corrupt officials didn’t pocket the money for their own, if money didn’t get thrown down the drain on all the admin salaries, if Medicare was legally allowed to negotiate prices, and if corrupt officials didn’t give money to their company owning friends in the name of “business aids”.
Our country spends double on healthcare compared to the next country down the list and yet we have worse health outcomes. Making it illegal for Medicare to negotiate prices absolutely has something to do with that. In addition "Anderson attributes [higher prices] to consolidation among hospitals and doctors’ practices, which allows them to demand higher prices.
Despite paying higher prices, Americans actually have less access to doctors, nurses and hospital beds. There are only 2.6 practicing doctors per 1,000 people in the US, compared to a median of 3.2 active physicians in the OECD, for instance. The efforts include raising deductibles to give consumers more incentive to shop around for health care services and paying doctors and hospitals based on patients’ health outcomes rather than for every service rendered."
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/08/politics/health-care-spending/index.html
And before anyone argues that appropriately taxing the rich will make them all leave:
It’s because we’re so pro-life.
The worse the conditions a baby is born into, the better wage slave they will be
The UK only offers 2 weeks, and they are paid at a very low rate (£172 p/w). Most people I know didn’t take it, and either booked normal holiday leave or just went back to work.
That’s not quite true. The general rule for most people is that you get a year of maternity leave; the first 6 weeks are at 90% of your usual pay, then you get 33 weeks at the lower of 90% or £172.48 per week, and then the rest is on Maternity Allowance which is a lower amount again.
The two weeks rule applies only to people who otherwise aren’t entitled to maternity leave - normally this is people who are self-employed, agency workers or on a zero hours contract (although you should always check as there are exceptions to these rules that employers will try to pretend don’t exist). In that situation, everyone is entitled to two weeks maternity leave for safety reasons, or four weeks if you work in a factory.
That said, a lot of people don’t get to benefit from these rules because employers will straight up lie to employees about what they’re entitled to, and rely on employees either not checking for themselves, or being too scared of losing their job to insist on getting what they’re entitled to. If you’re ever in this position, you should absolutely contact Citizens Advice - they know the rules inside out and will be happy to help remind your employer of their obligations, and also of what happens to employers who are found to retaliate or discriminate against employees who are pregnant or new mothers.
I should add to that another point: in a more white collar fields companies in the UK compete for employees (among other parts of benefits package) with the terms they offer for maternity cover, and many will provide many months, at least 6, of fully paid leave.
The UK only offers 2 weeks
In the UK you get up to 52 weeks of maternity leave. Of which 39 weeks is paid, the first 6 weeks of which is at a rate of 90% of your salary. The £172 is then the pay for the remaining 33 weeks. It can be shared with a partner.
Let’s see $1 million medical bills, no health insurance, no paid medical leave, no consumer protection laws, trans genocide attempts, corporations are “people,” a minimum wage of $7.25 and much more.
Is it rich for like three people?
They said “rich country”, not “a country of rich people”.
Can we make that 4? 🥺👉👈
30 states require minimum wage higher than the federal requirement
4 states plus DC have minimum wage over $15/hr
This means nothing if Republicans take power again
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I liked when Biden finally decided to suspend the military budget for the next 5 years, seeing as the U.S. is already operating a behemoth of an army no one dares confront. So the $5 trillion dollars they will now redirect to the public over the next 5 years is going to make a monstrous wave of positivity for the US for decades to come. /s
wtf is a “rich nation”?
Non-communist
wouldn’t parental leave be a socialist policy?
Nations with strong socialist policies can be still capitalist. See the EU.
The no vacation nation.
A truly inhuman capitalist nightmare of a country.
Yep, and given my experience talking with other US citizens about universal healthcare, they’ll argue how it’s some how a bad thing. It’s just a reoccurring thing, people seem to be programmed to hate stuff that’d help them.
Tbf, universal healthcare sucks when it’s done poorly. Does anybody really trust the US government with our healthcare?
More than I trust Aetna.
Do you trust a company that is required to provide profit to their shareholders by providing you the least possible amount of healthcare?
Health insurance in the US is very complicated. It’s a feature, not a bug. They don’t want you to use it.
Oh, but government death panels. Have you ever had to get a pre-authorization for care that would save your life? Or had a claim denied because that one person that was in the operating room while you were under anesthesia was out of network? Yeah, it’s actually corporate death panels.
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Fuck liberals, but maybe you can get the point across without the ableism?
People choose to be liberal, those of us who are mentally ill didn’t.What? Are you Scott Adams?
The right are the ones against things that would help us.
I don’t know who Scott Adams is, but googled it. I am no racist.
It’s just funny, you say sth. against the stupid and inhuman liberalism in the USA and suddenly some idiot comes and says sth. stupid. That’s what I meant - it’s a mental illness.
And yes, the other people here are right. There is no left in the USA and it shows. It’s just right-wing or more right-wing.
Trying to read in good faith, maybe the user meant to refer to (right wing) Libertarianism or neoliberalism.
Back before “liberal” became the preferred slur the American right could say in public, they would often seek to brand their ideology as liberalism in order to draw legitimacy from the high standing of classic liberalism. Libertarianism has liberal roots, it just blows a single element (freedom from state intervention) completely out of proportions.
Academically, the father of Libertarianism (Robert Nozick) makes for a fun and interesting read, but he was torn to shreds by John Rawls (and, in my opinion and less famously, Michael Otsuka). If I remember correctly he ended up abandoning his own theory. Still it seems to have a particular appeal to Americans and their obsession about the self made man, property rights, and private wealth accumulation.
Still oddly doing the lifting for the republicans.
They don’t care for nuance.
They’ll use your hatred for your liberals to hate americas left.
Sucks that EU has the tankie problem, but with all due respect, quit your bitching. I wish that was the form of fascism I had to worry myself with.
The America right is murdering the American left.
We are not the same.
Solidarity forever, am I right?
Liberal means just freedom. BS about freedom only from state intervention was invented by capitalism.
I mean, there is no left in America. It’s far right or center at best.
For fucks sake.
This is why; you.
You and the other clones.
Serving the Republic(ians)
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We’re all neo-liberal on this blessed day!
Where’s the difference between neo-liberalism and liberalism? For me there is none. It’s the same, only the historical context is different.
There are three main types of “liberalism” that generally exist in Western democracies, and each of them is quite distinct.
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Classical liberalism - emphasizes individual freedom, limited government intervention in the economy, and the protection of natural rights, such as life, liberty, and property.
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Neoliberalism - emphasizes free markets, deregulation, privatization, and reduced government intervention in the economy.
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Social Liberalism - combines the values of individual freedom with a belief in the role of government in addressing social and economic inequalities through healthcare, education, and welfare programs.
Typically these days, especially in the US, most people think of #3 when they hear the word “liberal” in a political sense, I’d say.
I’m ok with this. Thx.
#2 is basically corporate dictatorship
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Americans seem to think that as long as you support LGBT+ issues, it’s leftist to have hospitals, roads, schools, and the rest of society run by corporations for profit.
I wish😔
You know fascism is not the only alternative to liberalism. Liberalism is a center-right ideology in most of the developed world - even the American politicians fascists use as Boogeymen are mostly Social Democrats not liberals.
The liberal parties generally used to be the left wing back in the day, promoting basic human rights and universal suffrage against the capitalists on the right wing seeking to keep up the pace of exploitation.
When the socialists came along they placed themselves on the left of the liberalists, eventually rendering the old school liberal parties somewhere between the centre and the right. In America the two party system kept this from happening, which is why people complain that there’s no true left in the US.
However, the socialists are also split. Social democrats tend to hold Locke in one hand and Marx in the other, embracing both socialist and liberal values. This is often to the disgust of the ideologically pure Communists, as it’s hard to be a Lockean without accepting a degree of property rights that they find unbearable.
If you give up liberalism you generally slide very fast towards authoritarianism, be it on the left or on the right. It’s possible to imagine a non-liberal non-authoritarian society; it’s just very hard to imagine actually getting there.
If you are pro capitalism, you’re on the right, no matter what you call yourself or how much you try and cling to past definitions of words, it’s as simple as that.
Also fuck horseshoe theory and this idea that “extreme left” is authoritarian (when authoritarianism is incompatible with leftist thinking on every level. This means tankies aren’t on the left no matter how hard they protest) - one extreme wants you to be a literal slave to a capitalist dictator, the other wants you to have everything you need and be able to work towards a better society instead of for the benefit of like 10 people.
Try actually learning about liberalism and the harm it causes before you somehow go blaming (actual) socialists (seriously?? The people who have never even been allowed to come close to power???) for the state of politics:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
https://blacklikemao.medium.com/how-liberalism-helps-fascism-d4dbdcb199d9
I never said I’m pro capitalism. :)
Somewhere in the world there is a country with personalistic resource autocracy, where autocrat and his minions are strong pro-corporate, pro-censorship and against pensions, universal healthcare and net neutrality. Far right autocracy not only exists, but even started war.
You’re right, liberalism was left-wing a long time, ago. But this liberalism is gone, long time ago. You won’t find it anymore. That has no connection with socialism at all.
If you read Marx, which indead you didn’t, you would say different things. The socialists didn’t try to fight liberalists, they just tried to explain to them why their views are wrong in some parts. This split the whole movement, but not because the socialists were wrong. It split, because the liberalists were naive and believed their own bullshit.
Sorry, my english is very bad, but I also think it is very wrong to split communism and liberalism with the word authoritarianism. Communists want more freedom than liberalists can imagine. Their view is not focused on money and the system. And if they are stricter in their actions, than it’s only because they’ve learned that words are not enough. You have to fight people, who are against the true freedom of all people.
I’ll give you one point - Communists indeed don’t tend to aim for authoritarianism. Even Marxist-Leninists claim it’s just a necessary step along the way - the final society will be complete freedom.
I said as much in my comment - I just also pointed out the historical fact that efforts to implement a communist society without liberal ideals tends to slide towards authoritarianism real quick. China and the Soviet Union did not end up characterised by “more freedom than liberals can imagine”.
Brave of you to make assumptions what I’ve read and not.
Even Marxist-Leninists claim is just a necessary step along the way
false
efforts to implement a communist society without liberal ideals tends to slide towards authoritarianism real quick. China and the Soviet Union did not end up characterised by “more freedom than liberals can imagine”.
China is a capitalist hellhole, and the Soviet Union never achieved communism, and using it as an example of what communism is is like using North Kore as an example of what a People’s Republic is.
I second how glaringly obvious it is that you’ve not read much of anything to do with communism at all that’s outside of the realm of mainstream propaganda. You can protest all you like, but your views speak for themselves.
There’s South Korea and Taiwan.
China is pretty much “capitalism with beast grin”
I am sure you didn’t read Marx and if you did, you did not enough.
It’s hard to implement socialism, if it never was tried. You have only one try and if this try fails you have huge problems, cause everything is suddenly gone and than you have slavery, hunger etc. back. And also, if you try to build socialism, suddenly a lot of people are against you. You have to struggle with more problems, than you imagined. And that’s important to understand. You are suddenly enemy with everyone. Look at the russian civil war - they had to fight against several countries, even the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War It’s just crazy. And if you have to fight against several countries than people tend to ignore this and instead they’re saying “See, it doesn’t work.”.
So, yeah, you’re right, communists tend to authoritarianism, but not because they want to. They tend to it, because they have to. There is no choice.
Fox News is a helluva propaganda tool
It’s been making our citizens dumber since 1996
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Maternity leave, heh, we don’t even get paid enough to get off welfare.
ITT: People who have never lived in a third world country
Problems are still problems no matter where you live.
Please let me clarify. If a person has never lived in a third world country but they use the term disparagingly as if they know exactly what it’s like, it’s not precise. America’s problems are bad, problems anywhere are problems yes, but to label a country like America with a term like that? It shows a lack of awareness and frankly (but without offense), it’s perceived that people stretch the term to make a snazzy remark.
Out of curiosity who was using the third world country term disparagingly? I couldn’t find anything in the comments or the article? I know people often misunderstand the first world, second world and third world terms I’m just seemingly missing that here?
EDIT: Never mind my comment searching skills weren’t very good. :)
If you’re going to be this pedantic about the use of a term, then you should know that you’re talking about a developing country. And that the usage of the term “third world” at this point is inherently disparaging because it’s deviated from the original meaning to be used in exactly the context you’re complaining about. Because the term “third world country” in its original context has nothing to do with economic status, position in global politics, or large scale national problems it was originally used in context to their position in WW2. It only exists in that connotation as a derogatory term.
I don’t know about derogatory. Language evolves and changes, and at some point the term ‘third world’ entered common usage as being equivalent to ‘developing nations’. I remember being in primary school 30 years ago and the term was used that way, and definitely not in a derogatory sense.
There’s an inherent negative connotation with third world, and that’s why usage is transitioning to developing. If it didn’t have a negative connotation, a softer term wouldn’t be necessary.
FWIW California at least allows new fathers to take 12 weeks paternity leave. My company normally only offers 4 weeks of paid paternity leave, but my coworker managed to get 12 by living in California. I believe he only got paid for 4 weeks of it since I don’t think the rule requires employers to pay the whole thing, but at least he got a lot of time off to help his wife and bond with his new son.
In the UK I’m coming to the end of my 20weeks paid parental leave (admittedly this is generous, but still not crazy).
The US sounds awful.
My sister wasn’t even fully healed by the 12-week mark after her firstborn. Fortunately we live in Canada and have 12 months parental leave at 55% salary and jobs are protected. It’s inhumane to force new mothers back to work so soon or basically face unemployment.
In California, the state pays you the remainder of your time off after your company has fulfilled their initial contribution. California bases it on a 3 month average from a past point, pays you that tax free (although you do need to pay federal taxes on it).
Yep. I was pushed to get back to work a single day after my daughter was born.
But it’s fine, I get my revenge on him monthly. Hope it was worth it for him.
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One of the wealthiest? Like seriously?! 🤣 You guys are in debt so much that you can barely pay your interests. The only way to get out of the debt will be to win a war or debase your currency. Billionaires don’t count cause they don’t give a shit about the common man…
It’s already been debased 3000% which is, quite frankly, rookie numbers.
