One Woman in the Justice League
Just one woman, maybe two, in a team or group of men.
Also watch Jimmy Kimmel’s "Muscle Man’ superhero skit - “I’m the girly one”
The Avengers:
In Marvel Comics:
“Labeled “Earth’s Mightiest Heroes,” the original Avengers consisted of Iron Man, Ant-Man, Hulk, Thor and the Wasp. Captain America was discovered trapped in ice in The Avengers issue #4, and joined the group after they revived him.”
5 / 6 original members are male. Only one is female.
Modern films (MCU):
The original 6 Avengers were Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Hawkeye, and Black Widow.
Again, 5 / 6 original members are male. Only one is female.
Justice League
In DC comics:
“The Justice League originally consisted of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman”
6 / 7 original members are male. Only one is female.
In modern films (DCEU):
The members were/are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, Cyborg. (+ introducing Martian Manhunter (in Zack Snyder’s Justice League director’s cut))
5 / 6 main members in both versions of the Justice League film are male, with appearances by a 7th member in the director’s cut who is also male. Only one member is female.
The Umbrella Academy (comics and show)
7 members:
- Luther (Number One / Spaceboy)
- Diego (Number Two / The Kraken)
- Allison (Number Three / The Rumor)
- Klaus (Number Four / The Séance)
- Five (Number Five / The Boy)
- Ben (Number Six / The Horror)
- Vanya (Number Seven / The White Violin) Later becomes known as Viktor and nonbinary in the television adaptation after Elliot Page’s transition but that’s not really relevant to this.
Here, 5 / 7 original members are male. Only two are female. Only slightly better than the other more famous superhero teams, and they had to add another member (compared to Avengers’ 6 members) to improve the ratio (maybe executives still demanded to have 5 males).
Now let’s look at some sitcoms and other stories.
It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia:
4 males, and 1 female slightly less prominent character who is abused constantly. The show claims to be politically aware and satirical but gets away with a lot of misogynistic comedy, tbh, that I’m willing to bet a lot of people are finding funny for the wrong reasons.
Community:
Jeff, Britta, Abed, Troy, Annie, Pierce, Shirley. This one is a little better, 3/7 are female. Notice it’s always more males though, they never let it become more than 50% female, or else then it’s a “chick flick” or a “female team up” or “gender flipped” story. And of course the main character, and the leading few characters, are almost always male or mostly male.
Stranger Things:
Main original group of kids consisted of: Mike, Will, Dustin, Lucas, and El (Eleven). 1 original female member, who is comparable to an alien and even plays the role of E.T. in direct homage. When they added Max, I saw people complaining that although they liked her, there should be only one female member. 🤦
Why is it ‘iconic’ to have only one female in a group of males? Does that just mean it’s the tradition, the way it’s always been? Can’t we change that? Is it so that all the men can have a chance with the one girl, or so the males can always dominate the discussion with their use of force and manliness? Or so that whenever the team saves the day, it’s mostly a bunch of men doing it, but with ‘a little help’ from a female/a few females (at most), too!
It’s so fucked up and disgusting to me I’ve realised. And men don’t seem to care. I’m a male and this is really disturbing to me now that I’ve woken up to it. How do women feel about this? Am I overreacting?
I actually have a person in my life complain about this shit with the last Bond movie (I havent watched it, i just heard complaining). Oh and Into the Spiderverse, he disliked spiderman being non-white - even though Peter Parker is in that fucking film. He also uses the phrase woke all the time.
I really don’t value his opinions on these sorts of issues and neither should anyone. He’s got so little in his life and these stories are a powerful escape from the shit he isn’t dealing with. I won’t go into it, not my circus etc.
Basically, he likes to imagine himself as Luke Skywalker and he can’t imagine himself as Rey so she’s woke and bad. It’s a boring way of consuming media and he’s an idiot. He says there’s an agenda but can self identify the agenda is maybe letting the women and coloured people be on screen sometimes. However, they do not look like him so they are bad and the agenda is bad.
They’re not worth listening to.
It’s sad that those people make discourse over actual criticism so hard.
Rey is a wonderful example here. Your acquaintance dislikes Rey because she’s a woman. I (and a bunch of other people) dislike Rey because she’s terribly written. If you exchanged her for a man he would still be terribly written. But of course, that legitimate criticism is often lumped in with people crying „woke“ at the sight of a female protagonist.
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because many people are uncomfortable with change and having women suddenly appearing more frequently thatn their use to upsets them. You’ll find this fear of the unknown a very common source of much stupidity.
You’re not over reacting. It is that fucked up. welcome to the insanity.
I don’t really talk to anybody
I think it’s cool, but I also really like strong women so…
A while ago, I read a sociology or social psychology study about children and how they were given attention by their teacher at school. The sample was like a bunch of 9yo, 50% girls, 50% boys.
It showed that when the attention given was like 30% for girls, 70% for boys, boys would feel the girls were given unfairly high and constant attention.
The way they’re educated by their parents and, more potently maybe, society as a whole.
Bit like how when women reach a threshold of 30% ‘airtime’ the perception is that they’re taking up over half of it. https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/adam-grant-communication-gender.html
In a word: Insecurity.
It’s not like they’d feel any safer with female superheroine.
Depends on show type you choose. If you watch a series like Deep Water or DeadLoch its all woman driven stories, and minor roles for men. If you pick a superhero genre that has been male dominated forever, it is going to be mostly men still.
It didn’t even occur to me that Deadloch is mostly about women, even though that shouldn’t be surprising, given who made it.
I had a similar revelation after I played through Forspoken. I assumed it would be a target for the anti-woke brigade since the protagonist is a black woman, but it was only after finishing it clicked that every character of consequence is a woman (with one exception I won’t mention for spoiler reasons).
If the story keeps you invested, genders are pretty irrelevant. I think genre expectations can shift if we don’t draw attention to them.
I think genre expectations can shift if we don’t draw attention to them.
If the story keeps you invested, genders are pretty irrelevant.
This^ When the director/writer throws in a woman’s role to try to appeal to everyone while not actually adding to the story it just comes off as a cheap ploy.
I think Dr. Who fell into this trap. Story about a man who travels through time and is reborn as a man for 60 years of TV, suddenly is reborn as a woman ( to fulfil inclusion of women as main character). Their ratings tanked. Not because Jodie Whittaker was terrible, but because the story was altered with no addition of anything better.
I think the doctor regenerating into a woman for no reason is fine-- timelords change when they regenerate, after all. There shouldn’t need to be a reason to regenerate into a woman, like there shouldn’t need to be a reason to regenerate into someone with different types of hair.
It was a change to satisfy something outside of the world they were in–to satisfy a check box in our world. It is just an example of badly handled “add women” to a plot.
I do agree many genres are under represented by women as main role or important roles, and I totally enjoy stuff that is different that the Hollywood Schlock that gets produced. But it should be true women characters and stories, not just a cut and paste role.
Bad writing is to blame for most of the criticism I think. They are just point scoring if they push a female lead because it’s a female lead. Shitty male leads are pushed constantly but the criticism of them is often ignored because the pedestal is often lower. I couldn’t give a fuck about anything Kevin hart or Dwayne Johnson is in for instance, same with plenty of other badly written male characters. Well written characters do more for films/tv than any shoehorning ever could.
The core complaint is for femwashed stories, where the male lead has been replaced by a woman.
It’s very similar to Hollywood movies taking movies from Japan or China and then turning the Asian lead to a Euro-American.
The level of hatred for this type of content is very strong as it feels like a farce or fraudelent, like someone is trying to sell you a fake designer brand item. Everything that made the item great is absent in the fake one.
On top of that, there’s a clear fascist takeover in the US from the rainbow liberal, evangelical and social capitalists. Fascists have weird superiority and inferiority complexes including towards women. But don’t worry, Chinese movies will become popular soon, so both sides of the US political aisle will have to adjust.
As also a man, I don’t know any person in real life that complain about women in movies.
I only see it online in spaces that I avoid because those places are generally speaking transphobic misogynistic echo chambers. I would argue those places are also misandristic, by creating a place were you have to follow the doctrine, but it is very different to the active hatred towards women.
So I think the answer is “insecure hateful men will hate on anything that they were told is their enemy.”
I have explored misandristic spaces online as well. And unsurprisingly, you see the same general behavior. So I really think generally it is true that:
People like to have an enemy and they like to be told who is that enemy and then they mindlessly hate even to their disadvantage and beyond. Once the social cost has to be paid, they feel validated and jump deeper into the abyss.
And where is that hatred coming from? Gamer gate, which made feminist hating popular, which made hating “the left” popular, which made anything anti-“woke” popular. As the source is based in a profession focussed on maximizing engagement, the need to generate “new” “shocking” Events was big. Therefore any gay character was a scandal and obviously with the questionable attempt to seem humane of e.g. Disney, aka adding diversity, these “new” “shocking” events were any kind of diversity. (Sidenote: diversity yay!!! Corporate diversity program just tend to be rather questionable) As the degenerate hate mob had its target to mindlessly hate, they looked for any excuse to hate anything "woke"™©® and “strong female characters” have to had been a feminist propaganda Tool and not a normal character type in movies for at least a couple decades, so they mindlessly hate that now. I would love to say “as they do anything for a treat of their master” but there is no treat, there is just the self-induced pain of hatred.
And why gamer gate? I guess right-wing Propaganda worked on a group of people who were still afraid/annoyed to be the ones to blame for e.g. violence. remember the whole “video games make you a school shooter” nonsense?
You’re really narrowing down a much much bigger issue to try and make it digestible. But the patriarchy is systemic. Misogyny is systemic. Male privilege is systemic. Gamergate is a symptom, and honestly, a mild one at that.
I don’t disagree with anything you said.
I describe what I believe to be the reason why there is any attention on it. There are many many ways for hate mobs to express their hatred. So my focus was on why is there their attention.
I mean their hatred is expressed in many ways but e.g. they seem quite focused on e.g. POC in movies (especially Disney movies).
I don’t accept the premise of the question. People don’t complain about female led movies, as long as those movies are well written. What people complain about (and this should include people looking for increased female representation) is projects that prioritise having female leads over having good writing.
Take the trend of gender swapped existing male characters into female ones. If, as a writer, you’re prepared to follow through on that concept and explore how it changes the story, then it can be interesting. A chance to experiment with the differences in motivation between genders and how obstacles can be navigated in different ways.
If you’re just going to swap “he” for “she” in the script and call it a day… Well that’s boring and doesn’t deserve anyone’s time. It’s not interesting or clever. In fact it’s often bad take. You can end up with a woman on screen showing that to be a hero they have to display hyper-masculine traits. How is that a good female role model?
I prefer it when the gender doesn’t matter, and that the hero doesn’t need to prove anything to the audience. They’re just well-written and we’re invested in their motivations and the wider story around them.
A good example of this is the excellent She-Ra cartoon. I can’t think of many good examples beyond that sadly…
Ellen Ripley’s gender doesn’t matter until Resurrection, which isn’t the highlight of the movie.
A lot of media have strong female characters but their gender or sex does matter for the story so can’t easily be replaced
Susan in the book Soul Music (plus some others) as well as the Witches, Tiffany Achings and more from Pratchett
Death from Sandman (even though the author is very controversial, but you could check the books out from sources that doesn’t give him a kick back)
Was a long time since I read them but the Polgara books feature a strong female protagonist
We got classic youth/kids media that shows strong female characters even if some stuff are coloured by weird takes (Such as Xander Harris): Xena, Buffy and Pippi Longstockings
Oh true – Alien did it pretty good
I do find cartoons the best examples here. Pippi Långstrump is an interesting choice since I think that’s aimed primarily at girls, but PepperAnn did it pretty well with an ambiguous audience. Daria (arguably, though she’s a bit of a toxic character). Kim Possible maybe? Again probably mostly aimed at valley girls, but the show was interesting enough that anyone could watch it.
Books wise, plenty of examples. Lyra, Matilda, Anne of Green Gables, etc.
I think issue is just hollywood. They pander to the lower common denominator which tends to be alpha males looking to justify their existence
At least when I grew up in the late 80s and 90s both boys and girls read the books and watched the movies with Pippi.
I agree that Hollywood is a blight on the cultural landscape, and you basically have to disregard their movies if you want to find something deeper than a puddle, with exceptions few and far between
Ripley being a woman didn’t matter much in the first film. It’s crucial to her character in the second. It’s her maternal instincts that drive her protection of Newt and that drive her into direct conflict with the alien queen.
The final battle is two mothers fighting for their children.
You can make an argument for it mattering in the first film as well, but that starts examining the film from a lense of Ash, Weyland Yutani, and the Xenomorph being metaphors for the patriarchy.
Eh, the character was written as “Ripley”, sex unspecified. IIRC none of the characters had their gender written into the screenplay and it was intentional.
I saw that as parental instinct since protection of young are not gender coded, but you can read it as maternal for sure as a mirror to the Queens hatred after the egg burning
It’s more explicit in the directors cut when you learn of her own daughter’s fate.
I mean, there is definitely a crowd that don’t like women as lead characters. While not directly related to movies, just see how a bit of peach fuzz on Aloy upset people when they showed off the new Horizon game. And that’s not a poorly written game or character.
Something like Captain Marvel does suit your argument; a poorly written character and movie, so people who criticise it get lumped in with the “women are bad” crowd. But there definitely are people who just hate things that put women in the spotlight.
Edit: fix shockingly poor grammar and spelling.
To prove this point, The Marvels was received better than Captain Marvel, and it had 3x as many women in leading roles
I personally think Ms Marvel is the best disney+ marvel show and I’m a white guy.
It was good, had a vibe that very few other shows did.
I mean, there is definitely a crowd that don’t like women as lead characters…
There are always crazies, but I don’t think that’s a large number of voices. I seriously think that most people just want well written characters that are true to themselves and the situation and don’t give a shit if its a man / a woman / black person / white person / pig or sentient blob of jelly.
Don’t overthink it.
It’s because they’re pussies.One of the ways i select a movie or series is by watching the poster. That tells me enough about whether it will be about male heroes and (maybe) female sidekicks or mothers in the kitchen. Particularly american ones have a lot of those movies. So, these i will not even try to watch anymore.
I don’t think there’s a significant amount of people that complain about women led movies. Certainly not enough to just say “men” as a group.
Probably it’s just a low quality ragebait post. Because I also don’t think that there’s a significant amount of people that believe that “men” don’t like female led movies, first example that comes to mind is Kill Bill, most if not al men I know love that movie.
Edit: Funnily enough, I’ve been thinking and I don’t think Kill Bill would pass a reversed Bechdel test: “two man talking to each other and the subject is not a woman”. As there are little conversations between two man in the movie and probably most of them refer to the protagonist. Still a widely loved movie.
