As much as I hate Elon, this is a terrible idea. Cheap Chinese trash mobiles built by Uyghur slave labor are not the answer.
How about we build cars in Canada instead?
Except they aren’t trash, they’re better than Teslas that’s for sure.
That’s what my friend in NZ told me too, they’re really good, better or the same as Tesla.
Except they aren’t trash, they’re better than Teslas that’s for sure.
It’s possible to be trash and also better than Tesla…
That’s a low fucking bar lol
They are still data hungry, surveillance machines that are allways online and gps tracked. We need cars without that kinda shit built in.
There has been talks about forcing Chinese cars to come over disconnected. Every new car is a surveillance machine. The western brands will not be asked to disconnect anything and it will probably be illegal to do so yourself, so Chinese cars might be an actual win in that regard.
exactly like their US counterparts though
American car company secretly send your driving data to your insurance company so they can squeeze more out from you for any minor reason they see fit. There’s no reason canada insurance company won’t do that. Scared about chinese car collecting your data is kinda missed the point, you should have stronger data protection instead.
I’de rather China have my data than an company over here. What are they gunna do with it that would affect me?
Correlation attacks, China is king of hoovering up data.
Overly dramatic example: you are in the armed forces, you have a TikTok account, you post a bunch of shit that shows you are in the armed forces. You get deployed for some covert fuckabout and are told to leave your phone at home. You turn off your phone, pick up 3 of your buddies in your Chinese EV and drive to the base/airport/sea port. Dozens of people do this and by seeing the pattern China knows that a bunch of armed forces are being told to quietly deploy.
A less dramatic example might be figuring out where politicians are by knowing where their employees are.
Nobody hoovers up more data than the US.
Remember when Elon remotely unlocked that cybertruck recently and accessed the cameras?
Nobody hoovers up more data than the US.
The US can’t even unlock an iPhone without calling in 3rd parties. EVERY Chinese made device collects data, and every Chinese business gives full access to the Chinese government. The US government does collect data but it’s no where near the scale of the Chinese.
Remember when Elon remotely unlocked that cybertruck recently and accessed the cameras?
He unlocked a device made by a company he owns, running software they designed on a network they operate. All that shows is that Tesla’s vehicles are not properly secured and remote access can be abused by Tesla employees.
We have roughly three million ways to say “US bad” right now, and you pick a less than true one.
US government data collection is not on the scale of China. The US is limited in what it gets from companies. China is absolutely not.
Yes, the US should absolutely have more data protection laws. The EU is better. China is absolutely not.
False
Why would I give a shit about China knowing about where murderers are?
Hello, ml.
that’s exactly what got us in this mess in the first place.
What mess? American Imperialism / Capitalism imploding on itself?
A foreign power having far, far too much control over our economic possessions. Information is a resource; what they do with it is inconsequential, we have to stop giving it away to people simply because they’re our ‘trade partners’ right now.
So a direct consequence of Usamerican capitalism/Imperialism, got it.
What are they gunna do with it that would affect me?
Use it as blackmail if we ever end up in a war against them
My toenail clippings are better than Teslas.
Build cars in Germany, Japan, South Korea and the like. focus on something non car you can sell to them in return. You can do anything but not everything.
Building cars is something we already do in Canada. And there’s currently a lot of capacity coming online to build electric cars. Pretty much the entire car could be sourced from Canadian parts, including the batteries. I think semi-conductors are the only thing that doesn’t have a domestic source right now.
Sedans please.
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
Do you have any substantial sources, to objectively prove your claims? I’ve never seen anything convincing.
I’m not intending to simp for China. They are authoritarian. But I’m also not going to fall for propaganda especially if it’s false. The USA has a motive for making the masses hate China.
Oh boy, genocide denial.
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Why would organisations who aren’t scared to criticise the west and have a really good track record like anmety intl and HRW make the suffering of the Uyghur people up?
It’s really fucking hard for me to understand why many people have so much trouble accepting both China/Russia and the West are heavily unethical. There’s no magic place that does everything ethically, and I don’t know why we’re refusing to acknowledge the cultural genocide of a large population, leading to extreme suffering for hunderds of thousands, because it criticises one country. It doesn’t matter who did it, it absolutely is awful, and we shouldn’t be denying it. Denying it only compounds the extreme suffering the population faces.
It’s so weird to me that people who defend China’s treatment of Uyghurs turn it into a US vs China thing. You can look through my recent history and find me saying that Biden, Harris, and everyone in Congress who clapped for Netanyahu have committed genocide and can rot in hell. Trump, of course, is even worse. This isn’t a “muh both sides bad enlightened centrism” thing because this isn’t a “sides” issue to begin with. Three of the four major superpowers on Earth right now are authoritarian hellholes, and the EU is on its way to joining them with its shift toward neo-Nazism.
If China is authoritarian and censors all information that makes China look bad, and spreads propaganda to other countries that those Governments are spreading propaganda to make China look bad and China isn’t actually bad, does it matter what is motivating the US to say “China Bad” when they objectively are?
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
This is denial, plain and simple.
It is not everyone else’s job to provide this ignoramus sources on the facts of the matter when we are all communicating on the internet where those facts can be found. Especially when no source can possibly be good enough when “they haven’t seen anything convincing yet” even though everyone but China and their allies are saying the same damn thing, including people who have fled China, and they are only referencing US sources.
Let’s use some simple logic here, bub.
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I don’t think that being uninformed is denying genocide and I think it’s antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any of us to treat it as if it is.
I don’t think deleting the parent comment so context is lost is good practice. I think it is antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any one who wants to keep up with the conversation.
But you did it anyways. Like how OP explicitly denied a genocide is happening.
Both things happened, and that’s a fact.
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What they were doing was textbook sealioning. This information is right there for anyone to find and has been for years.
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linking wikipedia is providing an enormous list of sources and summaries
at this point, the uighur issue is the bullshit asymmetry principal: it’s been proven time and time again and anyone asking for “sources” isn’t arguing in good faith: they’re relying on the fact that asking for sources takes thousands of times less energy than countering
so that’s what you get: a massive list of pre-prepared sources
*edit: and if you’d have actually read the article you posted, the UNHRC didn’t vote against the motion because they thought there was nothing to investigate: they voted against it to “avoid alienating china”
The majority of UN countries are on their side, Muslim majority countries included.
And claiming “U.N. body rejects debate on China’s treatment of Uyghur Muslims in blow to West” means a majority of countries on their side is just dishonest. China has a massive economy and is able to put political pressure on plenty of nations in the UN.
This would be like saying America has never pressured another nation into voting for something in the UN.
I think even the countries that abstained are on their side.
They’re obviously being pressured to be on that side but all of the UNSC veto holders do that. The veto power shouldn’t exist because this is what happens. Veto holders are allowed to bully whoever they want with no meaningful consequences.
even the countries that abstained are on their side.
What do you mean by on their side? Are you saying they don’t believe human rights violations happened, are you saying they are just politically aligned with China, or that worried about political backlash from China?
They’re not willing to stand up to an obvious bully and push for further investigation. Closer to your second and third statements than the first. With the third being the most likely.
I do understand how my first comment could be misunderstood now though.
There is plenty of evidence widely available from organizations like human rights watch and amnesty international. Claims that deny any evidence exist of the persecution of China’s Muslim population rely on logical fallacies to attempt to obscure the validity of the body of evidence. Namely ad hominem attacks against the individual who first gathered the evidence to begin with.
While the researcher obviously has biased opinions about the CCP, that doesn’t affect the validity of the evidence gathered, most of which comes directly from publicly available information released by the CCP itself, or from leaked internal communication from party members that have been widely verified by reputable journalists and organizations specializing in human rights violations.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
Simply looking at publicly available census data releases by the CCP we can tell that Uyghur people are being driven from culturally important sites that are being replaced by ethnically Han Chinese, and that Uyghur populations have been shrinking at a worryingly abnormal rate.
If we look at recent history of ethnic conflict within China in tibet, Manchuria, and inner Mongolia, I fail to see why it’s logical to assume that the accusations of crimes against humanity is pure propaganda.
Han chauvinism is well documented, and even Mao Zedong spoke about how it would negatively affect the future of the party. Ethnic conflict/cleansing has been a constant in the region and is part of the foundational history of modern China.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region, while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians. That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians.
I wasn’t aware it was a competition? Human rights violations should be criticized no matter who’s doing it.
That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
Again… I’m not the American government. I am very critical of the US governments involvement with many genocides throughout history. I am also very critical of any government who participates in similar human rights violations, because I’m not a massive hypocrite.
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
Hard proof of all of that has never been produced. Contrary facts exist for all your points.
What do you consider hard proof?
As I said, most of the information used has been verified by independent reporters or human rights organizations.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
What else could you possibly want?
secret papers can’t be hard proof. Neither is a photo of what may be a prison. There are extremely weak documentaries trying to hype up “re-education”, but the US pledge of allegiance would be equivalent indoctrination.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
at the risk of whataboutism, you have Israel engaged in genocidal mass murder on video. Politics of shit talking China is far more important than any objective principle of oppression.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
There is genuine context/exaggeration to all of these points. Demographics and income specifically show Xinxiang doing better than average in China.
Oh I think you registered on the wrong instance
Hexbear is what you’re looking for, this way most of us won’t see your comments.
Yes. It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region. The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS. The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region.
America said the same thing when they forced assimilation on the native population after stealing their land.
The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS.
Again, your only defense to actual evidence is just logical fallacy. You aren’t making any argument in good faith.
The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
I actually admire a lot about the Chinese government, they’ve done wonders in recent decades to undue nearly a hundred years of foreign interference and imperialism. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to be critical of the things I don’t like about the government.
The simple fact is that they have a fairly well documented history of oppressing non-Han minorities in the country.
Cheap Chinese trash mobiles built by Uyghur slave labor are not the answer.
Source?
How about we build cars in Canada instead?
Another person who thinks the world is like a SIMS game… just press the button and the factory pops up, right?!
EVs are easier to build than gas cars at least
But we were fine with the usa destroying multiple countries, participating in many coups and supporting Israel for decades.
At least keep the tracking and voice-recording (for Ai) in-country. I don’t see that in a provable fashion in the cheap asian cars.
While there are still a lot of low quality things produced en masse in China, this take is getting more and more out of date.
South Korea and Japan used to make cheap crap too until their industrial output developed to the point the average quality was high.
We have reached this point to a certain degree with China too. Their EVs sure as hell are better than Tesla’s.
There’s a lot of high quality stuff coming out of China now, along with crap.
LOL, have you seen the EVs that are coming out of China nowadays?
If they were trash the EU and US wouldn’t put tariffs on them, because they wouldn’t threaten our own manufacturers no?
Aren’t Chrysler, Fords, and GMs already built in Canada, or at least a bunch of the parts of them?
They should ban the Cybertruck altogether for being an unnecessarily dangerous vehicle.
Replacing nazi cars with slave labor cars is a pretty fucked up idea.
Pretty much anything that you’ve ever owned has been made from the exploitation of some working class somewhere. The clothes you wear. The house you live in. The electronics that you use. The furniture that you own. The very food you eat and drink is often cheap because of an exploited worker somewhere that’s paid pennies on the dollar. Your going to draw the line at a drastically cheaper car that’s leaps and bounds better for the environment than a petrol vehicle? Okay.
Yes.
EVs are definitely better for the environment than ICE powered cads. But they won’t singlehandedly solve climate change, let alone all the harms when places prioritize single occupancy passenger cars at the expense of public transit.
And sure, I’m drawing a line here because cars are one of the precious few industries where you can still buy union-made.
Where do you draw that line?
Smell that? That’s the smell of virtue signaling. Just buy shit and drop the hypocrisy. At least the other guys is being honest.
“I buy from companies who most closely match my ethics” is virtue signaling, now?
We live in a capitalist society, and voting with our wallet is the only vote we get. Not everyone can afford to vote, but why wouldn’t you if you could?
If this is virtue signaling, it’s the most subtle milquetoast virtue signaling ever.
“I buy from companies who most closely match my ethics” is virtue signaling, now?"
That’s well said. And good on you for sticking to your guns. You are 100% right. I think if you can afford to avoid these companies you should.
To be fair, as someone said, it’s not EV that will save the environment. They bring their own problems such as rare earth minerals, heavy metals, lithium fires, heavier cars = move road degradation because of weight, more PM2,5 because of the weight on caoutchouc tires, the difficulty to replace parts when broken because of the more locked design and less right to repair friendly and more.
Are they good for the environment? More than a combustion car, probably. Are they the silver bullet solution? Absolutely not. We are in Canada and we have industries, local, that could benefit from investing into public transportation and trains. That’s true Canadian investment to our companies and solutions to the current environmental crisis.
Cars factories are heavily automated. Manual labor is barely a factor in their cost. China gives state subsidies for EVs and has a far stronger local supply chain.
The whole “China bad America good” concept has been put in a different light of late.
Does EU/North America fear truly China because of its expansionist policies, or simply because their skin is a different colour? It’s not like the USA is above tampering in foreign government and bugging electronics.
I say go for it, Canada. If only because it’ll push Tesla off the scoreboard without the tariffs. They can’t compete.
I think a big part of why western countries “fear” china in the automotive space relates to local companies’ workers being expected to compete in a race to the bottom for compensation for labourers.
Just look at the fashion industry - sales of five dollar dresses made by workers at shein in miserable conditions dwarf those of 200 dollar dresses produced by local workers with a comfortable quality of life.
This is a fair point. China treats workers poorly, and they leverage labour camps for minorities.
the skin, china has been making stuff that is cheaper than american/western sourced, and they dint like it, especially with the ev situation. granted chinas other tech not so much, because china rather industrially espionage in most cases, even thier “research” is scrutinized by peer review alot.
also chinas expansion policies, they almost never follow through, or does it in a way its very slow moving.
The only difference is that “China bad America Good” has shifted to “China bad, America also bad”. None of the issues people have with China have magically gone away.
Exactly this. Why is this so hard for people to understand. China Russia the US and Israel can all be bad at once! Hating one doesn’t mean you have to side with the other!
How about japanese ones? :P Better invest on our own infrastructure, we need Canadian EVs!
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Lol goodbye tesla if that happens
They’ve been on sale in Europe for years and Tesla kept market share. Many everyday E-cars are chinese (MG, BYD etc), with Nissan and Citroen too.
But that was before the past couple of months and Tesla is now suffering hugely from reduced sales (70% in some countries) - but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Chinese ecars.
The Swaticar is losing popularity in Europe?
Their sales have dropped by half since the US election.
@eestileib @LeFantome Those are rookie numbers. You got to tank those numbers further!
Good, the tariffs that is.
We dont need chinese ev to wreck US car industry. We need toyota and their hilux truck brand. We could build a toyota electric car manufacture around quebec’s battery shop and a toyota hilux around alberta.
Why not both
That feels like “robbing Peter to pay Paul”. We don’t want to be dependent on either nationalist autocracy.
Electrek (the publisher of the article) seems to be a bit of a shill for Chinese EV companies, or he’s getting some kind of commission. He’s repeatedly promoted Chinese factories, goes on Chinese factory tours, etc… I don’t know what the angle is, but it’s vastly different from similar sources like Electroheads out of the UK.
That said, fuck Tesla.
Also, Canada should invest in building more micromobility devices here, like e-bikes, e-scooters, etc. The future isn’t cars, and we need more affordable, accessible modes of transportation.
Electrek (the publisher of the article) seems to be a bit of a shill for Chinese EV companies,
They are a shill for best EV options to have EVs everywhere. China has good EVs, and more than 50% of car sales are EVs because they are good. Our EVs are improving rapidly, and sales growth is good without achieving China levels, but their tech trickles down to us as slow as it is.
Also, Canada should invest in building more micromobility devices here, like e-bikes, e-scooters, etc. The future isn’t cars, and we need more affordable, accessible modes of transportation.
Electrek also shills ebikes. Mostly NA brands even if they are made in China. Agree that these are awesome urban mobility options.,
That would be like replacing evil with another evil. CCP are not angels.
Or just fix public transit for fucks sake. Evs are a distraction from the problemm
Please please please…BYD is making super cheap Tesla killers. I’d love to get my hands on one.
now canada needs to invest in proper public transportation, so in the future people wouldn’t need to buy a car just for day to day life.
