A lot of people point out that it doesn’t make any sense that Harry and Ron didn’t like their schoolwork. Well I figured out why:
It’s because the magic system is just as boring in-universe as out of universe. It doesn’t make any sense in universe either. Harry and Ron realised Rowling’s magic system kinda stinks way before we did, because they spent all day learning it.
If Sanderson had been writing Harry Potter, then Harry and Ron would have liked learning magic as much as Hermione did (Also, Sanderson actually DID write a book about a super-school, it’s called Skyward, it’s good)
Probably because its a shitty TERF series. Read better books, watch better movies.
There’s was almost no magic!
Nah, the magic system is fine, they just didn’t use it right. Example: Snape wondering if somebody is there. “Accio Invisibility cloak!” Boom, Harry’s standing there visible and Snape has his cloak!
A magic cloak that can hide from Death can probably hide from Accio, too.
Honestly Accio seemed to fail close to 80% of the time.
It would have been much better if she styled her spells like pokemon moves with accuracy % and the caster stats affecting speed, evasiveness, boosts, resistance, etc.
The whole allegiance of wands thing could fit that
This is the one thing I really appreciated about the Discworld books on a recent re-read. The wizards are hilariously incapable of doing anything useful. Terry Pratchett doesn’t give a super clear series of rules for the magic system but it’s abundantly clear that the wizards are incapable of actually useful magic, and mostly just get too tired up in internal power struggles to ever do anything. And in the book Sourcery, the first sourcerer (one who can create new spells) to grace the disc takes over the world, realizes running the entire world is too stressful and tedious then creates his own pocket dimension to play with magic in instead (I’m oversimplifiing here, skipping over a bunch of interpersonal stuff related to a sentient wizard’s staff run by a dead guy who tricked Death among other details but that’s the general gist)
By making the wizards so useless it bypasses any of the logical problems posed by creating a world with magic in it. There’s no “why no use this spell” “why not magic out of this problem” etc. all because the wizards are too useless to actually do anything
One of the big ideas about magic in his universe isn’t just that the wizards are useless but that using magic is more trouble then it’s worth. It creates all sorts of left over magic residue that can build up to a myriad of effects.
We see the wizards preform powerful spells, showing that they can do have power and do have a certain degree of knowledge, but rather choose not to.
The duty of the wizards is more to make sure no one preforming magic willy nilly and to prevent people from making sorcerers.
You’re right! I finished Sourcery like 6 months ago and have read a bunch of other books since then so my memory was kinda foggy. But that’s exactly it, the magic exists and can be powerful but it’s simply more trouble than it’s worth
Rincewind isn’t useless at most things, he’s only useless at magic.
Esk is actually able to use magic to solve problems, because she’s a precocious child and also female.
I don’t know about that. They literally introduced time travel and then never bring it up again except for one sentence where “oh they all broke”.
Like don’t get me wrong it’s not horrible but it’s also not great. It is good enough for a kids story which is what it is, not something to build your life off of
I think you might have responded to the wrong comment?
Yup looks like it. Stupid app lol
The wizards series of the discworld books are by far my favourite, but for exactly the reason you’ve set out. (Similarly with the witches)
The dialogue between the faculty is so believable and so stupifyingly inane and political that it’s hard to say that anything is more probable.
Anyone actually interested in how magic works gets ignored and all that really matters is where the next good meal is coming from.
Just one of the countless reasons that Terry pratchett is a gem of an author.
My issue is honestly just the inconsistency of when spells would work or wouldn’t. That and the fact that many dangerous situations could have been ended immediately if they used a spell they knew. I watched the movies and was yelling at the screen to use a certain spell to solve the situation but they just run away scared and helpless.
Who sanderson
Brandon. Look up Mistborn. Steelheart and The Stormlight Archives are good too.
thank 💖
Tress and the emerald sea is a good starter. It’s in the cosmere, but it’s shorter and kind of gives a feel.
person of few words
I think magic went through a dark age in the HP universe, where all the words that were imbued with power were done so aeons ago, and then that knowledge of how they came to be was lost, with only a few handful having been rediscovered in the modern era.
Exceptions like “Point me” might just be english analogs of existing spells, rather than new inventions.
Or they’re just lazy? 🤔
Yeah, OP must not spend much time around teenagers
Not any more than your average school kid I’d say. There are many subjects that are or can be interesting that are thought in schools, but can be taught in the most boring way. They enjoyed DADA with Lupin quite much for example.
There are also other subjects not related to practicing magic directly.
Yeah, book 3 is the one where Rowling made an effort to delve into the workings of the magic system. The Patronus is the only spell we actually learn how to cast. (No, levio-sah doesn’t count). The time turner has limitations which allow Rowling to tell an interesting story with it.
Rowling made magic interesting for one book, and Harry became interested in magic.
Then she changed her mind.
I’m currently going though the books and from what I can tell, Harry especially takes issues with some teachers. He hates history and doesn’t understand divination but he’s fine with charms, defense against the dark arts and even potions once Snape no longer teaches it.
It’s just that during the lessons she describes, they usually have stuff like Quidditch or Voldemort stuff going on so they don’t really pay attention. They also don’t like doing homework so they let Hermione do it for them. And they still did pretty well on the OWLs so all in all, I think they were fine with class but by and large, she just doesn’t really write about classes that went their regular course.
is this not just affirming the premise of the sixth book? that’s the whole reason why Potter found the Prince’s spells so fascinating. school subjects are not meant to entertain. they are meant to teach.
also, as book five attests–as well as does the subject of history of magic–some syllabi and some subjects were way more boring than others.
my main gripe would be that nobody taught english or any other form of formal communication at hogwarts. i dunno how they all just didn’t end up speaking like Hagrid.
I like the universes where being taught can also be fun. It has the funny side effect of making the pupil want to learn even more!
Fuck the universes that keep entertainment and learning separate.
It’s also not surprising the conservative rat hates history even though it should be one of the most important subject when dealing with the setting’s hitler.
It says a lot about Rowling that Hermionesl’s one flaw was being an abolitionist
In the books Harmoniems is pretty flawed, book smart, but totally unfamiliar with wizard business and the magical blokes, she knows the book stuff, not the culture stuff.
The reader hardly knows about the culture shit. How is it that we don’t know voldermort can hear anyone say his name until the last book?
Well… you know why. Because JK wrote them first book to last without really planning what happens next or why, and didn’t bother tying stuff in to the previous books unless it occurred to her without checking.
There’s nothing wrong with the magic system because there’s always a reasonable setup and payoff for what can be done with magic and solutions never come out of nowhere as some deus ex machina. The magic system the stories had worked perfectly fine for the stories that were being told. Not every magic system has to be some stupid overly explained BS that takes all of the actual wonder and “magic” out of it.
Rowling is a piece of shit terf but you Sanderson cultists are still so fucking annoying. There’s more to magic in storytelling than just the exact, specific mechanics of how it works. Read Earthsea.
Picking on Sanderson is a bold move ;)
The main point of the contrast being Sanderson (and honestly, most of the greats) developed a solid cohesive lore and set of rules. As the story progressed, the rules get clarified, the twists and surprise are made in logic and creativity, but in the finding of some new rules and the hasty trying to stitch them back into the past.
Sanderson puts out as much content in a couple of years as others do in decades. It’s not always page-turners, but each work has it’s moments.
Rowling did a little worldbuilding, maybe borrowed a bit, arguably did a good job on a handful or two of characters then just kinda milked it.
She introduces time travel out of freaking nowhere.
She hints at it throughout the whole book/movie by showing that Hermione had a chronologically impossible course load and having her suddenly show up in places that she didn’t seem to be mere seconds previous.
For one book.
Yeah. I don’t think you understand what a deus ex machina is.
Some hints don’t change all the nonsense plot holes and the fact that is almost entirely forgotten about afterwards. It’s only there because the plot needs it.
Of course it was only in the story because the plot needed it! Most things are only in a story because the plot needs it! And there was plenty of setup for it beforehand–an entire book’s worth in fact.
The fact that it was introduced and then never used again even though it is obviously unbelievably useful and apparently available enough that a 13 year old was lent one to attend extra classes definitely deserves some criticism but at some point you kinda just have to make peace with the fact that it’s a kid’s book and it’s really not that big of a deal.
You’re really doing nothing to dispel (no pun intended) my suspicions that Sanderson readers can’t understand anything that isn’t explicitly explained to them.
I’m sorry, no Deus ex machina? Am I misremembering the bit where suddenly two wizards casting a spell at each other at the same time for a prolonged duration reverses cause and effect and makes dead people come back as ghosts to give the protagonist advice?
I can agree that stories don’t need a “good” magic system, but I also feel like HP has glaring holes in places that negatively affect the experience. It’s still a fun story, but I definitely think it could be better if the magic made more sense.
It’s a shit story, just not because of a ‘bad’/soft magic system.
One of the two wizards WAS the protagonist, so you might as well call this a near death experience or something. Might literally have all been in his head. I don’t think this is a good example.
I looked it up and found the name - pretty sure it was explained shortly after the event as “Priori Incantatem”, showing it’s a known phenomenon in the world.
Pretty sure the reasoning behind that was given in book 1.
I don’t think so, I believe the reasoning only showed up shortly after the event, though it’s been a really long time since I’ve read HP, I’d be interested in knowing if I’m wrong
I’m pretty sure Olivander already mentions when Harry chooses his wand that it’s basically a twin of Voldemort’s, and in the subsequent books it’s explained that that + Lily’s magic is causing plenty of weird things to happen, including what happens in book 4. Sure, the exact reason why it happens is still “magic” but that goes for most magic systems if you delve deep enough.
The issue is that the wands being made from the same core doesn’t have any explained effect before this event, when an explanation conveniently appears, now being a known event that has happened before. The issue is that, to my knowledge, things just happen that have no prior explanation, which sugests they’re just being made up on the fly to fit the narrative, which in turn means the reader/viewer has no way to anticipate them.
In what I’d consider a “good” magic system, things fit together. They don’t have to be revealed immediately, but often there will be hints, and when the reveal is made it’s gonna at least fit into the void in prior knowledge. This is, of course, my subjective preference, but I think HP goes so far into the opposite that it’s just random stuff made up to justify whatever the author wanted to happen with no reasonable explanation.
Ok the ghosts coming out of the wands thing kinda came out of nowhere, but all they did was tell Harry to run away. It’s not like they had a massive impact on the fight.
Expecto patronum, et voila, deus ex machina.
They set it up at the beginning of the movie? How is that a deus ex machina?
I mean, it isnt quite juvenile fiction, but it’s a series of books about kids. Having the magic system being simple makes sense.
Harry Potter’s magic system isn’t simple.
Agree to disagree.
Just like all the worst real-world school subjects, her magic system isn’t something with a logic you can learn to understand, it’s something arbitrary you have to memorize. These poor kids are out here taking the equivalent of anatomy classes all day (why is that bone called the tibia? Don’t worry about it, just memorize it).
