Summary
Trump just presided over one of the greatest diplomatic disasters in modern history, with flared tempers, raised voices, and shredded protocol.
Never before has a U.S. president bullied and berated an adversary, never mind an ally, in such a public way.
During a tense Oval Office meeting, Trump and JD Vance attacked Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, demanding he accept a peace deal with Russia or lose U.S. support.
The conversation devolved into shouting, with Trump accusing Zelenskyy of being ungrateful and “gambling with World War III.”
The meeting ended in chaos, with no agreement reached.
Finally a fucking accurate headline. All of this “argument between zelensky and trump” horseshit was so immediate and widespread. Trump couldn’t even handle his own unjustified attack. They needed vance to to start with verbal diarrhea and buzz words so dementia donny dipshit had things to free associate with. They ganged up and bullied to try to force him to break, and he held.
Zelenskyj had every right to question Vance the way he did, but it wasn’t the right time to do so if he wanted their respect.
It was disrespectful. It hurts me to concede this point. I didn’t want it to be true but I had to see the cause for the fight breaking out, and I hate to admit that it was Zelenskyj who put Vance on the spot in front of everyone like he was on trial, and put him to shame. That’s not something you want to do when you’re trying to make a deal for your people.
Zelenskyj has too much of a backbone, unfortunately. Respect to him, for standing up against bullshit, but it was definitely a case of picking your battles.
So what should’ve been the answer to Vance’s proposal of “diplomacy”, in your opinion? Do you think he shouldn’t have questioned the validity of it, in spite of the precedents? Wouldn’t that just mean accepting the deal without any guarantee of protection like it happened before?
If Zelenskyj really had the ambition of accepting a deal here, he should’ve just let it slide. Diplomacy is always a good thing if it’s fair and just. But we all know Vance is full of shit in this case. You have to have the right to defend your land, obviously. We know this.
But starting to question someone and putting someone on the spot on live TV that you’re trying to make a deal with, and making them lose face in front of their own people in their home court, that’s a deal breaker. You could tell because Vance had nothing to retort with other than say Zelenskyj was being disrespectful.
I mean, this is just facts. I don’t like it more than anyone else. This was a shit situation. He needs the deal, but had to swallow a lot of shit if he were to get it, but he chose not to. Respect to him for that, but now it is what it is.
If he felt he didn’t really need the deal, then he chose the right thing to do by not taking bullshit. So good on him.
I don’t think people in this thread realize I’m on Zelenskyj’s side in this. Everyone is just down voting every thing I post because Zelenskyj can do no wrong (❤️) and Trump is a monster (which he is), but negotiations are more nuanced than black and white sometimes lol. There’s psychology at play here. Oh well.
I mean, he was asking a question that had to be asked at one point or another. If Vance had an answer to that, he wouldn’t have lost face. If he didn’t, that means any kind of deal they could’ve made would’ve been useless (if not harmful) to Ukraine.
What would’ve he gained by not making that question? The chance to make a deal with no warranties? I feel like he’s a very good strategic thinker, and that wasn’t a choice dictated by pride or by the heat of the moment. There was nothing significant to gain by not asking that question, they would’ve just discussed the deal behind closed doors and he’d still have to refuse because Trump’s only warranty would still be “well so far he hasn’t broken promises with me, though”.
Seems to me like there was no point in being there at all except to argue in that case? That’s how I interpret what you are saying. If there were no guarantees in this deal, why is Zelenskyj there in the first place, but to shame them (rightfully)?
I think it’s because he hoped there were actual guarantees, considering Trump is definitely interested in Ukraine’s mineral industry. But as the meeting went on it became increasingly clear that keeping Putin his BFF was even more important and he just wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
I just don’t think it adds up, because Zelenskyj was thanking Trump and saying God bless Trump and being appreciative in demeanor all the way up until Vance’s horse shit. To me it just seems like he took so much offense to Vance’s remark about diplomacy that he couldn’t keep it in. Again, no blame here. But it just seemed like it wasn’t the way it was supposed to go.
I still think the ultimate outcome wouldn’t have changed but yeah, rewatching it he does seem a bit more provocative than in the rest of the interview. Maybe it did tick him off a bit too much and he decided to go for it in the heat of the moment.
It is not our place to fund their war and their country any longer. Americans need help and those hundreds of billions could be helping our people. If Ukraine wants to continue fighting then do it without US support.
Your funds are being used so that Ukrainian soldiers can risk their lives defending your border with your biggest enemy.
America’s border isn’t in Eastern Europe.
And you think by proving that technicality you’ll somehow win the argument and be correct about the rest? Give me a break.
Ok, your alliance’s border, then. Or the western world’s border. Or “the furthest east you can impose another fucking airstrip”. Whatever you prefer. Point still stands.
Those billions went to military industrial companies, directly funding manufacturing jobs in the USA.
Yes we supplied the weapons but we also have been funding their government. Ukraine functions because we and the Europeans pay for it.
Yes it is because keeping Ukraine out of Putin’s hands is essential to Western prosperity. Do you understand Ukraine’s role in global wheat production? Do you understand the value of naval ports in the Black Sea? Do you understand the danger of having a Russian border even further in Europe and NATO? Plus, do you think you’re going to see any of the savings? The maybe 1.5% of the federal budget that went to Ukraine…so if you miraculously got those $20 of your federal income tax back, they are gonna turn your life around?
Do you support Ukraine joining NATO?
Cringe.
Their first, still very polite disagreement that evening was when Trump said that the US has given a lot more aid than Europe did, to which Zelensky very politely replies ‘they gave a lot’, clearly avoiding the obvious ‘they gave more’, to which Trump then replies ‘they gave a lot, but much less than we did’, to which Zelensky replies with a clear ‘no.’ and then they laugh. You could argue that Zelensky does not need to do that, but he gives credit where credit is due to the Europeans, and he doesn’t let a blatant lie about an ally slide. It’s the type of moment that’s beautiful and horrendous at the same time. Source: https://youtu.be/CSe0ntgfpq4?t=726
I finde it borderline insane that not more people just tell the fat fuck no when he just lies.
Real Art of The Deal shit.
Absolute fucking masterclass in statesman-like diplomacy.
Genuinely a moment for all Americans to be proud of. Truly, exceptional.
Coming from YouTube, all the comments were saying Trump put Zelenksy in his place… are people actually that stupid, or is the whole internet edgy rightwing bots?
The comment section of the video I watched said otherwise. Was the one you watched on the Fox channel by any chance? They be like that.
It was a left leaning UK channel, weirdly enough
What channel?
Congrats Never Genocide people posing as Progressives. We fucking warned you that exactly this was going to happen. Trump and his cult would side with Russia and throw Ukraine under the bus.
Great fucking job.
And great fucking job, Mods, for protecting those fucks in the name of civility.
We are the baddies now. And we got here because you’d rather protect Nazis from being punched in the mouth for their words and actions in the name of civility.
Also congrats to the Dems for not being against genocide in the first place. And losing to this orange buffoon twice.
Thank fucking God we didn’t vote for Harris because she wouldn’t outright condemn Israel. Totally worth everything happening now (that any remotely educated and reasonable person warned about).
Gaslighting people into believing that Harris did not promise unconditional support for Israel’s genocide I see.
You’re in a lemmy.world instance, brown lives are acceptable sacrifices to them.
I can’t wait for Trump to die
Why would any nation that does not have nukes not start making nukes right now?
The USA has shown over and over, it’s the only thing we take seriously. We don’t give a fuck until you have nukes. We don’t care about treaties, alliances, deals. We only care if you can start the nuke wars. Anything else is just “how can we take advantage of you?”
Also … World, I understand you’re not reading this, but for the three of ya that do, boycott us. Tariff the shit out of us. You got this, and thanks for all the fish.
Unfortunately Ukraine was part of the Budapest Memorandum. With this they gave up their nuclear armament in an agreement that "prohibited Russia, the United States, the United Kingdom and France from threatening or using military force or economic coercion against Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan, “except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.”
So they gave up their nukes with the agreement that they would be safe from these 4 groups. However that didn’t do shit for them, thus a huge reason why any SeasFire(Ceasefire, my bad) would have to have some big security backing. As Russia has ignored all prior agreements.
What is SeasFire?
A ceasefire?
What you say feels right, and it is breaking my heart
Prof. John Mearshmeyer have been talking about great power’s expansionism and it’s relation to nuclear armament since at least 2015.
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Wrote up a summary months ago (with reputable sources!) about this stuff, and was permabanned from Lemmy news and politics for it.
Idk man, you can tell people stuff, but it’s so hard for them to access what’s real right now. There’s a concerted online effort to suppress factual info.
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I know the main thing here is Vance and Trump backstabbing and bullying Zelenskyy, but I just want to point out that Trump repeatedly talked about “raw earth” instead of “rare earths”. We’re truly fucked.
Trump is America’s Boris Johnson turned up 100. The act of stupidity is intentionally, to provide a thin veneer of plausible deniability in case the rule of law comes back swinging it’s prejudice cock to only smack either Vance in the face as he Pardons Trump and Musk.
If Trump’s stupidity is an act then boy is he committed to the bit - because he’s been dumb as a bag of rocks since grade school, through high school, college, and in every encounter with people close to him. Doesn’t even turn it off for the wives or friends behind closed doors. Truly the greatest method actor of our times.
Most of the time Trump makes his little hand vagina.
He looks depressed. Probably because he doesn’t have a third hand with which to grab his own pussy.
I know my meme game has died and ascended into Boomerdoom, for I’ve seen this about 12 times and IDK what’s up
Well, we’re going to have to make friends with Iran to make our membership in the Axis of Evil official.
Now I can think of a lot of places more evil than Iran. Like our good ally and Iran’s enemy Israel
A woman wearing a headscarf is clearly worse than a genocide on women and children.
It would be wildly illegal for me to say what I think of, and wish for, both Trump and Vance, but I’m still gonna quietly pray to whoever is listening that it happens.
Pray all ya want. Last few years have proven that phone is off the hook. We’d be seeing targeted plagues and brimstone if it were.
We’d be seeing targeted plagues and brimstone if it were.
looks at measles outbreaks in Texas
looks very nervously indeed in the direction of Yellowstone Caldera
I understand now why tankies were so obsessed with not voting for Genocide Joe.
I’m not on the side of anyone doing genocide, that includes trump, biden, and harris. If you want me on your side, get a candidate who doesn’t support genocide, really shouldn’t be that hard
Too bad that in the US there’s three sides, two that support genocide and a third one which supports whoever gets the most votes out of the other two.
You literally can’t avoid “supporting genocide” in a FPTP system, refusing to choose just means letting others choose for you. And you can’t tell me in good faith that both outcomes were the same.
By existing in America I can’t avoid supporting genocide?
Then this is an evil country that cannot be saved
It can be saved, through voting in primaries, grassroot movements, and trying to pressure whoever is in power to do the right thing.
But all of this is only possible if you keep voting for the lesser evil. By electing people like Trump, the US population is sending the message that they like those positions, and therefore the other party will keep shifting more and more to the right to try and capture those voters. And the only way a nation can be saved under those conditions is violent revolution. Are you ready for violent revolution? Because if you’re not I’d suggest you either start a plan to migrate to a better country, or get accustomed to voting “against” people, instead of “for” people.
If supporting genocide is a prerequisite of participating in this system I’ll just not participate. I’m only one person and I need to be able to live with myself at the end of the day. Maybe you have a stronger will than I do, but for me supporting genocide is a line I just can’t cross.
You’re still supporting genocide by proxy by living in the US and paying taxes, contributing to the GDP and whatnot, though. You should move and contribute to a different country if you really can’t stand to support genocide in any form.
I can’t afford to move to a different country
People should have the right to vote outside the two party system without a spoiler effect. Its a inalienable right actually.
There are more representative electoral systems that can accomplish this. Are you working to pass electoral reform in your state so those that are unrepresented by First-past-the-post voting can participate in democracy?
“Why are women so obsessed with suffrage” - you, if you lived during the early 20th century
Videos on Electoral Reform
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems we can try out.
I agree with everything you’re saying here. So tell me, how does this have any bearing on the outcome of an election with FPTP voting?
I dunno how you can draw a false equivalence between women fighting for their right to vote, and refusing to vote against an avowed fascist (who then won office), and keep a straight face.
By living in Russia, probably.
Yes, you are very smart. Congratulations on having the most convoluted, psychopathic president in the world. You’ve clearly taught that genocide Joe a lesson.
