The exact reason why it’s bad for top secret communications is why individuals should use it or something like it. That is government auditability.
Consider Briar.
Uses Tor. Works directly over Bluetooth/WiFi if the internet is censored or shut down. Decentralized, no accounts. No phone number required.
Of all the options available, I feel like this one is the best suited to current threats (oppressive governments with all-encompassing surveillance, and the willingness to destroy critical institutions and infrastructure).
The app is super barebones right now - feels like SMS - but it works. Main downside is that both participants have to be online at the same time (maybe group chats can work around this?), since there’s no servers.
How does the Bluetooth work? If you’re close enough to be in bluetooth range with someone aren’t you close enough to just speak to them?
One use case could be mass protests/uprisings, where you have a lot of people congregated in a small area. An increasingly popular strategy among governments these days is to just shut down the entire internet in an agitated region. Bluetooth could keep information flowing between people with only mutual contacts, as they move in and out of range.
I’ll have to give this a look. Since going to music festivals where I couldn’t text my friends I’ve wanted a decentralized adhoc network message app. Using pgp all messages bounces through all devices within local device network range but you can only read the ones you have private keys for.
Ah yeah that’s a pretty good use case
That feels like a huge downside!
Here are two reasons you might not want to use Signal: Your contacts, your settings, your entire Signal experience is tied to a Signal account managed by Signal. Metadata—who you’re talking to, when, and how often—can still be collected and analyzed. Question everything.
The issue of centralization can be a problem, but in regards to metadata, sealed sender does a lot to prevent Signal’s servers from knowing who messages who, which makes Signal a lot more private than described here.
“The only metadata that Signal would have access to, is the phone number used to register, the date of initial registration, and the date of last use.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/signal/comments/exd92f/what_kind_of_usermessage_metadata_is_observed_and/
So use no messenger? Any decentralized options?
SimpleX is decentralized, requires no phone number, based on Signal code. Screws up invitations via FB/Messenger though.
Salute fellow simplex enjoyer 🗿
Thank you
So use no messenger? Any decentralized options?
Alternatives to Signal that prioritize decentralized communication.
- Briar Project (https://briarproject.org/ ): A compelling choice for censorship resistance. Briar employs peer-to-peer messaging, connecting via Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, or Tor, and incorporates privacy features by design. It’s a robust solution for those concerned about surveillance.
- Delta Chat (https://delta.chat/ ): A decentralized and secure messenger application. It’s often praised for its ease of use and integration with existing email accounts.
- XMPP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP ): Less of an application and more of a foundational protocol. XMPP is an open standard for instant messaging, allowing for decentralized implementations – though setting up and maintaining such a system requires a degree of technical expertise.
What kind of private communication can we talk about if you must have a valid phone number to use Signal?! Lol
Signal recently implemented “usernames” instead of phone numbers
But still, to use it, you need a phone number, which in many countries can only be purchased with a passport. That’s the main rule. If privacy is really needed, personal identification should be excluded so that it’s basically impossible to determine who owns the account.
Pretty sure you still need a phone number for an account, though - the usernames are just for sharing your contact with other people.
Most peoples’ phone numbers are easily linked to their identity. Which means the government knows who’s using Signal.
Usernames are definitely an improvement, but this is a fundamental limitation in Signal’s design.
Then I’d delete my old phone number account and start fresh… not exactly the best option but all things considered you might have too
If you want to get really technical, each Signal account actually has a ‘secret’ account number that the phone number is linked to. The phone number requirement is actually a means to reduce spam and scam accounts.
So they could have replaced it with, like, email verification or something, but they instead stuck to the design that lets governments identify all users?
<Insert rampant and unfounded speculation about FBI compromise here>
Much better.
Privacy != anonymous
No, but it’s easy enough to be both. There’s a pile of IM packages out there that manage it.
Metadata is valuable info, look at what a pen register nets law enforcement and why it’s the first step in an investigation. The idea that a messaging app that’s supposed to be used for political action but the chain of association is visible and verified is absolutely suspect.
You say “easy enough” but there are some serious tradeoffs when removing phone numbers from the equation. My mom can use Signal without my help but she wouldn’t be able to use SimpleX.
Signal is a fantastic middle ground messaging app that is secure enough for me to use and easy enough for my mom to use.
I also have SimpleX but I have exactly 1 contact there…
EVERYONE SHOULD DOWNLOAD SIGNAL for PHONE-NUMBER-based communication, tho. Proper RCS is not here yet (and won’t be in a long while), so let’s try to mobilize people to Signal.
DeltaChat is cooler for non-phone based communications, IMO, and decentralization makes it way sexier and worth this tradeoff.
xmpp is like if deltachat was good
What I dislike about XMPP is that the client ecosystem is definitely weaker than DeltaChat. DeltaChat “just works”, and it works incredibly similar and efficient across devices.
But yes, I wouldn’t mind if the world used XMPP instead, honestly.
It also just gets blocked by autocratic firewalls. Deltachat is clutch because it can theoretically run on top of any email host so it’s way more difficult to block.
how is that different from how xmpp (or matrix) is distributed
You can easily redirect xmpp to port 443 which is not blocked by most firewalls. If you have problems with firewalls or public wifis your xmpp server is misconfigured.
China will definitely block xmpp on any port. I know this because I have tested this very specifically from my own server. It lasted about a day and a dozen messages before it was blocked, and the box got absolutely slammed with vulnerability scans.
This is odd because I know a few mainland Chinese people that use XMPP without problems (and afaik without a VPN).
Sounds like your server got blocked for another reason?
Isn’t DeltaChat just PGP encrypted email? Could be wrong
Kinda, but that’s the gist of it.
yeah basically, and gcs work like text message or email chains, theres no way to moderate that
Actually RCS has encryption in the new spec now, and we could see encrypted RCS messages implemented on iOS and Android within a year.
But even so, use Signal.
RCS still leaks metadata like a sieve. Encryption, considering the platforms that exist today (Signal and SimpleX), should not be the minimum requirement. Plain-text messaging should not even be possible in modern secure messaging platforms. The platform should be open source and be engineered to mitigate the collection of metadata - like Signal and SimpleX.
Seeing as RCS with encryption based on the MLS standard hasnt been deployed yet, can you show exactly what metadata is leaking?
MLS only deals with encryption and key management, which is great but that’s been a “solved” problem since TextSecure (now Signal) introduced the TextSecure Protocol (now the Signal Protocol) in 2013.
What I’m aware is missing with RCS / MLS compared to Signal (someone with more recent knowledge please correct me):
- Sealed sender so only the recipient knows who sent the message.
- Not storing metadata or logs.
- No built in crash reports.
- Private contact discovery.
- Published government requests providing evidence that they don’t have any data.
- Open source client.
- Looking at the Google Play store, Google’s Messenger shares precise location data with third parties, Signal doesn’t.
- Also on the Google Play store, Google’s Messenger app list a lot of data collected. Signal only lists phone number.
Well, instead of leaking metadata to Signal, AWS, Cloudflare, Google/Apple and your ISP, like Signal does, RCS only leaks it to your ISP /s
I think they mean that it’ll take time for everyone to get it. My carrier still doesn’t even have RCS at all.
I use signal myself but I also use simple X. I can’t use delta chat because I use proton for my email and therefore can’t use delta.
Delta Chat is not associated with your email account, as far as I can tell. Am I wrong?
⚡️ Sign up to secure fast chatmail servers or use classic e-mail servers
You don’t have to use a “classic email server”, or even link your account to your current email address at all. The default onboarding procedure actually creates a new anonymous account for you on the default chatmail server. Reading through the site, I can’t actually even tell why someone would want to use their preexisting email address.
Ah, okay. I think I heard about it at an earlier point where it was only using your current email.
Yeah, that’s when I first used it too, it had to go through your email. Now it just uses the email backbone to send messages back and forth. Also, self-contained webxdc apps you can use with people in your chat, which is kinda cool.
The self-contained webxdc apps are a pretty cool bonus to what already feels like a normal chat app. I primarily use Signal, but given the current climate of governments trying to force backdoors in to encrypted apps, and the fact it’s a US server, I wanted a decentralized backup. And email isn’t going anywhere, so it seems like a good option.
monocles chat and cheogram have webxdc as well
Considering the US government now owns Meta and thus WhatsApp, it’s an interesting case… why did they use signal?
because “they” don’t trust the people they “represent” and they want to avoid federal archives
they must know something about WhatsApp that we don’t
There’s nothing to know; facebook is facebook, and nobody trusts facebook for data security. Whatsapp is not, nor will it ever be, true end to end encryption, when facebook owns the locks and keys.
Also WhatsApp logs a bunch of metadata (who you contact, how often, profile pic, etc)
The government does not “own” Meta. Words have meanings.
Lots and lots of meanings.
Not for ideologues unfortunately.
If there is backdoor for them, then there is a backdoor for everybody who knows where to look.
Disappearing messages
I personally use carrier pigeons with caesar cipher. I know I can’t out tech google, so I will go medieval.
Consider upgrading to IPoA?
You can do better than Caesar cipher
Signal is great, that’s why I’m suspicious that this recent story is to not only target journalism, but also secure app communication. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s used as an excuse to remove signal from the app stores.
Hopefully I’m just being too paranoid.
Immediately had that thought as well.
Don’t blame the barn for not holding the horses when you leave the fucking door open.
I don’t think that’s the case, I just think it is old people not know how to use technology.
Additionally, all these people in power are using signal, how is that not a loud endorsement that everyone should be on it.
Sadly, my contact list remains mostly on WhatsApp and Facebook messenger only.
Anyone who uses Facebook messenger as their only messenging app will need to text or call me. Fuck that. I do, however, use WhatsApp and discord for work and uni group chats. If or when that’s no longer the case, people who only use those will need to text me, too.
That sucks, didnt know charging by the minute was still a thing at all in some places.
The big problem is that the telecoms still charge by the minute to call a landline so most businesses have a Facebook page and use messenger as their primary form of contact.
I’m literally going to a vet now and they had messenger, WhatsApp or telegram as their contact method
insanely paranoid if you think this will get it removed from app stores good grief
Talk to Tiktok
that was a publicity stunt
Signal is the place for top secret communications, but not for any government business, top secret or not (at least not when using a public instance - they could fork the project to keep decryptable records on gov servers where the official gov instance would run).
at least not when using a public instance - they could fork the project to keep decryptable records on gov servers where the official gov instance would run
All the people in the chat were high enough that the government for free provided them with secure rooms in their homes so everything would be done through government hardware and encryption programs.
Yes, ofc, using Signal was intentional to not keep any records/evidence.
They were probably out golfing at the time
The protections for classified information are not just about information security. They are about physical and operational security as well. That’s why s SCIF has a “two locks” policy, and requires things like 4" steel doors.
You are right.
They are also about data security, so nobody can just erase, modify, or destroy/lose data. And all that applies to data handling and access as well.
Out of curiosity, what’s a better app for that use?
Anything that logs all the communication.
Govs have their own apps, email servers, various other web-based tools to exchange data, etc. Usually also gov hardware (ie can’t use/access such gov apps on non-gov phones).
It’s not “what’s better” it’s what is mandated/required/the law.
Much like when you get a regular average job you have to use whatever is permitted - company email is the usual, can’t just deal with company data over your private email account where the company has no oversight.I didn’t mean for transparency or compliance with disclosure. I meant more secure for classified level communications.
I can’t imagine any messenger is private if you invite random people into a group chat 🤦♂️
Layer 8 security issue
error: problem between keyboard and chair
but nowadays maybe it works better with screen
PEBCAK Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard!
Knew of an IT help desk employee who used this as a resolution in a ticket. Yeah, he got fired as soon as the customer looked up what it meant.
Also known verbally as an “I. D. Ten T.” error (id10t error).
The actual military grade (xmpp based) messengers implement security lables, meaning messages are tagged with the required security clearance and if you invite random people to a chat they can’t see the messages.
Wherever Signal is mentioned, I shall mention SimpleX-Chat.
Zero user ID needed to use. No phone numbers and no username.
SimpleX-Chat!!!
Out of band key exchange is great -as long as people can physically meet and exchange QR codes. In reality, they are often sent via less secure means. As always, the humans are the weakest security link.
Fair point, it always feels dirty to send invite-link through WhatsApp, the dominant messenger in EU.
How would one go to solve the invite problem? How does Signal handle this?
Phone number and trust-on-first-use for most people, with out-of-band fingerprint verification for the paranoid. It really depends on the threat model and the security practices/awareness of your colleagues, but a link shared on some social media or lower-security chat network is more vulnerable to a man-in-the-middle attack than a phone number for your average Joe. There are a lot of ways a person could get a manipulated invite link.
SimpleX is what I use. I tried Signal in the past, but there was a noticeable delay in receiving messages and it caused problems when using it to communicate with family.
I have no problems with SimpleX so far. It works well and looks modern. A feature I like is that you can create a different user identity for each contact/ chat thread. It also supports socks5 proxy.
You might’ve had background battery optimization enabled
Maybe, but I normally only leave battery optimization on for apps that shouldn’t be running in the background at all. This was several years ago, though. If Signal isn’t like that anymore, that’s a good thing.
Finally someone who understands! Haven’t found anything better. Just missing the bridging bit, though that comprises the privacy/security and overall personal opinion why I started using SimpleX.
UI-wise it isn’t there yet, but actively being developed so. I miss posting photos (combined) with a comment, now they are all sent separately.
Anyhow if you are looking for privacy go for SimpleX!
Not sure I want to tell all my friends to get simplex with me.
SimpleX is kinda good, but also we have briar, it does have ids, but more secure and 2P2, i don’t know if simpleX was checked by third parties about security, briar was audited by cure53 for example.
Briar… not familiar with, thx for sharing privacy goodies. Will check it out.
As for audits on SimpleX, there have been some. Not sure when the last one was tho, they prob have something on their site with a date.
I believe Briar can’t do offline messaging without setting it up to use another app. That’s the main reason my friend group shifted to SimpleX instead of Briar.
All I’ll say is Threema. You pay once for a licence, so there’s less bullshit people on it and they are based in Switzerland with it’s privacy laws.
Proprietary?
Not sure, but probably. But looking at their history I think they have a good track record and it’s used by the government as well in certain cases.
Regarding the trick of an adversary gaining access by emailing or SMS’ing a QR code for adding another device…
Why does the new device not demand the PIN before being added?
It does, I tried it. Though, that may have been an addition since the attacks started.
Though, in that specific case - Russian agents conducting espionage via targeted individuals - it’s very likely they surveil their targets long enough to catch their device PIN before they nab the phone and return it. In the end, there is very little recourse to defend against this type of Evil Maid attack. Signal is really better at protecting against mass surveillance, but for individuals directly targeted by state espionage? You would need serious opsec, using air-gapped computers kept in safes or guarded by humans 24x7 and other crazy stuff. They have rules about what can be physically done with devices containing top secret information for a good reason.
If they could surveil the device to see the PIN being entered then no app would protect them.
My Signal only asks for a PIN about once per month so that would be a lot of screen surveillance hours to sit through in order to catch that moment.
More likely is that it was fixed since the breach but I cannot find release notes (hard to search on my phone).
How’s signal compared to Element?
Also, is there a secure way to directly send messages to someone else’s phone without the message having to be stored on a central server? As in they’re only stored on the recipient device. Is that even possible with how the internet works and how packets are routed between networks? Even if the server has no way of decrypting messages by default, just having the encrypted messages stored there is a liability because your encryption keys can easily get leaked by malware running on your device, phishing, etc.
element keeps a lot of metadata unencrypted. but it is federated, you can choose the server that has access to it (deny federation for the room or set up federation ACLs if important to keep it there), and because of the former it’s harder to just shut down.
https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec/issues/660
signal doesn’t, in theory they don’t even know the recipient of your messages (but there’s a twist in that part as I remember), but it is centralized around US servers. it is easier to shut down.
No, it is not. 🚮
