Ah yes, let the filthy and bad migrants on one side of Europe literally drown in the ocean (maybe help a bit, if their skiffs seem too robust) and open the doors for the good and awesome ExPaTs on the other side.
I wish I had a brain to drain. I don’t have any valuable skills, nor a lot of money. Nobody wants to take me. I’m going to be at the mercy of the Nazis.
Europe hates migrants. Get real.
We don’t hate immigrants, we are selectively racist tho. Random Muslim? Cool whatever. Random Muslim who insists we should turn wherever they live into a representation of their former home? Yeah no
What’s the basis of that assertion?
all of recorded history
The color of the skin.
Frontex
The fact that the EU manages its borders just like every other country/union in the world is proof that Europe hates migrants?
Frontex literally sends them back to get raped & tortured and literally is the reason thousands per year drown in the Mediterranean Sea. We hate migrants, that is a European core value.
Not convinced? After 2nd world war, Germans even hated German refugees. Since then, migrants in Western/Northern Europe have been 2nd class citizens. Brexit went through partly as a campaign against migrants from Poland & Romania.
Still not convinced? It’s not about cultural compatibility or religion or skin color or anything. Ukrainian refugees have been met with empathy because of their skin color and religion at first (but we‘re _ definitely_ not racist and sorry for saying the quiet part out loud). However, in countries like Poland, Hungary and Germany who took on most of the refugees politicians already started using Ukrainians as scapegoats and the hate mongering hit them too.
Think it will be different with Americans? They’re gonna be the ones who took our jobs, always act entitled, destroy our work culture by always being available and ruining the housing market (as if that weren’t already fucked up). To an extent, this is how we see Americans already.
We are a racist, backwards continent. I wish it were different, but this is who we are.
Do I wish there was a better way for people to seek asylum? Absolutely. There was talk about setting up centers in some northern african countries to let people apply without crossing the Med. Don’t know if that happened yet though. Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. And I seriously doubt that Frontex “sends them back to get raped & tortured”. If they knew that was going to happen they’re not allowed to.
Brexit was a Russia sponsored fluke. I’m not saying there aren’t people using migrants as scapegoats for everything, but they’re a minority, but as times gets tougher I get how migrants gets blamed. It’s hard to help someone when you barely got enough for yourself.
About the americans, they would by what’s commonly referred to as “high value migrants”, meaning educated and experienced, someone who can go more or less directly into productive work. That’s the kind of migrant every country on earth wants. Those are the kind of workers that helps grow the economy.
As a continent I think we’re very far from both racist and backwards. Yes, there are those elements among us, but for the most part we’re decent people. We make mistakes and stumble, but we’re generally doing the right thing. I have fatih in us.
I think your view is a bit optimistic - centers in North Africa won’t fix the systemic issues with our border policies. Frontex absolutely does send people back to places where they face torture and sexual violence. They’ve been repeatedly documented performing illegal pushbacks in the Mediterranean and the Aegean.
They’re actively pushing people back to Libya where EU-funded detention centers are effectively torture camps. And Frontex continues illegal pushbacks regularly despite court rulings against them.
There’s extensive evidence of this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/03/libya-migrants-tripoli-refugees-detention-camps
I understand wanting to believe we’re better than this, but the facts don’t support it. The “we’re decent people making mistakes” narrative is comforting but doesn’t hold up when you look at the policies we collectively support through our governments.
About the “high value migrants” thing - that’s exactly my point about how our immigration system works. We welcome people based on economic utility, not humanitarian need. We’ll roll out the red carpet for an American engineer but let Syrian doctors drown.
And this economic utility approach is still fragile - when the economy turns, even the “high value” migrants become scapegoats. Just look at how Brexit campaigns targeted Polish doctors and Eastern European professionals despite their contributions.
The part of brexit is manifestly not true. Brexit is a US invention, the far right from the US banked the whole thing. Case in point, Steve Banon and Cambridge analytica. Allowing US companies to run our digital life is the biggest mistake of the european civilization, and now that civilization is at risk, threatened by a raging jingoistic maniac.
I’d say both. There were absolutely Russian money involved in brexit. By saying this I’m in no way denying US far-right involvement. I don’t think it was state-sponsored from the US though. I 100% believe it was when it comes to Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_Brexit_referendum
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Other places bad isn’t really an excuse for us to suck as well
Not bad. Infinitely worse.
And truly. Having frontier control and regulations is not even bad.
Also, most Europeans are not racist. Your analysis on why Ukrainian refugees are treated differently than syrian refugees (for instance) is incredibly shallow. As people take in consideration a lot more things when judging a person, and attributing it to skin color is just to make yourself a nice strawman to attack.
It’s perfectly valid to be able to have control on who you want to share your life with, as it will wildly influence your own life and well being.
politicians already started using Ukrainians as scapegoats and the hate mongering hit them too.
Those are right wingers and other people on russian payroll, in whose main interest it is to make people hate Ukkranians.
Yeah totally agree. The problem is there was no more outrage because we normalized hating refugees and migrants so much that there wasn’t even a debate or anything anymore, everyone was just rolling with it.
The fact that the EU manages its borders just like every other country/union in the world is proof that Europe hates migrants?
Yes, actually.
Then all countries hate migrants, which makes the statement meaningless.
No, no, these are expats
There’s already a brain drain going in the US Government, as they replace experienced leaders and workers with blind loyalists.
The silver lining is that they have given their opposition the gift of competence. By firing all their competent, knowledgable people, they have driven them straight into the enemy camp.
I’m a senior software engineer! Brain drain me!
Not sure how serious you are, but just in case…
https://www.englishjobs.se/job-role/it-software-engineering
https://jobs.thelocal.com/search/#results%2F67f4c4740357fbed229a30e9%3Fkw=&loc=sweden&page_num=1
I’m interested too. Any specific job sites for Switzerland, Iceland, Luxembourg etc? I prefer the smaller countries.
My employer offers visa sponsorship to employees wanting to migrate to the Netherlands. Once I meet the tenure requirements (a little over a month left), I intend to start the process. My spouse and kid are onboard. We’ve already started learning Dutch and made a week-long trip there a couple weeks ago to make sure we would like it.
Everyone likes the Netherlands, the Netherlands is fuckin awesome. Good choice!
I’m a senior software engineer interested in moving to the Netherlands. Can you tell me more?
A big problem with many people moving out is that they will be missing as opposition and reason. To a degree, it reduces the chances of the US to reform itself.
I would not see it so strictly.
Academics for the most part contribute “thought”. They are much better at doing so living in freedom outside the US than rotting in a prison cell inside the US, or in one of the crowny countries doing the dirty work for the US.
They are missing in doing the ground work of course. On the other hand they stop contributing to the system with their work, their taxes, their presence giving legitimacy… So it makes the system unstable faster and result in it falling apart, leaving space for something new, faster.
In authoritarian regimes it is very rare that they reform themselves. Usually they collapse, mostly in an ugly way. In the case of the US i don’t think that there is currently any hope to be set into reform from inside the system. For every crazed Republican in power we see a Democrat in power who wants to maintain the system, maintain the systemic issues that lead to Trump not once but twice and last but not least is enjoying many of the oppressive and racist policies that were implemented by Trump during his first term. Looking at mass deportations, “the wall”, violent crackdowns on peaceful protestors, or looking a bit longer running the continued operation of Guantanamo Bay, continuing the illegal occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq…
So in the case of the US there isn’t just the extreme-right, there is also the complicit “center” that opposes changing the system and is in part happy with the further pushes to the extreme-right. This complicit block won’t change their attitude and they wont stop keeping progressives in check for the regime until they are personally suffering. It is the Bidens and Harrises the Schumers and Fettermans that prevented a proper response and structural change after Trumps first term and now embrace cooperation with Trump and enjoying that he does some dirty work for them, like continuing the genocide in Palestine.
By staying in the US academics, some of whom have been beaten up by Cops during peaceful protests under the Democrats administration, the academics would give the very same people legitimacy as an “opposition” to the Republican administration that were complicit in bringing this administration into power and are complicit in keeping it in power.
Fair point but if the US insists on being run like a business, then I’m going to treat it like one.
If I go to a restaurant with shitty food and shitty service, I’m paying my tab, leaving, and never coming back.
I’m not going to waste my time going home and writing yelp reviews so that the manager can offer me a free appetizer the next time I come in.
Place sucks.
You don’t give up your right to vote by moving abroad. Your vote in state and local politics is lost. How much of a real impact that has depends on where you live.
This assumes voting continues to function more or less as it has in the past.
Not only am I in favour of the smart Americans moving here, I’m also in favour of sending the stupid Europeans to US.
The Immigration dilemma. When a country starts going wrong the people most fit to fix the country are usually the ones who left and go to another country, precipitating the downfall of the country of origin. Making more and more people want to emigrate and leaving the country in worse and worse shape to fix itself.
I don’t really feel any attachment to a geographical position.
Why would they prefer Europe to Canada?
Europe is further from the US.
Exactly. Canada is also facing a decent chance at an invasion
Not as cold.
Correct. I currently live significantly further north that Iqaluit and the snow is melting.
Public transport
Gotcha.
Is it ready for a ‘brain drain’?
My guess is: We are. Auto-translated:
Acting Education Minister Cem Özdemir has called for the admission of US academics to Germany and Europe. This would require a European concept
The acting Federal Minister of Education and Research, Cem Özdemir, wants to recruit scientists from the USA. ‘If researchers from the USA - but also from all over the world - are interested in working in Germany, we see this as an opportunity for our excellent centre of research and innovation, which we want to take advantage of,’ the Green politician told Redaktionsnetzwerk Deutschland (RND). The German university and science system offers numerous research programmes and scholarships.
Leading scientists in Germany had previously called for the targeted recruitment of researchers from the USA, where they are suffering under President Donald Trump’s government policy. The so-called Meitner-Einstein Programme is aimed at scientists whose work cannot be continued in the USA, or only to a limited extent.
European concept for the admission of researchers
Özdemir said that there is “a broad understanding that Germany and Europe need to be strengthened now”. This would require ‘a broad concept, preferably a European one’. He had already exchanged ideas with his French counterpart and signalled to the EU Commission ‘that the EU should use existing measures to support talented scientists from countries suffering from political and financial influence’. The future German government could follow on directly from this.
In the USA, hundreds of leading scientists from the fields of engineering and medicine recently accused the US government of a ‘major attack on American science’ in an open letter. This could set back research by decades and threaten the health and safety of Americans, it said.
I’ll be in a German Consulate soon to submit the last paperwork for my immigration paperwork. Our family is taking 2x STEM Phds, and kids going into engineering, computer science, healthcare, and education with us. This is a generational loss, but I’m doing it to protect my children, as well as myself.
I’m performing a short fuse wedding next weekend for a prior student so they can seek asylum in Canada as a couple soon. The number of students/prior students who have been reaching out about how to emigrate to anywhere else is very high.
Wow that’s interesting. Why did you choose Germany? Was it difficult to find a position?
There’s plenty of story behind it. The key parts are that I’ve been visiting Germany off and on for 30 years now, ever since high school. I like the feel of the cities and the culture. Their engineering schools have room for people with my skills and interests (I’m more engineer than academic).
I didn’t limit myself to Germany. I’ve applied and interviewed across Europe, though it mostly centered around Germany. I had a good offer in Finland last year that I couldn’t get the ex wife to let me take the kids to.
Was it difficult? Plenty of work to keep applying, but there’s work to be had.
Germany may have real concerns about immigration, but the country needs skilled people, and just plain and hard workers, to fill roles. The alternative is to have major economic collapse, so the government is opening doors even if the populace isn’t always totally on board.
Wish you all the best! You can get citizenship very quickly and my advice to you would be to get that asap and then think about what you wanna do with your life. My friends in Germany all work on their exit plan. They’re all skilled immigrants but find the situation there very scary right now. The fascists are back.
Good luck in Germany. There is a lot to dislike, but so much more to enjoy.
Thank you!
Every field has some green grass and some brown grass. No place is perfect.
Our plan is to move and never come back, but who knows what the future holds?
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If you want to do stem in another country there are only two choices that make sense: Britain and Germany. Everywhere else is either difficult to immigrate to in terms of culture, language, policy, or just doesn’t have a critical mass of scientists and engineers. Some of the other western European countries are pretty good too, but they aren’t as good as the two I mentioned.
People tend to underestimate the need for speaking German in Germany though. Depending on your location and social circle, you might not need much of it day to day. But certain administrative stuff definitely requires a decent understanding (and you really don’t want to misunderstand letters from the government).
Genau! Having had to very slowly translate documents from the government, consulates, and Deutsche Bahn, I am acutely aware of how much not knowing the language is a hurdle.
We’re working on learning German fast. While I’ll be in the Berlin area, so daily life can be mostly in English for a while, we need to integrate and the language is a huge part of that.
Wonder if they have use for Ms and bS majors in stem, like biotech or cmb
BioNTech, the German company that actually developed the Pfizer Covid vaccine, has a bunch of open job listings. So yes, they have a need for people with that skill set. Most of the jobs seem to require German language skills, but not all of them.
And if the most famous German biotech startup is looking for people, then there are bound to be even more lesser known companies also searching.
Yes. It all boils down to getting a job offer, but those are fields and qualifications with possibilities.
I’m from the netherlands and educated foreigners always mention how easy it is to migrate here because so many of us speak English. I’ve heard the same of scandinavian countries. Would you say they are a worse choice if you want to do stem? Just curious.
My friend moved there with her husband after grad school. They had two STEM PhDs.
They couldn’t hack the whole ‘isn’t being normal weird enough’ conformity thing.
I was searching online to check if ‘sticking your head above the cornfield’ is an english saying, this page was one of the results: https://dutchreview.com/culture/doe-normaal-a-dutch-concept-and-term/
This is more a thing out of the big cities, I presume there is many countries where the rural areas are more conservative.
Did they move back to the states or ended up somewhere else?
There’s a beautiful irony in how Americans are following in the footsteps of the multiple countries they bombed or couped into dysfunctionality.
Oh the irony:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”`
“Keep, ancient lands, your destroying Trump,
Give me your fired, your queer,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free…”
Karma, I guess.
Ok but will they take useless dumbasses like me who hate trump?
If you enlist instead of us, why not?
Only one way to find out right
If I learned anything playing 4X games then it is that more pops equals more good
Trump is trying to turn the US into the 80s China. Repression included. China has come a long way since then.
Scratching my head at this comment tbh. While I wasn’t really around in the 80s, I can’t imagine the US becoming like “80s China”. Especially not given the fact that the Trump presidency is a confluence of libertarian extremists, evangelical extremists, and foreign autocrats backing an aspiring autocrat with narcissist tendencies. Sure, there will be corruption and repression and suffering, but that’s where the similarities end, … no?
USA is basically China with a Gucci belt.
A gucci belt, made in China 😉
I’m sure they’ll be welcomed with open arms. Just don’t got to Germany or the French countryside and you’ll be fine 👌
I’m sure trying to take in americans (many of whom will not look like northern europeans) while having an extreme anti-immigration policy (e.g. in Germany) will go over well with no friction.
If they’re straight white men and their family nobody will care.
Look at what happened to Ukrainians, I think our capacity to hate other human beings is endless unfortunately.
This is about Germany, though. I don’t agree with the other person’s point, but at least in Germany, Ukrainian refugees are well-liked - I never hear anything bad about them even from the far right. Probably helps a lot that most of them are 1. white and 2. women and children.
With Ukrainians, we initially saw a wave of genuine support that I was happy about. But within months, politicians started using them as scapegoats. Friedrich Merz, likely the next German Chancellor, accused Ukrainians of “social welfare tourism” - as if they were fleeing bombs for German benefits. Similar rhetoric emerged in Poland and Hungary, where the initial “these are Europeans like us” sentiment gave way to the same xenophobic patterns.
The point is - even that initial acceptance runs out eventually. No matter who you are, we will eventually turn against you given enough time. Americans coming now might be welcomed as “expats” with valuable skills, but as soon as there’s another economic downturn or political shift, they’ll be “immigrants taking our jobs” or “ruining our housing market.”
But ‘we’ also have an endless capacity of trying to help others and especially the Ukrainians who now have a job are being very appreciated as well. Not saying there is no hate, but the Americans who’d cross the pond are most likely the more wealthy and better educated than average. They might get some hate but they will probably be much more easily accepted as islamic and African immigrants.
Scientists who are black, hispanic etc. are “more wealthy and better educated than average”, though.
Our “capacity to help” is inconsistent and conditional. Yes, there was initial support for Ukrainian refugees, but as I mentioned in another post politicians like Friedrich Merz (likely next German Chancellor) soon accused them of “social welfare tourism.” Same happened e.g. in Poland. The welcome narrative quickly gave way to scapegoating.
This pattern happens repeatedly. We initially welcome groups based on perceived usefulness or cultural similarity, then turn on them when convenient. Polish workers in the UK went from being praised as hardworking to being blamed for “stealing jobs” and straining services.
You’re assuming Americans would be “more easily accepted” because they’re “wealthy and educated,” but this ignores how xenophobia operates. Brexit campaigners didn’t distinguish between Polish doctors and laborers - they lumped all migrants together.
Even well-off migrants become targets during economic downturns. Look at how Romanian doctors and nurses in the UK were treated during Brexit despite filling critical NHS shortages. Or how German refugees after WWII faced hostility from other Germans.
Our immigration policies aren’t based on humanitarian concerns but on economic utility and cultural anxieties. When politicians need scapegoats, they’ll target any migrant group regardless of their contributions.
The Americans who’d face the most persecution under Trump are often the same ones who’d face discrimination here - LGBTQ+ people, religious minorities, and people of color. The idea that we’d somehow treat them better than other migrants ignores Europe’s deep-seated xenophobia.
The Americans who’d face the most persecution under Trump are often the same ones who’d face discrimination here - LGBTQ+ people, religious minorities, and people of color. The idea that we’d somehow treat them better than other migrants ignores Europe’s deep-seated xenophobia.
I don’t disagree, but I do believe there (unfortunately) is a scale of how well migrants are generally treated that is based on their culture. education and economic status.
I also don’t disagree with you saying there is a deep-seated xenophobia, but I do believe if you choose to migrate from where ever to where ever you’ll come across people who act xenophobic and racist. Humans tend to like the familiar better than the unfamiliar. Also, wherever you go you will have people (though politicians more than any) using this basic fear to further their agenda. ‘We’ humans are good and bad, often a curious mix of both and most of us have deep-seated fears and most of us are vulnerable to being influenced by others with a good story. Despite this, I still think immigration in general is a good thing. Not always, not every form; but people deciding to move from a bad place to a good place is a good thing.
No argument here, I think humans are being racist/xenophobic in general. The best example imo is the hatred against Syrian refugees in Libanon and Jordan, where people even speak the same language, have the same food and culture, and mostly have the same religion.
I guess I would just wish that we would actually live those “Western values” we keep talking about. And I definitely wish the best for all those wanting to flee from Trump, I would consider that too if I’d be in the US.
Yea I agree. I try to live my values, feel like that hard enough.
That’s the thing though, many american scientists who want to flee are ‘brown’ (hispanic, black, indian etc.) and/or queer, because that’s exactly the type of people who will suffer the most in the US.
