The indoctrination of windows is extreme. Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.
And yet… linux is hard, and users decry RTFM as “not growing the userbase”
Literally had a former co-worker who has taught computer science classes at universities, ran his own PC repair business, and avoids the command line like the plague. Says it feels ancient.
If you’re under 30 and read this and have been on the fence about getting good with computers… Just setup a Linux VM and play around with the terminal. You’ll be leagues beyond so many active professionals it’s scary.
It’s okay to have a preference. In my. 20+ years with Linux, I’ve coded with and for it, did low level embedded development with it, used it at home for school and entertainment, used for amateur photography, even managed a small server for a startup.
I still would rather use a GUI, because I have not specialized in most of the tasks. It’s less powerful, but it’s just more intuitive. It’s less portable between DEs, but it’s easier. And if your only doing that once in a blue moon, it’s more than enough.
It’s absolutely fine to prefer a GUI. At a professional level it is not fine to not understand what is happening beneath the hood.
Full stop.
If you don’t know how to use TCP dump, I don’t want you using wireshark on my dime.
I don’t agree with the full stop. Eliminating nuance is rarely good. Most tasks an IT professional will execute will be done several times a month, so memorizing the tar command options might be useful if that’s something they do all the time. But demanding that a person is proficient with the CLI as a way to prove familiarity with how things work under the hood is just fallacious.
I coded in vim and we built our own makefiles to deploy our code into our proprietary microcontroller. We also used JTAG to connect gdb with the microcontroller, and not even the guy that coded the JTAG interface would be able to write JTAG commands by hand.
I disagree entirely.
Abstraction away from what is happening never adds value in the long run.
Full stop.
Vibe coders be damned.
There’s no relationship between UI and vibe coding.
Full stop
Okay good luck debugging difficult to describe edge cases.
I’m not gonna continue to argue with you. Suffice to say, I wouldn’t hire you.
Cheers.
Yeah, I always use GIMP from the command line, it’s just faster.
Lol if you’re in graphic design you’re beyond cooked. Good luck out there.
The command line is also the ideal way to play Helldivers
So you write out all your commands as machine code I assume? wait no, obviously you set the transistor state manually with an electron gun?
You need people who can read and debug machine code and dig through hex and binary in cybersecurity.
I use ghidra and IDA pro literally every week. And if you don’t know how to use hexdump, you shouldnt be using those tools in the job.
Binary exploitation is common.
So no, but you literally should be able to read machine code, and parse hex/binary in my field.
100%.
Windows has the excuse of being preinstalled everywhere. It makes it very hard to break system or to use the system in a way not blessed by Microsoft.
Linux is fairly easy to learn and gives you lots and lots of power.
It looks like everyone always forget about Chromebooks or kind of ignore them…
I like Chromebooks
I would use one if it wasn’t a privacy and freedom nightmare. I think it would be cool if there was a distro that was rootless by design and unbreakable as possible
I super hate Chromebooks. My mom gave my kid one and it’s ruining my life. I should have just binned it and gotten him a real laptop with mint or ubermix.
He has a computer now with ubermix, but it’s an uphill battle.
You could ask him what he wants
Best way to engage kids in tech is to give them options.
Oh I know what he wants. He wants me to put games on it. If I do it’ll wreck his sleep habits for life
Depending on his age that may or may not be acceptable. My parents used to have a charging station away from bedrooms. The rules was that tech went on the charger at a certain time.
Family link Is Great for that
Tip, you can put full Linux on most chromebooks and chromeos devices. I’ve done it before mrchromebox.tech
I’ve tried and failed. I forget the particulars but I wasn’t able to get it to accept the change.
On mine I had to use a BIOS flasher tool since it was locked and Dev mode wasn’t allowed to be enabled (think it was due to enterprise enrollment), though flashing the image directly worked like a charm following the unbricking guide.
I like Chromebooks
I would use one if it wasn’t a privacy and freedom nightmare. I think it would be cool if there was a distro that was rootless by design and unbreakable as possible
I recently switched to Linux after a lifetime with Windows. Last night I went to install a backup program on my media server but it couldn’t see the destination drive. I downloaded a partition manager and it crashed trying to load the external drive. DDG’d the issue, but I couldn’t find a clear cause/effect that applied to me. So I downloaded a different partition manager and backup program, and they worked right out of the box. Turns out the non-working apps were written for Gnome and the working apps were written for KDE, (which is my desktop environment). It was a very frustrating half hour, but it pales in comparison to the time I’ve spent troubleshooting (storage) driver issues in Windows. The point I’m making is, Linux isn’t really that hard to learn, it’s just unfamiliar and therefore scary. Getting past your fear unlocks a whole new world of wonder and possibilities! 🐧
🧐never had an linux app not working because it was “not designed for my desktop environment” I am confused, I was sure all Linux app run on all window manager / desktop environment 🤔
Are you sure?
Most KDE apps will run on Gnome and vice-versa, but they might not run particularly well under those conditions.
I used to run into issues with this all the time. Recently, I find, for poplar apps, there’s always a version built for my chosen desktop environment.
Of course, I’m not very picky, anymore: Libre-this, Open-that, Free-Whatever. I usually find the one that comes up in the app search is good enough for what I’m doing.
Oh yeah, Windows storage driver issues are great if you need to kill time. Nothing better than your Windows installer claiming there’s no disk. Great in combination with missing touchpad drivers. But hey, at least I found out it can indeed be installed without a working mouse and that includes installing the storage driver!
Ummm… Both gnome and kde apps should work on any desktop environment
My guess is that they are using a KDE distro that doesn’t properly package gnome stuff
That’s just a guess though
Fedora 40 based distro, some apps have rendering issues when desktop DPI to is set to 125% or 150% (but work fine at 100% or 200%). I thought it was a Gnome issue but it’s actually a Wayland issue displaying legacy X11 apps with fractional scaling.
So my workaround for now is to just find apps with native Wayland support, which isn’t too difficult as it’s growing in popularity.
Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.
Windows used to be easy. Now, it’s so obscure and locked down that only Microsoft can maintain your computer. And they maintain it for their own benefit, at your expense, with mandatory ads and lockouts.
I disagree about how it used to be easy. And agree with everything else.
Ive used Windows since the 3.1 days (MSDOS as well?). Its never been “easy”. You just learn the magic spells on how to fix a printer, get the right drivers installed in JUST the right way, or which hardware magically doesn’t work for some reason and avoid it.
With Linux, at least we get good logs most of the time.
i remember my first family pc was a tandy sensation which had it’s own built in ui - winmate - because windows 3.1 program manager was so frustrating.
As a kid using XP, never had a single issue.
As a kid helping his family’s XP and 7 computers, I had faced plenty of issues.
My favorites:
- One computer (I think XP) didn’t use the correct resolution on Intel’s driver, and needed Windows’s fallback driver
- One computer (I think 7) required Windows’s fallback driver for audio, and Windows Update was installing VIA’s or Realtek’s drivers
Write the kernel like a worm virus so it has self-maintenance and also self-replicates, spreading Linux to every connected machine it can. 🤡
I think that spreading Windows across Linux machines is easier. Linux’s root can be remounted as tmpfs, allowing the boot drive to be re-imaged. I don’t know if Windows can do that.
You might be able to do that with Windows Update
I bet Windows Updates are signed. Uncovering the signing key would probably have serious consequences.
Third party software can also use Windows update as I’ve done it in the past
Windows is just as hard as linux, harder even with all the layers of obscurity.
With Windows, there is 1 current version of Windows (11), 1 “almost current” (10), 1 “outdated but you’ll maybe see it” (8.x) and only a few “you’ll probably only see this in obscure situations” versions. Linux has as many “parent” distros/package management systems (apt, rpm, pacman, etc.). This definitely complicates things, as each distro family does things slightly differently.
And we haven’t even touched the window manager/DE choices, of which there are a ton (as opposed to Windows). “Combinatorical explosion” maybe isn’t the right phrase, but you get the idea — Debian with i3wm is wildly different from Fedora Plasma.
This is all a good thing though, as Linux users tend to like the choice and flexibility — but it does mean that the “right way” to do something on Linux is very dependent on your particular setup, which isn’t the case with Windows.
(I have used Linux for the last 20+ years, and it’s definitely my preferred setup, and am lucky enough that I rarely use Windows for work, and never for personal use.)
That’s why we got together and agreed on one version of Linux to recommend to new adopters.
Linux Version
Okay, maybe we should have reconsidered when Hannah Montana Linux won the vote…
I wouldn’t be surprised if Windows XP has higher market share than Windows 8 when you account for air gapped devices.
Every old iOT device seems to to run XP
I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
If all personal computer users were tech tinkerers like they were in the 70s and 80s, then linux and its distros would basically be the default OS everyone used. But that is not the world we live in. Microsoft saw a world where everyone was a computer user and Windows was designed in a way to support that vision.
Theres nothing inherently wrong with catering to the lowest common denominator, linux apostles just need to understand that not everyone can be uplifted to their level, nor do they want to be - or, even, should be.This was my thought as well. Unix was built from the ground up as an OS to support researchers and engineers. Later people adapted it to desktop use. Windows was built to be easy to use for the average person from much earlier on. I don’t think anyone claiming that it’s not easier to use than Linux has used it lately or is being completely honest.
Fortunately, today the gap is really small compared to what it was IMO. Compatibility with games has gotten really good which pretty much leaves behind the proprietary professional apps in terms of raw functionality. With Microsoft testing the limits of how much they can exploit their user base, I think we’ll see slow but steady growth in the desktop Linux space.
Microsoft saw a world
That’s not what happened. They got a dominant position because IBM could not even on their IBM PCs, and were at the right place at the right time, even if DOS was actually just garbage. With the power/money from this deal, they strongmanned their position as dominant PC operating system long after that era using legal and illegal anti-competitive means.
Microsoft still has wide unethical reach with secret and not-so-secret contracts and agreements not to allow other operating systems to gain a foothold in OEMs. And that’s before you get through the sheer inertia from users that completely refuse to try something different on the grounds that they don’t want to.
Besides this, the complete apathy in Europe moving off Microsoft software is quite concerning. Companies in the US are already collaborating with fascists in an unreflected way in true capitalist fashion - as happened 90 years ago. The reaction to this in terms of OS selection by companies is to hide their head in the sand and pour concrete for good measure. This will not work indefinitely, and I feel like nobody is going to suffer consequences for being a completely willful useful idiot for what is in summation a batshit fascist regime.
Yes, I am putting Microsoft and fascism on the same pedestal, the end stage in Microsoft bashing. The sad part with this meme is that in 2025 it’s not unwarranted.
Nobody has ever been fired for ordering
SAPMicrosoft, right?Choosing software is mostly choosing a tool get a job done. Microsoft has powerful software and a big ecosystem around it.
Windows is really good for administrating lots of workstations for large organizations for example.
Nobody disputed that their current software works.
Choosing software is mostly choosing a tool get a job done.
The issue in this case is that the vast majority of companies will choose a tool made by a company that will now be bending their will to a fascist dictator whose cronies cannot be trusted to do rudimentary operational security.
There was always the nebulous stranglehold that the US might have on the IT security of any company that chooses Microsoft, because you cannot build Windows and the vast majority of their software from source, or audit them.
From the IT security perspective of Europe it’s exactly like all zero-days and backdoors known and implemented by the US intelligence agencies were just handed over to North Korea.
Last time I checked there wasn’t an easy alternative. Linux might work for some things but it isn’t straight forward to manage and maintain.
Honestly Active Directory is so underrated. I think having the ability to run all your machines Inna shared collective with group policies and high controls really helped Windows adoption.
Even today there isn’t anything quite like Windows polices. Sure you can get the same effect on Linux but it takes a lot more work and requires more scripting and customization. I think Apple and Android have equivalent management tools but I don’t really know how they compare in practice.
Apple and Android have equivalent management tools
MDM (mobile device management) is where Apple shines. Android has some features for it as well, but supported devices can be spotty. Samsung has their own thing going as well.
If you want to administrate a fleet of mobile phones and iPads, Apple has the most complete and easy to use platform. Their devices also get OS updates for longer than typical Android devices.
It is best to try and keep Geopolitics out of software
You can’t get rid of Windows as it is deeply entrenched and heavily depended on.
This is exactly how I felt when I switched to Linux and it “clicked”.
This is what personal computers were supposed to always be like before Capitalism ruined it for everyone.
Nothing wrong you say. Sure, noooothing can go wrong with this approach (I am looking at climate changes, fucking plastic in living organisms, wars not stopping even for a day, idiots in positions of power). Cool story bro, does not work
I feel like linux demands an understanding of the relationship between hardware and software more than windows does.
Yes, when we install Linux on something that didn’t ship with Linux installed.
But in an apples to apples scenario - pre-installed OS provided by the manufacturer, it’s Windows that comes with more bullshit.
And there are (finally!) plenty of options to buy a pre-installed Linux computer, today.
It’s a tiny fraction as many as pre-installed Windows or Mac, of course. But it’s still plenty. There’s a half dozen companies with solid reputations and hardware specialties, and I only need one.
That just depends on what you want to do
If you’re a tinker on Linux then you will be on Windows
If you’re the lowest common denominator on Windows then you will be on Linux
Linux just makes it easier for the user
It is fun to talk to older people who have never used anything but DOS/Windows
They insist that they need a GUI as they keep trying to use CLI tools like it is 1980.
As some who first tried Linux in the '90s, uses it at work, and has it on at least one device at home, I disagree. Linux got easier, but so did windows. I do t daily drive Linux because software I need just will not run on my current distro as-is and would take hours of my time to troubleshoot and maybe get working.
When I went to upgrade that distro (Mint) it also had all kinds of stuff that required manual intervention that someone without Linux knowledge would have had a much harder time with
RTFM is not a working formula. Because most people skip reading the manual for one simple reason, the manual is hard to read.
I remember my early arch days when asking a question about an issue I’m having was always met with a wikipage I already read but did not understand.
Rather than pushing for a magic manual, the best is to provide sane default or point to tutorials.
Aaaand why is that? It’s hard to read because…?
We need individuals like you to help it out. It’s like wikipedia
It’s hard to read because it’s a manual made for technical users.
On Linux most of the software is made by freelance developers who often forget that all users are not technical and even if they are they don’t want to be forced to interact with technical stuff. For the same reason I don’t want to daily-drive gentoo, sometimes I don’t want to read the manual.
I happen to be a contributor on multiple FOSS project and most didn’t have a docs directory in their repo or website, let alone an user guide. That’s fine for a CLI program to rely on wiki/manuals but graphical apps should have a user guide on their website. Working on documentation is a thankless job in FOSS spaces.
They are hard to read because they are written to explain concepts to people who already understand them. Handy if you just need them for reference. Useless if you are trying to learn. Which is why RTFM is often bad advice
I’m currently trying to migrate my stack on my VPS from docker to podman. Bonus points if I get it running rootless.
Somehow, podman compose just wouldn’t work with my existing docker compose file. I quickly found out that podman has many options, but quadlets are preferred. It took me a while to understand what they even are and their concept. I did get the idea and the concept from the docs, but everything else was demonstrating how to set up a very simple one (think a hello world container). Or I found some blog posts with ready made complex examples for some random stacks that were way over my head. But a simple tutorial on how to map the fields/parts of a docker compose to a
.container,.networkor.volumefile for my stack consisting of several containers in a few networks with a reverse proxy in front of it? Nope.I’m the end I found podlet and used that to convert a docker-compose. While the result wasn’t completely working (e.g. a problem with some environment vars that got passed and switched in a few “layers” that podlet understandably messed up), it was enough to understand all of it with the docs and complete the quadlet. Now I just need to experiment with the rootless part.
Currently, my first and foremost pet peeve is, that different distros use different approaches and utilities, but many blog posts or guides don’t tell you what distro they’re for. If you google the problem and find the fourth guide on how to solve it and realize halfway through, that it’s again e.g. for Debian based systems, while you’re running on SUSE or RedHat or Arch or… can be very frustrating.
Is there no tutorial for mapping docker compose into .container, .network, .volume file at all? That’s unbelievable, one would expect there surely is one.
Maybe I didn’t search right, but since I found podlet first, while looking for a tutorial, I was lazy and gave it a try. It’s result was enough to get me there. Maybe, had I completely read the podlet docs and checked all optional arguments, o could have gotten a perfect result. But that way, I learned better about quadlets.
It’s hard to read because people lack background knowledge. Man pages were horrible for my first 15 years or so.
Once you have the skills that you hardly need to read them they’re fine.
That’s why everyone wants to look it up on stack exchange, they want the answer, not an unending series of lessons
Man pages are still not great on Linux. Very few examples with common use-cases and explanations. I shouldn’t need to visit the Arch wiki.
OpenBSD man pages are a delight in comparison, and really all you need to learn how to manage the system.
tldris the application you need.This is a great project. Should replace man for noob distros.
Then people need to be taught how to read better. Not Linux’s fault the education system was dismantled over the years.
What an arrogant comment 😂
The best is when people tell you to RTFM and the information you need just straight up isn’t there.
just google it and the google is just a reddit post that says [deleted]
Or “if you’re having trouble there is no manual, FAQ, or wiki, just join our discord troubleshooting channel” vomit
And after hours of troubleshooting, you give in and join the Discord where you’re promptly ignored.
Or if you’re really lucky, people are willing to help, so you spend hours more troubleshooting, often repeating many of the same steps, only for all of them to give up too. (As was my experience when I tried to switch to Linux Mint.)
Or isn’t deleted but either has no replies or replies that didn’t help them either
Those cases where the users didn’t WTFM
Git gud
/s
man 1 git-gud
It’s the same way you gotta ask if they turned it off and on again. Too many don’t even look up the manual, now yes. Some hostility is just plain hostility, but the phrase is there for a good reason.
Maybe if the people giving advice would RTFM, they’d know what isn’t in it.
Plus I don’t want to spend 30 minutes to wade through pages of documentation for a 5-word command that makes my speakers work.
I know some of the issue is the manuals themselves are out of date. Ive literally had to have something explained to me via the developers Discord. I hate going to a projects Discord in order to find out crucial info.
Sometimes manuals are in 5 different places so you don’t know what applies to your specific system.
I usually try and improve the manuals when I do come across this with a quick PR, when I have time.
Lol or one of an app’s dependencies gets an update, but it takes 2 weeks for the updated flatpak app to be downloadable.
Linux is nice, but I wish there weren’t so many distros. The entire project should be managed by a central authority that uses violence to punish deviance, like Lenin said.
No.
removed by mod
Who’s that?
Makes sense
Linux isn’t hard anymore because I have ChatGPT to come up with all the command lines for me. And they work 60% of the time!
I mean, this is why I have been using Mac since 1984. It’s not hard and it pretty much just gets out of the way and lets you do stuff. (Caveat: Gaming. It really doesn’t let you do gaming without jumping through a number of hoops.)
The fact Time Machine immediately hassles you to set up a drive and back up your stuff is so great for the average user. I’m sure both Linux and (I know) Windows have something similar, but it’s not immediately active and trying to get you to save your stuff. TM has saved my bacon numerous times and I love that it’s one click and a fresh HD for users to get it set up.
I will always remember my first experience using MacOS: I am comfortable with computers and a relative needed help with their recently purchased macbook. I had plugged in a USB stick to transfer some files and was done and wanted to eject it. I spent way too much time than I care to admit, trying all possible options, right-clicks, settings, everything imaginable, to eject the damn thing.
It was impossible to me to find the simplest operation with a USB stick, something required to operate it. I capitulated and looked online. The solution? I had to drag and drop the USB stick icon into the trashcan!?!?!?
To this day, I will never understand the absolute ridicule of this and I will never comprehend how anyone is expected to figure it out on their own. And this is from the OS touted as the most user friendly and intuitive. Go figure.
Edit: this was a long while back, no idea how it is nowadays.
Yeah they have an Eject symbol by it multiple places, plus the trash can turns into an eject icon, plus of course the menu item you can use under the File menu now, so it’s pretty well covered. Especially compared to the (to me) fairly inexplicable Windows “USB” blob that appears in the controls area to let your right-click and eject. But that was a definitely a thing back in OS 9 and prior, haha. I have no idea whose idea it was to make that the disk eject interface. I’ve heard the same rant multiple times for sure.
Anyone who uses Finder as a file manager is a masochist. That’s the worst file manager I’ve ever used. And that includes shitty Android file manager which have more ads than file managing capabilities.
Shocker, you bought hardware with a compatible OS. That’s the dudes problem. He didn’t buy hardware compatible for Linux. 1984, so I know you are well aware, you have to buy hardware that is compatible with your OS.
Yeah, but the challenge is knowing what is compatible to some degree…
Nonsense. It has always been listed on the box if there is support. Same as all the other OSes. How many times have you bought random used Windows hardware to see if you could install MacOS on it? Nobody buys random Mac hardware to see if they can install Windows on it. There were Hackintosh’s but when some didn’t work out, nobody blamed MacOS. Back when Windows ran poorly on Intel Macs because of poor support, Nobody blamed Windows. It’s a double standard.
It has always been listed on the box if there is support.
Say what, now? I have yet to run into a Linux site that casually lists what all hardware is compatible before you start trying to install stuff. The same with Windows, for that matter, although knowing Microsoft there may be a database squirreled away somewhere.
I’m sure both Linux and (I know) Windows have something similar, but it’s not immediately active and trying to get you to save your stuff.
Funnily enough, Microsoft does try to do this with OneDrive, prompting you during OOBE. A lot of the tech space demonizes Microsoft for exactly this.
Which to be fair, a lot of that does come down to legitimate concerns (such as being far to eager about this even when you say “No” and not offering a “don’t ask me again”) - but at the same time, some of the push (likely) comes from a good place of trying to set up backups for users.
It’s definitely not completely altruistic - companies hardly ever are (cough cough, forced online accounts). But I also don’t think it’s as black and white as “Microsoft is bad for this”. And though even I complain about this, the same goes for Microsoft being aggressive with Windows Updates.
AFAIK, OneDrive is very different from Time Machine? More similar to iCloud? It’s not a backup, it’s just an online sync.
The MS equivalent of Time Machine is File History, I believe. (Ie, a versioned backup that fills the hard drive until it’s out of space and then starts deleting the oldest copies of files.)
Ah, perhaps that’s what I’m missing. I do have a Windows install for playing the odd games every now and then that don’t support Linux, but I don’t actually back anything up since all of my games are via Steam and utilize Steam’s cloud saves for syncing (and these games are usually multiplayer online-only games and wouldn’t need syncing anyways). I know that when I originally used macOS (back during “Mountain Lion” I believe?) Time Machine did utilize an external disk, but I would’ve thought these days it also leveraged iCloud Drive.
I did know about Windows’ File History mechanism, but I also made the assumption that Windows tech would integrate with OneDrive since they’re made by the same company… doing a quick search though seems to indicate that it “should” be possible, but actually getting it to do so definitely doesn’t have a simple toggle like you’d expect.
That’s what I get for speaking about features I’ve not used myself, whoops!
In some ways it’s just a technical difference (syncing vs backup “snapshots”). It’s totally true that if you throw away a file out of iCloud or OneDrive, there is (I believe) a window of opportunity to get it back out of the cloud.
But I also don’t think either let you get back a version from 3 weeks ago, for example, which is where versioned backups like Time Machine and File History come in.
Honestly, it is good to have both enabled for various reasons, not the least of which is just having a copy of your files offsite.
OneDrive does offer restoration of individual file versions or even the entire OneDrive contents (for things like ransomware attacks). Details are here
I think OneDrive is a pretty good (but paid) backup utility especially for non-technical people. There are a lot of things that I could nitpick on, but for some of the older people (octogenarians) that I am the family support for, I set it up and anytime I interact with their computer I click on OneDrive to ensure it is replicating. I very occasionally have seen a single file not replicating, but never have I seen it fail completely. These people previous had NO backups of any kind.
I use it myself as an additional backup location, but not in the way most people would.
Yeah, I just meant that I think that you can’t roll back to a version 3 weeks ago kind of thing, which is what Time Machine and File History do. Synchronization vs a true versioned backup.
You absolutely can roll back to previous versions using the steps in those links. I believe it has a 30 day limit, but that is pretty good for a consumer product.
I’m probably gonna get hated on for this but here’s my story:
About 3 weeks ago I bought a new gaming laptop with no OS with the intention of installing Linux myself and ditching Windows.
I’d read a lot online about how Linux was now competitive with Windows as Linux emulators could run Windows games with a 10-15% boost in performance. I read that it was all a case of finding the right distro and that Linux is much more user friendly and compatible now. So I did a little research, made myself a ventoy boot USB with Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, Pop, Garuda and Fedora to see which one I liked best.
None of them worked properly. All of them had weird little quirks. Some I could live with, some were completely infuriating. So l did a little tinkering as I was determined not to give in. None of the distros detected my hardware properly, and so I went away found forums with similar issues and I fixed most of them. However, no matter what I tried I could not get the laptop speakers to work. No problem, I thought, I’ll be either using headphones or BT to my soundbar (as that worked fine). So having given up on the speaker issue, I downloaded some games. In all of the distros they ran like shit. Sound bugs, laggy game play, some wouldn’t play at all. Again, I tried tinkering with the settings, using a different version of proton, different sound drivers, different graphics settings, different commands and programs which might solve the issues. No. Each different distro threw up different issues which I spent hours and researching and experimenting. I tried a few more distros and found new issues which needed more research and more experimenting.
Over the three weeks or so I was trying I became irritable and depressed. I’d spent a lot of money on the laptop and I was unable to use it because no matter what I tried, even with relatively low resource hungry games, they did not run well at all, and even linux itself seemed slow and unresponsive in comparison to what I was used to.
So after hours and hours of climbing the walls and snapping at my wife and neglecting my kid, I downloaded Windows. And everything just works. There are bespoke programs for my graphics card and everything in my steam library runs beautifully with very minimal tinkering. So now I have a dual boot system, windows for games only and Linux for everything else.
I hate that I’m still enthralled to Windows, but seriously, Linux is just not ready for mass adoption. If something doesn’t work on Windows , it’s usually a case of just downloading the correct driver and Windows normally knows which one you need. If something doesn’t work on Linux it’s a slog through paragraphs of text which all assume some basic knowledge of coding or Linux’s file system or some other jargon, or watching endless YouTube videos and then still getting nowhere. As a working husband and father I just do not have the time to put into it.
Tl;Dr - Windows is much easier than Linux. That’s why everyone uses Windows.
You sound like a Windows power user and of course linux will be harder because you are not used to it.
I had a simmilar first months until I was used to linux. Now I find many things much more convinient in Linux.
And yes there is hardware that works in windows but not in linux like there is hardware that wont work in macos. But over time you will only buy stuff that is compatible and you wont think about it anymore.
Thats why I recommend dual booting at the start because sometimes you need to get shit done without trying to learn the new way and so you don’t get burnt out. But if you keep at it you will start to use windows less and less.
Well, that sounds like issues with your specific hardware, because that’s definitely not the usual Linux experience.
Tip for next time: find some distro that has up to date kernel. Ubuntu, Mint and Debian are definitely not good if you have very recent hardware, they stay on old kernels for quite a long time. And drivers are in the kernel.
I have to disagree about Windows being easier, but that’s fairly subjective. What’s 100% objective is that it’s definitely not the reason everyone uses Windows, the reason is much simpler: it came with their machine.
Anyway, I recommend Nobara for gaming - it’s basically Fedora, but preconfigured for gaming and general normal use.
Thanks, I’ll give it a whirl and see how I get on.
Oof. Sorry you had such a bad experience.
Pro tip for others: It takes time for volunteers to reverse engineer new proprietary laptop hardware.
If the laptop manufacturers aren’t advertising Linux support, it’s up to the community to play guess and check, to figure out what the proprietary drivers do.
You might get lucky and pick the same exact model as a passionate reverse engineer. Or you might not.
With old stuff, your odds are much better that someone has figured it out for you.
For new hardware, it’s still essential to pick a vendor that chooses to write and release Linux drivers.
This will get better when truly open hardware platforms gain popularity.
Yeh, I’d come to that conclusion myself. The laptop I bought was a 2023 lenovo legion 9i which is have discovered is not a particularly popular model but shares a lot of it’s DNA with the far more popular 7i. So I figured most of the software and fixes would be cross-compatible. Turns out that I was wrong. I’m not giving up hope yet, and I’m not gonna get rid of the laptop anytime soon. Maybe they’ll be a new kernal that come out which fix the issues I’ve been having.
This is much less a Linux problem and much more a communuty one. We really need a semi-centralized place to get recent linux info and a nice guide on linux specific knowlage for beginners, but then people will cry needing to learn what wayland/x11 and such are will turn people away. Whoever was telling you windows games 10-15% faster were fucking dumbasses, I have zero problem running any game I want on my machine but the preformace has been exactly the same as windows (which I still consider a win for linux)
The next big problem is people going “We don’t need gaming distros” when those gaming distros are made to solve this exact problem. If you haven’t already try out Bazzite or Nobara and it might “just work” (no promises tho). But a distro like Mint/Pop/Debian are going to have a lot of missing drivers/package updates for the latest hardware, Fedora needs relatively a lot of post-install tinkering to get things working since they only ship opensource packages by default, Garuda is not ment for beginners and uses a more unstable kernal for preformance, but you still need to tinker with drivers. Bazzite and Nobara are the two big distros that aim to “just work” out of the box and even re-package some software with the latest fixes. And incase you don’t like the look of them, you can install whatever theme over KDE Plasma you want
Ofc I get if your tired of hearing “just install this distro instead” but a lot of advice is coming from others who also don’t actually know whats going on under the surface, and sometimes your hardware just isn’t supportes (not a linux issue but a manufacturer one). And if your at the point where using windows for gaming works and thats enough for you, nothin wrong with just using windows
To be fair, you most likely have nvidia in your PC.
As I see it, the distos you tried ether have a gui to install those proprietary drivers, but are on old kernel or no GUI to install them, but a recent kernel.
Installing nvidia drivers on endeavourOS is very simple and you always get the newest fixes after writing “yay” into console.
Installing apps is as easy as “yay [desired app]” and then choose out of the list. (Just don’t take the “-git” versions but the “-bin” versions 🤭)
After that, install steam out of multilib and make sure to pick the right vulkan package (based on GPU driver in use)
All this nvidia stuff is so complicated on Linux, because nvidia is not caring enough about Linux yet.
Only way to fix that is adoption.
Even Nvidia drivers have come a long way recently. I used to always have a windows setup and used it more than Linux whenever I was off work, but this year I was finally confident enough on Linux to ditch it. I have Nvidia gpus on all my PCs, with both Intel and AMD cpus, and they are all working perfectly fine with multiple 4k screens.
So far there were only two games I was unable to play on Linux - Demoncrawl and Inzoi. And the second is filled with reports saying it works ootb for other Linux users, so if I had tried to tinker I could probably get it to work. (I haven’t had to tinker with anything else tho).
Thanks this is very helpful. I was steering clear of the more terminal heavy distros as tbh I find the terminal a bit daunting as a noob. I’ll give it a go tho.
Don’t know about your hardware. I don’t own a notebook anymore. I read good things about the AUR package optimus-manager-qt for hybrid GPUs (iGPU+dedicated GPUs) but also that it can be a bit tricky.
I exlusively used dedicated Nvidia cards in desktop rigs with Arch & EndeavourOS since 2017 when I switched from Win 10. Additionally exclusively KDE.
Though I had a bit of experience with other distros and desktop environments before my switch I’d wager to say you should give one last try to EndeavourOS, even if you have barely any Linux experience. I mean you had so many failed attempts. One more won’t hurt.
Use EndeavourOS not arch. First, it uses the standard initial graphical system-setup (Calamares), then it comes with some good default settings & tools and finally a welcome screen which features links to additional tools like mirror selection (for faster updates), update shortcuts, package search, docs/wikis/forums or logs.
I’d select KDE in Calamares and I’d install the graphical package manager octopi via “yay octopi” after system installation and activate yay for the AUR in the octopi settings as e.g. optimus-manager-qt (which you should only use with hybrid GPUs) is only available in the AUR. You need to click the alien symbol in octopi to install from the AUR.
The AUR (Arch User Repository) is the repository for packages not available in the main repositories. AUR packages are user contributed where the maintainers write a so called PKGBUILD file which contains the steps to build and install a package from foreign sources (e.g. from a debian DPKG or from github sources). With octopi you can quickly open the PKGBUILD file and look from where the maintainer pulls the parts of the package.
The amount of software available in the AUR is gigantic but it can potentially contain malware (which happened a very few times). But you’ll have a hard time finding users who actually had that happen to them. A good indicator that the package is ok are its number of votes. But if you really want to know you have to check the sources in the PKGBUILD. If they come from github, you could check the github-repo and only it’s stars (votes) if you won’t read the sourcecode.
That all sounds mighty complicated but it isn’t. Just try to install packages from the main repo. Click the alien symbol only when you don’t find something official.
So with octopi and the welcome screen you don’t need to enter any terminal commands for package installation or the system update. I had only a few updates where problems occurred in like 7 years and they were always fixable. The Arch Wiki and the Endeavour forums could always help.
I can’t guarantee you’ll have a better experience than with the other distros and you will meet some bumps or roadblocks for sure. I’m not playing the the most current games and a lot of retro games via Lutris and Heroic. For some of them I had to tinker a bit and try different starters than Steam. Arma, Path of Exile, Sekiro (fitgirl repack), Diablo Immortal were tricky but all the steam games or e.g. Witcher 3 via Heroic run very nice.
On the screen where you login (usually SDDM) you can switch between Wayland and X11. Which are two very different Display managers. Wayland is the replacement for the very old X11. It works way(land) better with AMD GPUs than with Nvidia which are usable though but work much better on X11. Games can be faster on wayland for Nvidia than on X11. But things like missing color management in nvidia-settings make me stay with X11.
Thanks of taking the time to write all this. I’ll certainly give it a go once I’ve worked up the will power to go back down the rabbit hole!
Oh yeah as mentioned in a comment below Nobara based on Fedora could also be a very good distro if you’re out for gaming.
All this nvidia stuff is so complicated on Linux,
I installed mint, opened the driver manager, picked the latest NVIDIA driver and it just worked. No idea what everybody is talking about …
Granted I’m on an old 1080ti, so maybe that’s it …
It is just to get newer versions of the proprietary drivers faster, and to have a more similar environment as developers. (Like if a feature of the driver is dependent on a new API just added to nearly most recent kernel)
Kernel updates can bring better support for different hardware which as well can influence how well the GPU drivers work, like, improving them.
😇but nice to hear that it works on your machine well 💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
I have similar experiences. I converted my surface laptop to linux and overall I’m happy that I did, but games that ran fine on windows now are unplayable because I can’t get it to work properly, neither with wine, unbottled nor proton.
I still have a W10 gaming pc and I planned on converting it to linux with pop os being the frontrunner, but I will keep it on dual boot with the fallback scenario of just going with W11. Linux is not and might never be ready for mass adoption because it is simply too reliant on volunteers, forums and self-troubleshooting for that.
Microsoft and Apple provide OS’es that are thoroughly tested and validated with firmware and drivers that are specifically written for them by people whose job it is to do that. It might not always be perfect, but it usually does what it needs to do right away.
Oh interesting! What model surface do you have? I have a surface pro which I was considering converting (before the above nightmare) but have read that MS have made it super difficult for anything later than a 7 and I have an 8.
It’s quite easy actually. Just google linux surface and you will find the project website where they list all surface models and potential issues with installation guidelines. I have a pro 8. The only thing not working are the cameras as nobody has figured out the drivers yet.
Edit: Project GitHub page https://github.com/linux-surface/
Wait, what brand/model laptop did you get?
A lenovo legion 9i
Ouch, the legion series has pretty bad compatibility.
So I’ve learned! I’m no programmer so I guess I’ll just wait until the software catches up. Hopefully won’t be too long!
I don’t even understand the question.
