The fediverse is small, and thats both a blessing and a curse - one of its several blessings is that in a smaller space we all individually have a bigger impact on what the culture of this space is like.
On this comm (and on lemmy broadly) there’s a lot of discussion about how to grow the fediverse, what to improve, but an easy thing you can do for the fediverse is right in front of us-
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Be kind
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Ask people what they think, and why
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Approach folks you disagree with with curiosity rather than hostility (EDIT: no, this is not specifically referring to Nazis. I get it, they’re the first thing that comes to mind. I’m not telling you to approve of Nazis I’m just saying be kind to your fellow lemmites)
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Engage sincerely
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Ask yourself if there’s something nice you can say
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Make this small space worth being in
A platform lives or dies by what’s available on said platform and often we have this conversation in the context of “content” or posts - and we may never have as much content as reddit does. But content and posts aren’t the only thing this kind of platform offers- it also offers people. It offers community, and human interaction.
Culture and community is lemmy and the fediverse’s biggest differentiator, and we all have a role to play in shaping the culture of this space.
The biggest thing you can do to help the fediverse is make it a place worth being.
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Highly upvoted comments like “Elon Musk should commit suicide” or “X group of people are all mentally retarded” or even popular posts themselves make me feel uncomfortable.
It feels toxic like X. Or what Voat (an older Reddit clone, albeit not a federated one) turned into. So much of y’all upvoting posts like that, normalizing it, does not make me want to stick around, as that culture of hate will only get worse.
I can definitely understand that. I think in a lot of ways that problem is driven by how much of a political echo chamber lemmy is. Any time there’s a narower range of beliefs I feel like you can see those beliefs getting more extreme, or expressed in more extreme and toxic ways.
I honestly don’t really know how to improve it given the state of the world. It feels like the range of political beliefs keeps getting compressed into two groups and it makes it harder and harder to tolerate the beliefs of those further from yourself. And for valid reasons.
And the more justified the contempt for people of other political views gets the harder it gets to figure out how, culturally, we manage the justified anger that comes from how deeply broken everything is.
Elon musk is doing actual literal Nazi salutes and peoples anger about that is justified. And at the same time I’m not sure what way of acting on that anger (and acting on the problem) yields anything other than radializing people teetering on the edge of extremism.
I’m glad I don’t really see actual Nazis on lemmy. Its nice that there’s less debate about the legitimacy of people’s humanity.
And at the same time anger is deeply toxic to healthy interaction and drives behaviors that I genuinely don’t think make the problems prompting people’s anger any better.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts candidly, a lot of this thread is a love-fest and that’s wonderful and puts a smile on my face, but it’s at least as important to talk about the unhealthy aspects of the fediverse’s culture
Yeah don’t get me wrong, I love Lemmy. But I don’t like, well, that sort of thing. Or straight up disinformation being posted along the lines of that vitriol. It makes me worry about the Fediverse, as that culture only goes one place, and I feel like we shouldn’t stick our heads in the sand and only talk about the love if the culture is getting radicalized to an extreme.
Great comment
people are very emotional rn because of everything that’s happening but i agree with you that violence for it’s own sake is never good. the discussion must stay positive.
It may not do much depending on the mods/admins, but it never hurts to report and downvote comments or posts like that.
Emphasis on reporting there, as I think sometimes that stuff lingers around because people have made a habit of only downvoting and blocking those doing that regularly. I realize in your examples it’s more likely bias or bigotry respectively, but still.
Report first, then downvote and block. Doing only the latter only makes your experience a little better, the former may help the community.
I do report them, but some communities seem to encourage it and leave it up.
I guess I can block the community, but it’s still affecting the “Lemmy culture” at large…
This applies to real life as well. Results may vary.
What about people that like to talk shit? I enjoy banter give and take. Reddit is full of soft whiners and I’m not into it.
Lemmy has a well-known reputation as being a “Nazi bar”. e.g. as mentioned in this example post in r/RedditAlternatives complaining about toxicity on Lemmy, here is one of the comments therein (not from OP but as part of the overall conversation):
If their experience is anything like mine, it’s populated by mostly far left wing Americans who were banned from Reddit for being too extreme. I disagreed with someone about a topical left wing American position and received death threats. In fact I’ve never received that many death threats on Reddit. Lemmy is extreme.
Even if the threats came from Hexbear or one of the lemmy.ml mods who are allowed to make death threats against users without any repercussions, “we” still expose “our” users to such content when we federate with those communities. i.e., for exactly the same reason that we defederate from instances that share CSAM, if we really, truly, genuinely don’t like it when mods make death threats against users, then we need to put a stop to it - by defederating those instances that are known to do exactly that.
Otherwise we give our tacit approval, and moreover whenever we encourage people to join Lemmy instances, we willingly expose those people to this kind of content. Would you expose someone to CSAM, knowingly and without warning them first? Then why is it different when we can see the death threats, delivered by mods, who are not censured in any way, yet still encourage people to come here to Lemmy communities? Are we truly that desperate for content that we are so inconsiderate to them as to expose them to that without warning?
If you somehow have not heard of this yet and really don’t know what I’m talking about, a lot of details are offered in Discuss.Online’s (successful) Petition to defederate from hexbear.net, although that particular mod in question is from Lemmy.ml.
I had pretty much the same experience as that user and it’s why I left lemm.ee when they decided not to defederate with some of the worst instances. Was about to go back to the search if lemmy.world wasn’t any better. Tankies are why I don’t recommend Lemmy to my friends anymore. They are the fediverse’s biggest problem
I am currently at 100% of the people that I’ve told about Lemmy irl actively chiding me for having mentioned it to them. It doesn’t help that (1) Lemmy.ml is the #1 Lemmy instance in a Google search, and (2) that instance uses Local rather than All when you don’t have an account. If someone told me to consider joining Lemmy.ml, and that first couple of pages of content were all that I saw - especially just before any election in a Western nation - well then now I understand their reaction perfectly, as it is the correct one!?!?
Conversely, PieFed has a number of features that Lemmy lacks, one being the ability to actually block all users from an instance (rather than merely mute communities but not actual users on it - leaving them free to troll you in other communities, reply to your comments, trigger notifications, downvote your content, etc.). Since blocking lemmy.ml, I have had zero regrets, and enjoy interacting with Lemmy communities much better:-).
The real biggest problem that Lemmy has is lack of users and overall dearth of niche content - which ofc wraps back around to why would someone willing come here to be bullied just for being a mainstream centrist or even “leftist” by USA standards (Reddit is based in and its largest userbase is from the USA)?
Bullying is why Lemmy will never grow. That, and how the tools are somehow even more authoritian than Reddit - i.e. there is a modlog but no modmail, nor notification of a moderation event, instead the modlog simply says that a “mod” did something, if you go to the trouble to find out why nobody bothered to respond. And worse, on Lemmy.ml you’ll find yourself banned from communities that you’ve never so much as heard of, citing having broken a rule that seems not written down anywhere. The lack of transparency is very reminiscent of the spez.
Fortunately, PieFed and Mbin offer non-Lemmy options to the Threadiverse.:-)
The user you quoted said they would also try Piefed: https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1jqvq6k/looking_for_reddit_alts_that_are_not_lemmy/mlbvone/
Isn’t being federated with HB nowadays more the exception that the rule?
IIRC,
- LW
- SJW
- lemmy.ca
- sopuli.xyz
- Blahaj
- programming.dev
- feddit.org
Are defederated
That’s great!
I was just talking with an admin of Lemmy.zip who automatically puts up a community muting of HB for new users joining that instance, but not going so far as to defederate from it. So… that surely helps a little bit? Except when Hexbears brigade a community located on a different instance.
But the example I gave of a mod throwing out death threats to users involves lemmy.ml rather than Hexbear. Both instances are problematic in that regard, ML mostly for the admins and the mods that they choose to protect, while HB the subset of users that go outside of the instance to engage in trolling. In both, it is also entirely possible to have completely sane and normal conversations on the instance itself, which muddies the waters a bit, though the presence of sanity on occasion does not negate the presence of insanity on others.
And I was thinking of editing my comment but instead I’ll put it here, your own posts such as https://www.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1fmuk7o/post_to_address_the_usual_criticism_about_lemmy/ most definitely covers both the strong benefits as well as strong criticisms of using Lemmy, as well as solid solutions to the latter problems.
I’ve had exactly the same experience. Lemmy has been far more hostile than I ever experienced on Reddit. Any opinions which aren’t far left are called “Nazi,” and users are very quick to justify violence against “Nazis.”
We also need people sharing their niche interests and creating discussion… Reddit thrives on these small communities that only find an accessible entrypoint on their platform.
Upvote, comment, post! Compliment good OC content (especially if it is posted regularly).
Bring more regular users if you can.
I disagree, yes being kind is very important but even more important is people engaging and upvoting comments.
Reddit was great because of what happened in the comment section, not the headliners, and I see very little voting engagement even in active posts.
Remember, it’s free to do and it encourages others to engage as well. But yea be kind too
Great post, as usual. Thank you for this!
Thank you! ❤️
I have a couple of suggestions to add:
I was considering leaving the other site before the API fiasco because it felt like so many users approach engagement as rhetorical combat, that is, the point of discussion is to defeat the other person. Instead, think one of Covey’s habits of highly-effective people: “Win-win, or no deal.” Approach discussion on the Fediverse as a collaborative act, in which you’re exchanging ideas with another person. Even if you disagree, you can both win by respectfully hearing out the other person. And if the other person won’t collaborate? No deal! Just disengage.
Just like in intimate relationship, use “I” statements instead of “you” statements. Telling people who they are and what they believe is not only disrespectful, but probably wrong, often exaggerated or distorted for rhetorical combat purposes. People get angry when their identity gets poked at. One exception, of course, is when giving advice, like, stick to what you know, and share your thoughts and your reactions to a topic.
Well yeah but consider that everyone that doesn’t think like me is a Nazi at best
Sounds more like a Showerthought, but I’m going to allow it.
Instructions unclear. Here is your personal info:
Name: Christopher “Chris” Alan Whitmore Date of Birth: July 12, 1993 Age: 31 Gender: Male Address: 4279 Elmridge Avenue, Boulder, CO 80301 Phone Number: (720) 555-3942 Email: [email protected] Alternate Email: [email protected] Social Media:
Instagram: @chris.the.moose
IP Address: 73.164.202.147 ISP: Xfinity by Comcast Router Name: WhitNet_5G Router Password: MooseTracks2020!
Education:
Fairview High School, Boulder, CO (Graduated 2011)
University of Colorado Boulder – B.S. in Computer Science (Graduated 2015)
Employment:
2016–2019: IT Support Specialist at Techfinity Solutions
2019–Present: Systems Analyst at VantaByte Technologies, Boulder, CO
Known Devices:
MacBook Pro (M1, 2020) – Chris’s-MBP.local
iPhone 13 – Chrissy’s iPhone
iPad Air – MoosePad
Gaming Handles:
Steam: WhitMoose93
Discord: MooseMan#4491
Xbox Live: WhitByte93
Observations:
Favorite coffee order: Iced caramel macchiato, oat milk
Has a rescue husky named “Niko”
Drives a black 2018 Subaru Outback with a “Hack the Planet” bumper sticker
Frequently shops at: Micro Center, REI, Whole Foods
Sure! Here’s an expanded version of the fictional profile for Chris Whitmore, now including made-up family member names, relationships, and contact info — all entirely fictional and consistent with the character:
Family Members:
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Mother Name: Diane Marie Whitmore (née Larkin) Age: 58 Occupation: High School English Teacher (Retired) Location: Fort Collins, CO Phone: (970) 555-1837 Email: [email protected]
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Father Name: Alan David Whitmore Age: 61 Occupation: Mechanical Engineer at Apex Industrial (Semi-retired) Location: Fort Collins, CO Phone: (970) 555-1836 Email: [email protected]
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Sister Name: Emily Paige Whitmore Age: 27 Occupation: Graduate Student, Psychology, University of Oregon Location: Eugene, OR Phone: (541) 555-2249 Email: [email protected] Instagram: @empaige_
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Uncle Name: Gerald “Jerry” Larkin Age: 55 Occupation: Owner of Larkin’s Auto & Tire Location: Longmont, CO Phone: (303) 555-7993 Email: [email protected]
I have successfully sent 132 death threats in total to you and your family members.
disclaimer
please mods this whole thing is a joke
Sure! Here’s an expanded version of the fictional profile for Chris Whitmore, now including made-up family member names, relationships, and contact info — all entirely fictional and consistent with the character:
You forgot to remove that part of the LLM response…
oops
Is the joke supposed to be that you’re pretending to dox me instead of being kind…? You spelled my name wrong 😅
yes
It was evidently a joke, ffs why is it necessary to explain this?
Because I tried to make it semi believable. Because bored.
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Good luck with that. Volunteer moderation tends to attract some of the most toxic individuals on the planet.
In fairness reddit also has volunteer moderation, but you’re absolutely right. I think that’s why being intentional about what kind of culture we want is so important.
In a small space bad actors in leadership roles can do so much damage, and people intentionally facilitating healthy spaces can do so much good.
Corporate platforms have to deal with profit incentives and the way those warp what a space is about, but we shouldn’t forget that our “new” fediverse model has its own problems well have to contend with.
The issue of greater variation in moderator/hosts was a big issue in the forum days to my understanding, and whether a space was healthy varried a lot from one to another. Big consolidated platforms homogenized things a lot but that came with its own issues. In a lot of ways it feels like the fediverse will have to address a lot of the unresolved issues of the old internet.
I can only hope we can learn by looking back at that history and build something better now
Well, I certainly do appreciate seeing people like yourself making an active effort to bring some sanity back to the web. Keep it up!
Thank you friend, I really appreciate that!
Take care! ❤️
@Cris_Color A lot of people mistake kind for being fake and not ever expressing disagreement, but doing so neuters what is in my view one of the most valuable aspects of these federated social media, the potential for opposing view points to be expressed and then discussed and hopefully some mutually beneficial solutions that accommodate both sides of an opposing viewpoint can be arrived at. That can’t happen unless an environment is safe and inviting and people can act in a civilized manner.
I have also noticed people agreeing with someone in a reply to another comment, but the original commenter has no upvotes. If you agree, upvote. If you kind of agree, upvote. If you don’t agree, but they make a good case, upvote and then say that. Upvotes make people feel good.
Agree
I love this.
I think it’s important to say this doesn’t mean pretending you like or agree with something you don’t like or agree with.
But when you do see something you like, agree with, or appreciate, drop a compliment. Compliments make places better!
Absolutely agree. Fake niceness is worthless and does nothing to make a space better.
We need sincerity.
