I did not realize this was a thing until I just switched to AZERTY which… despite being marketed as being “similar” to QWERTY, is still tripping me up
Edit: since this came up twice: I’m switching since I’m relocating to the French-speaking part of the world & I just happened to want to learn the language/culture, so yeah
I’ve always wanted to use DVORAK but just don’t have the time to learn something so large and new (to me) at this stage of life. Gotta pick your battles.
Yeah, I remember being really interested in DVORAK when I was younger. But when it comes down to it, my typing speed is not really something that is holding back my productivity, so there is little benefit to be gained from switching.
Typing speed isn’t the only benefit to switching. Reduced finger and wrist movement have been a life saver for me
Yeah. If people stopped bugging me at work my productivity would 2x for sure.
Meanwhile my 110wpm on QWERTY is not exactly holding me back.
I used Dvorak for a couple months but every time I sat down I had to force myself not to revert to muscle memory. Also, at the time at least, I had to remap they keys in every game I played so they were spread all around the keyboard. Just wasn’t with it.
AZERTY is not really about being similar to QWERTY. It’s the French standard keyboard layout.
Similarly QWERTZ is the German standard keyboard layout.Most (European?) countries use some variation of QWERTY with the symbols and special characters moved around to fit their respective languages better. Over here in the Netherlands we are a bit of an outlier in the sense that we use the US layout of QWERTY, but with additional modifier keys to make special characters available (It’s called US International)
There is also niche layouts like DVORAK (optimized layout for English) and BÉPO (optimized layout for French).
What is the reason you switched to AZERTY, if I may ask? I’m quite curious.
Over here in the Netherlands we are a bit of an outlier in the sense that we use the US layout of QWERTY
Tell that to Microsoft! I remember people using Windows would complain their : turned into ± etc., actually I haven’t heard that in a while now, did they finally fix that or just change the layout switching hotkey to something one doesn’t accidentally press?
I think that finally got fixed several years ago. I do remember this exact problem though…
By default both the Dutch and US International layouts would be enabled if you set up the computer to the Dutch region. And you could switch between them (accidentally) by pressing some key combination. It was highly annoying…
Yeah exactly. The key combo was ctrl+shift btw
What is the reason you switched to AZERTY
Not OP but I would guess he wants full immersion in a new country with a new language. That’s still not a good idea IMHO. AZERTY is no different than QWERTY (except for a few keys) because you still move and distord your fingers all over the place whether you use one language or the other. I switched to the full “Colemak on US ISO keyboard” and my fingers have no problem writing in French too.
I’ve been using Dvorak for maybe like 5 years now. There’s like a 2 or 3 day period whenever you’re learning a new keyboard layout in which you can’t type at all lmao. QWERTY or Dvorak or whatever. Just takes a bit for your brain to adjust.
The interesting thing is tho, if I sit down at a computer I don’t use every day and start typing, I can type QWERTY no problem, but if I ever have to type QWERTY on my personal computer (lookin at you RDP), its really hard.
I’ve been meaning to try out a Colemak layout, since it tries to keep a lot of the common computer shortcuts in the same place. (Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V on Dvorak are in kind of an odd place and its a pain if you ever need to use them 1 handed, like if you’re holding a tablet pen)
How long did it take you to get back up to your old speed? It took me 1-3 mo. after switching. I think it helped that I used to look at the keys and when I converted I learned 100% touch typing.
about 1 month maybe to get back to full speed? I never really measured my typing speed before or right after switching so I don’t really know. I think nowadays i can type faster in Dvorak than I ever could in QWERTY, but thats probably just from using it a lot and generally needing to type more nowadays lol.
I went from 40-45wpm on Qwerty to 65-75wpm on Dvorak, but after I stopped practicing, I settled somewhere in the high 50s low 60s. I specifically measured because I wanted to be able to quantify the changes. Speed wasn’t my only concern, but it’s the biggest change. There’s no need to learn an alternative layout, but even people who don’t may benefit from a small adjustment like making caps lock a left backspace and learning to touch type. In retrospect, I would consider more of the alternative layouts before jumping to Dvorak, but I don’t regret it at all, even at work or with games.
QWERTZ, which is just the standard layout for Germany. It switches out Y and Z, adds Umlauts and changes the positions of various special characters.
I’m curious, what made you switch to AZERTY?
Moving to Belgium for a new job so…
Belgian AZERTY has the @ on a different key than the French one. No, don’t ask.
Yup… I had a suspicion that the Belgian system will somehow be different, so thankfully I didn’t find this out the hard way. I could have almost bricked my laptop login password that way…
Also it’s the first time I had to use my right hand to type the Alt key which is so trippy
Well, when you aren’t shackled to your new keyboard, be sure to enjoy our beers, french fries and chocolates, they are truly unmatched anywhere!
Also QWERTZ, but the Swiss version that has these guys on the umlauts with shift äöü -> àéè
What do you do when you want them capitalized?
There are two methods:
- You can use caps lock for the capitalized umlauts and caps lock and shift for the capitalized French accented vowels
- You can use the accent buttons and combine with a normal capitalized vowel. For example, the button between ü and enter is the two dots button ¨, so you press two dots, then shift-o and get a capital Ö. Same for the French accented vowels the two buttons on the left of backspace have ´ and ` (with alt-gr and shift respectively) and you can combine those with shift-e for É È.
The second method sounds convoluted, but you get used to combining keys anyway. For example for the circumflex ^ because â ê î ô û don’t exist pre-combined on this keyboard layout. The same goes for some rarer combinations like ï, which despite the dots isn’t a German umlaut, it’s an i with trema for use in French for example in haïr, to hate.
German only really introduced capitalized umlauts for printing around 1900, so people used to use the combinations of the vowel with e for capitalized umlauts in print. Then the first mechanical typewriters again didn’t all have umlauts, or sometimes had only small umlauts. The combinations with e is also used for systems that have technical limitations. If they are ASCII based for example. Therefore even today people are somewhat used to it, so if you were to write Oeffnungszeit instead of Öffnungszeit nobody would bat an eye.
Caps lock is a key I never want to touch but dead keys (for combining characters) are what one uses for accents (but not umlaute) in the German QWERTZ too.
It is so similar to QUERTY, that I just shrugged when I accidentally ordered the wrong 15 euro keyboard. So technically I also use QUERTZ, but I still tell my PC it is a QUERTY keyboard. Fun times when someone attempts to use my PC and gets confused.
Colemak-DH on a Corne (42, chocs).
Hello [email protected] :)
Been eyeing graphite though. Might make the switch over the summer when there is less workload.
I was on the same layout but both my cornes died recently. I miss it :(
Same here, Colemak-DH is dope
Are you aware of [email protected] as well?
Hah, I didn’t have that particular one in my subscription list actually. Just a bunch of other ones.
I actually can’t type in QWERTY anymore.
QWERTZ like any German. 🤷
I thought German would be QUARZ. /s
Settled on it after 2 years of Dvorak, 1 year of Colemak, and 1 month of Workman.
Though, I mainly use Plover stenography when I’m working, Norman for gaming, and Qwerty on mobile or as-needed (e.g. other people’s computers or while taking notes on my iPad for D&D)
This Heatmap is why I made the switch to colmak-dh.
I think this makes sense for people who type only in English. If you type in other languages, this becomes way less relevant.
Not to mention the limitations in hardware.
Yeah no definitely. This is a heatmap generated off of English words.
However Germanic/latin languages may be similar
I type in other languages as well on Colemak dh, it’s still way better
I type in English, Portuguese and Spanish (mainly in English because code, then Portuguese because I live in Brazil) and I use Dvorak. I don’t use accents or other special characters, but because I’m a “gringo” I get a pass.
French has the bépo layout which applies the Dvorak methodology to French
Swedish. Of course, these all lack three letters. And I don’t think this tool counts special characters?
I think I will bind E to my spacebar.
Lol yeah the spacebar is so much wasted real estate. Thats why ergo mech keyboards map it to a thumb cluster.
I’m French but I’m a programmer. I fully switched to standard Colemak in 6 months. There was no difference between QWERTY and AZERTY to me and I had pain in my wrists. Colemak removed that pain in a few weeks and I still get to keep the standard shortcuts (Ctrl+C/V…) because some keys stay in the same place. It’s annoying sometimes when you’re learning but it’s definitely worth it.
Standard US Dvorak, but with the modification of using Caps Lock as Compose key so that I can type øæåØÆÅ when I need to.
I made the switch in 2011, but I never bought into the typing-speed claim. Typing speed be damned, it’s just so much more comfortable this way.
Background:
I grew up with scandinavian keyboard layout in the 90s, but then two things happened almost at the same time:- I fucked up my msdos config, resulting in me having to use the default US layout
- I became interested in coding.
It didn’t take long to notice how much better US layout is once you need access to {, }, and @, so I became familiar with it. For a long time I swapped bac and forth depending on what I was doing. Then one day around the time when Walter White blew up Gustavo Fring it dawned on me out of the blue that qwerty was somewhat cumbersome, and I would most likely be using a keyboard recreationally and professionally for the rest of my life, so I might as well try to see if I could get used to something more comfortable.
Downside: Took me a while to get used to it. 6 months or so. A little more than that and my typing speed was up to what it used to be.
Upsides: More comfortable, Nobody wants to borrow my computer, and shoulder surfers have NFI what my password is based on what I’m typing.Dvorak for more than 30 years, because at the time, it was the only reasonable alternative.
I use Dvorak on a 36 key Corne.
I started developing Ulnar Tunnel due to having really bad typing form from never learning the correct way to type. I was never going to unlearn the horrible (but fast) typing form that I had been using for years, so I decided to completely relearn how to type from the ground up using a different key layout on a completely different keyboard layout. It was a long and arduous process, but now my wrist pain is completely gone, and my typing speed has recovered.
Ortholinear Dvorak.
There’s a variant of AZERTY devised by the AFNOR ( french standardisation agency) that improves on a lot of ways on the legacy AZERTY, by grouping accents, parentheses, quote marks, etc. and making keys combinations a lot less common. It would be quite easier to learn than standard AZERTY, and it’s quite easy to learn for regular AZERTY users too. Unfortunately, it’s almost impossible to find a keyboard or even keycaps with the corresponding markings. Drivers are available by following the link if you want to try it for yourself.
It looks like this :
As for myself, I touch type in French on a QWERTY keyboard with an AZERTY letters layout, because even legacy AZERTY keycaps are not that common, and neither are ISO enthusiast segment keyboards.
LDLC (online shop) has those new keyboards, but I don’t know if its worth it since the problem with all the standard layouts are the location of the letters in the first place.
They used to but it’s not for sale anymore. It was a really cheap membrane keyboard anyway, so not something I would want to use. I’m actually fine with the location of the letters, it’s the illogical distribution of parentheses, slashes, quotation marks, square brackets etc. that I find irritating in AZERTY. I wouldn’t want to relearn it from scratch, I just wish I could get my hands on some quality new AZERTY keycaps.
