As posted about recently in [email protected] and [email protected] it seems that @[email protected]’s stance on transphobia has not changed and his apology only seems to be that he was sorry he got caught and that someone leaked the DM. This is concerning for an admin of Lemmy.ml and the leader of the project. I don’t think this means we should stop using Lemmy, it’s open-source and even if they embed donation links, they can be stripped out in our fork. But it does make me wonder if we should consider defederating lemmy.ml on that merit. Since if they hold such views on trans issues, it’s very likely they won’t have any desire to act on that type of transphobia being expressed on their instance.
I know that Lemmy.ml has and does handle overt transphobia well, but I can’t speak to their ability to handle less overt or thinly veiled transphobia, and this incident doesn’t inspire much confidence either.
Edit: Since some people haven’t seen the original. I decided to include it here. Warning, it contains transphobia, if you don’t want to see that, don’t open the spoiler.
CW: Transphobic talking points
I’d really like to hear Feedback from Blahaj’s local community on this, I’m not as interested in outside opinions here so please try to refrain from top-level commenting if you aren’t from lemmy.blahaj.zone (I will ignore them if you comment anyway from a remote instance).
lemmy devs being bigoted it’s more likely than it think
i really wish there was a valid lemmy alternative software or wish postmill implemented atproto or ap :(
Migrate to piefed. Donate to piefed.
This shit ends when the problematic and cringe Lemmy devs lose the power of owning the platform. There are other mature activitypub projects, and literally all we need to do is support them.
Why is it not enough to just switch Lemmy server or block ml instances?
Cause devs have contorl over the software and can implement subtle ways to get people think ml instances are the real lemmy. EG suggesting it at the lemmy site for any newcomers, making its threads get slight priority in the feed of every and so on.
The problem with moving to another server software is that there’s a much bigger developer ecosystem around Lemmy. Other projects simply can’t match that.
Like, there are multiple Lemmy clients in Google Play and F-Droid, for example. There isn’t even one for PieFed in either store.
Would be so good to see
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Tankies showing us how close to right wing conservatives they really are. How unusual /s. Makes one look at this particular crowd’s big push to not vote in elections against a wannabe bigot fascist a little differently…
Makes one look at this particular crowd’s big push to not vote in elections against a wannabe bigot fascist a little differently
Maybe for some, but I’ve been saying for over a year that the “leftist” “don’t vote” crowd was actively shooting the cause the supposedly believe in right in the leg.
Nothing says “I believe in leftist ideals and the plight of the proletariat” like actively promoting pathways that are explicitly letting the Nazis take power.
I heard someone describe tankies as alt-left. E: haha you tankie fucks.
But he used the word bourgeoisie. That means it’s Marxist and left-wing. /j
Other reasons here as well to consider defederation
Isn’t lemmy already?
Yep, bad views don’t just stop at one particular thing. Flagship instances often go this way sadly, and thus should be defederated from unless they significantly improve.
I saw this earlier in [email protected] and it’s pretty bad. I’m in favor of defederation, at the very least to help cut some of .ml’s network effect on the Fediverse. Since many of their communities are insanely large and they’re also very well known for banning people for let’s just say less than justified reasons. Nutomic’s transphobia is really the last straw in my opinion. If people are interested in looking for alternative to popular .ml communities, [email protected] is a good place to look.
I don’t think anyone needs to stop using or break away from Lemmy like people say. Lemmy is open-source and can easily be forked. Lemmy’s devs don’t have the authority to deny people from using Lemmy either. Instances operate independent of them, and since many instances are already here and using Lemmy, switching to something completely different and incompatible would be extremely damaging.
I agree with you but I do want to clarify this point.
switching to something completely different and incompatible would be extremely damaging.
Since Lemmy uses the underlying ActivityPub protocol you can use something completely different and it is compatible. For example in response to this latest drama with Lemmy devs I switched to fedia.io, which is running on Mbin and not Lemmy. Mbin is compatible with Lemmy because Mbin also uses ActivityPub. The compatibility happens on a protocol level not the service level. You can go search up Mbin magazines (which is essentially the same thing as a community) and interact with the same way as you would with a Lemmy community. You can’t set up a community on an Mastodon instance because it doesn’t have that functionality but you can theoretically comment in Lemmy and Mbin communities thanks to the ActivityPub. You can also use Piefed as it fills the same social media niche. The platforms that are incompatible would be platforms that are not using ActivityPub.
Instance owners can’t just rip out Lemmy, shove in Mbin and call it a day, sadly it’s not that simple. But for the average user you can create an Mbin account and as long as the instance is federated with all the instances your Lemmy account was then you can subscribe to all the community you were subscribed to before and the only functional difference in your daily usage is the sorting algorithm (. For instance owners the only possible solution may to be have a migratory period where you have two instances running, so people could slowly transition from one instance to another but looking at how hard it was to get people to move from Reddit I think moving instances is a whole other topic.
I’m not saying people must move away from Lemmy but I do want to remind people that Lemmy is not the only option and that moving from Lemmy to something else in the fediverse won’t be as painful as moving from Reddit to Lemmy.
Instance owners can’t just rip out Lemmy, shove in Mbin and call it a day, sadly it’s not that simple.
That was really my whole point, since the databases aren’t compatible. A switch from Lemmy to something else would reboot the instance completely. But also it’s not necessary for instances that aren’t lemmy.ml. Maybe some instances out there are loyal to .ml but that doesn’t mean all of them are. This one certainly isn’t and neither is my main one dbzer0.
I’m not saying people must move away from Lemmy but I do want to remind people that Lemmy is not the only option and that moving from Lemmy to something else in the fediverse won’t be as painful as moving from Reddit to Lemmy.
That’s good, I see a surprising amount of people saying that users and instance owners should switch to piefed or mbin over this as a form of “boycott” which I think is dumb because we don’t have any onligation to give money to the devs, to support them, or even to federate with them. This instance banned nutomic for his transphobic rhetoric, and quokk.au defederates all of .ml as a whole.
This is one of the major reasons I’m supportive of Beehaw migrating platforms
Edit: didn’t realize which com this was on
Beehaw users and communities always give me good vibes. Even before I looked the instance up and saw that good vibes are its thing. And if that entire instance left Lemmy, I think that would be pretty sad because we need all of the good vibes and good people around here that we can get.
Admin Ping for @[email protected] to weigh in on this issue with her thoughts and opinions on the matter.
Nutomic was banned from this instance approximately 9 months ago when I first become aware of his stance. However, it’s not something I plan on defederating over unless it becomes clear that the instance as a whole is not acting on transphobic content or unless it becomes clear that the community strongly believes that we should defederate.
Yeah that’s why I decided to make the thread sooner rather than later. I wanted to get the community’s opinions on it and see what they think. I do think there is the risk of Nutomic and others refusing to action transphobic rhetoric similar to his own if it seems “respectful” and “logical”.
If that starts happening, we will defederate. But he doesn’t seem to be standing in the way of the rest of the instance staff from dealing with it as far as I can tell.
What statement about transgender people are we talking about?
Sigh, if you must know, here is the context:
CW: Transphobic talking points
I thought more people had seen this since it’s older and pinned in MeanwhileOnGrad.
allowing biological men to compete
I don’t go to this school, but this line seems irredeemably constructed.
This is baffling. How can you be so bad at communism that you think trans rights are something the bourgeoisie are pushing
Yeah. All transphobe considerations apart (and that’s something!), this is a terrible “marxist” take.
I’m disappointed in nutomic’s statements as well. I won’t be donating him any money, but it seems hypocritical to say you won’t stop using Lemmy, but you want to defed from .ml.
How? It’s free and open source software. This sentiment just seems dumb. Where’s the implication that using free and open-source software like Lemmy means you need to support the devs or federate with their server? I see no such rule, and it’s not like they can stop or disallow you from using it (nature of open-source).
Anyone can host an instance and choose to run it however they like, the devs have no control in how or why people use Lemmy. It seems like a lot of people have trouble grasping this concept.
I’m not talking about rules. How is using software maintained by nutomic fundamentally different from federating with an instance they run?
The same way that having code on your computer written by stallman doesn’t mean you support him or his views. Unless the creator backdoored it to do what they want against your authority, it doesn’t mean a whole lot.
OK sure, but how does federating (not even having an account here like me) with his instance mean you support nutomic or his views?
Using a discussion forum moderated by someone is a completely different thing than using code written by them. A mod or admin of an instance has power to shape discussion on that instance.
It’s not just about “supporting” him in some abstract sense, it’s about potentially exposing blahaj users to the very hate that blahaj is meant to be a safe space from.
When did I say that? I said we should consider defederation as a community because transphobic views of an admin are risky and may lead to inaction towards transphobia on that server. That’s the whole reason why we defederated feddit.uk before this, which is why I wanted feedback on this, from the local Blahaj.zone community.
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Are there ads on .ml I’m unaware of? I’m using Voyager and don’t see any. I can’t see how me using nutomic’s instance (or federating with it) benefits him any more or less than using his software project. As others have noted in this thread, moderation on .ml is generally excellent, and not tolerant of transphobia.
Ultimately, blahaj isn’t my home so I don’t expect a say in what you decide. I’m just sceptical of the logic here.
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I never really liked his ideas, trans-related or not, but why the hell was he saying all of that just for a (presumably) message about a Firefox plugin???
I think defederating almost any instance is dumb, not my instance though so do what you will.
Is this guy even real? lmao at this point he might as well admit to being a christo-facist
They’re doing what many TERFs do, trying to cover up their bigotry with politeness and trying to sound like it’s about logic or discussing the meaning of things. Trying to make their transphobia seem acceptable. Then they say trans people are unreasonable when they get called out or banned for their bigotry.
Well terfs are definitely nazis
yea let’s defederate.
somthin somthin terf-tankie-whatevr… somthin along those lines… i dun evn kno whad those words mean
- TERF = Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (transphobia)
- Tankie = Apologists for outright oppressive, murderous regimes like Putin’s Russia and North Korea
