I thought with the explosion of electric power and windmills and the electric vehicle boom, fossil fuels would not be required…
Yet, a lot of countries still generate coal and other fossil fuels, is it because there is still filthy amounts of profit there to be made? Maybe they are just so used to it they don’t wanna swap to another resource?
I thought with Solar panels being massively produced, it would sell like hot cakes and you’re literally having the power of the sun in your hand.
I don’t think the average person truly understands exactly how much of the stuff they use every single day is a byproduct of the petroleum industry.
The obvious ones are oils as lubricants and fuel to burn for vehicles, but it goes soooooooooc much further than that.
Here are some quick examples of things many people do not realize use petroleum byproducts in one way or another.
So while we very well may be able to stop using traditional fuel to run vehicles in the future we still have to find alternatives for a lot of other things. The industry is not going anywhere anytime soon.
Thing is, a lot of these aren’t that bad? Making an oxygen mask feels really different to just setting fire to the fossil fuel to shift a 3-ton vanity pickup truck half a mile to Starbucks. And lots of the others can readily be replaced. Clothes, for example: rayon from bamboo can replace a lot of polyester and nylon
Yeah we have stuff that can outright replace a lot of these things but for mist there is nothing else we have that can take over.
We are heavily dependent on oil even as we try to shift away from fuel as out primary means of transportation.
I recently set up some solar panels. Turned them on very close to noon. Well, look at that! So much power! Four hours later, i was getting 10 percent of that number.
I know that solar power levels change throughout the day. But when it’s put into concrete terms like “I can run my refrigerator on this … oh, only for 2 hours a day” it helped me really understand.
So to answer your question - we use fossil fuels in the grid to as a disposable battery to handle changes in demand and times when renewables aren’t available.
As for EVs - many train routes aren’t electrified. EV trucks are impractical for long-haul, and the infrastructure is nowhere to be seen. Even in EV friendly areas, it’s hard to find a charger that is easy to reach with a heavy-haul truck. That’s before we talk about whether there’s trucks to drive, and the cost of the truck. For individuals, an EV is simply beyond the finances of many people. Road trips are an edge case, but some people travel a lot for work and can’t afford to stop every 3 hrs for 30-60 min, if the charger is available, and twice as often in winter.
We are making progress on every front.
Geopolitics. Coal is available in tons of places and cheap to use and extract.
planes need oil, as do ships.
Ships can use sail.
Also, we don’t really need this much consumption.
You know how many ships are needed to transport the thousands of components in the vast supply chain of computer chips? its a lot
If shiping slows down, computer chips become more expensive. And the whole world relies on them for everything. That includes you.
i really doubt sail powered ships are as fast as oil powered ones
Good. I want less consumerism. I know it will effect me, but I already do my best to minimize my impact. Hearing the whines up materialistic shits will only make it better.
do you realize that if shiping became vastly more expensive then fertilizers will become more expensive and then so will food?? not to mention how much more expensive meds would get
the whole world relies on this, and its not just about consumerism
also no avocados if no shiping
Guess we better just ship fertilizers instead of tvs and phones.
Also, there are concepts for sailing cargo vessels
Also, we could make nuclear cargo vessels.
Saying we have to use bunker fuel to maintain our current life style or that we need to maintain current life style is just a lack of creativity and buys into the dogshit status quo that capitalism has trained into you. We’ve know about climate change for over a hundred years and every time anyone suggests doing anything about it, the cudgel of “whAT aBout tHe eCoNOmy!” gets brought up. I don’t care anymore. I don’t care about your pretty little life style. I don’t care about your 401k plan. I just don’t care.
well maybe you should care
You really want me to care about your convinces when you don’t care about the ecosystem?
Established supply chain, workforce knowledge. Energy density. Ease of use.
Energy density and entrenched profit structures are big ones for sure. :/
The cost of the raw material is low enough to make it a viable option for the time being. There are also costs associated with switching to renewable options, which makes the transition slower.
Think of it from the perspective of a coal plant owner. You’ve already spent millions into construction and maintenance, so you really want some return on that investment.
When the plant reaches its end of life, that’s usually the best time to start considering other options. If the running costs rise dramatically or you are required to modernize the plant, that could be another time to take a look at other options.
BTW this is the reason why environmental legislation is so important. Companies listen to money, and governments decide what makes economic sense and what doesn’t.
I don’t have the to write up a full explanation bc I am at the grocery store but this video covers it well Why Capitalism Loves Fossil Fuels
At least here (germany) its lobbyism and stability
the only way that fossils can compete to “basically free energy after setup” is that there is a law or something that raises the prices of renewables to that of fossils so that fossils can compete
also coal gets taxmoney to make it cheaperfossil energy plants also cant like be put on or off at any time. They often need a day on start or something so if one turns them off they are off for a while.
so they are used as a “baseline” while renewables can be put on or down depending on need (or run extra low to increase energy prices but psssss as they are not allowed to do so)cheap and easy.
It’s many thousands of years of solar power , concentated in to a storable, portable and fairly accessible and transmutable form.
Countries don’t “generate” coal and oil, they suck it out of the ground. It was generated by thousands to millions of years of life and accumulated geological processes.
cheap and easy.
My Gen X ass is obligated to respond “like your mom?”
Fossil fuels are actually older than the dinosaurs. Oil and gas form from ancient algae type organisms. Coal is from ancient tree type organisms.
I say type because they only resemble those, and aren’t closely related.
You’re trying to move something with the inertia of an entire planet’s economy, which represents an incredible, almost incomprehensible amount of effort. Inertia becomes an incredibly powerful force that inherently maintains the status quo when you’re talking about huge systems with vast complexity. Yes, there are real challenges (which can be overcome) and yes there is real opposition from entrenched interests who stand to profit (or lose) significantly, and yes there are governments who are myopic and moving far too slowly. But most people underestimate the size of the role that sheer inertia plays. Not even just in this situation, but in all sorts of different situations, especially when you’re talking about global issues or societal progress. Human minds and values cannot be changed with the snap of a finger. Individuals perhaps can, but as a civilization it often takes decades, or even centuries when the change is massive enough, even when technology itself moves much faster than that.
Even when the danger is clear, and the solution is obvious, and almost every government in the world agrees in a matter of weeks or months what approach they need to take (COVID-19), you can’t push directly through the inertia of society itself without consequences. Look how shocking the backlash was, and arguably that backlash is still occurring and potentially contributed significantly to serious things like the spread of measles and even the re-election of Trump.
Most if not all power used is generated almost instantly as needed. So when you look at solar (which is a great renewable) you run into the fact that it only generates power while the sun is out, and a specific amount of power.
This causes the problem of, how do you generate power at night and what do you do on rainy days or if a cloud covers the panels. You can substitute this with other renewable energy sources: wind, hydro, and nuclear, but wind has similar issues as solar and hydro and nuclear have huge upfront costs and take years to build.
So this is where coal and natural gas come in. Coal has the downside of being really bad for the environment but can start up within 10ish minutes of being needed. Gas is better for emissions (not great), but takes more time to startup.
A lot of companies use a mix of things along with buying and selling power with other companies (similar to a stock market). There are thoughts of trying to store power or looking at small scale nuclear plants.
Solar chart through the day:
Power use throughout the day:
Source: I work for a large power company
That’s where batteries and other storage systems come into play.
Ya! And there is a lot of research and investment into them. The problem is they lose capacity over time from being powered and drained (think phone batteries and other lithium batteries).
From what I know hydro batteries are actually really big with power companies. Basically pumping a bunch of water uphill when you have excess power, then using the reservoir like a hydro plant when you need power. They are really inefficient, but work surprisingly well at storing a lot of power
I’ve seen some videos talking about iron based battery tech. My understanding is that is doesn’t wear out nearly as fast as lithium based tech and less of a fire risk. Downside is that it is less energy dense, so doesn’t work for mobile applications. But that shouldn’t be a problem for stationary applications, like the power grid.
Yeah, people are working on it.
The EIA estimates that there’s about 30 GW of battery capacity in the U.S., mostly in storage systems that are designed to store about 1-4 hours worth.
That’s in comparison to 1,200 GW of generation capacity, or 400 times as much as there is storage.
It’s coming along, but the orders of magnitude difference between real-time supply and demand and our capacity for shifting some of the power just a few hours isn’t quite ready for load balancing across a whole 24 hour day, much less for days-long weather patterns or even seasonality across the year. We’re probably gonna need to see another few years of exponential growth before it starts actually making a big impact to generation activity.
They were still more expensive than fossil power on standby last time I looked.
Lots being installed around Australia and are a lot cheaper than gas power generation for covering peaks.
Can you show me the numbers?
The numbers I found unsubsidized gas is about USD0.5/kWh and battery is USD150 per kWh. This is a 10 minute search so the quality of those numbers are dubious, I’m prepared to have my mind changed.
Lazard is a pretty respected analyst for energy costs. Here’s their report from June 2024.
In the U.S., peaker gas plants that are only fired up between 5-20% of the time, the levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) is between $110 to $230 per MWh. The levelized cost of storage for utility scale 4-hour storage ranges from $124-$226 per MWh, after subsidies. Before subsidies, that 4-hour storage costs $170-$296.
Residential storage, on the other hand, doesn’t come close. That’s $882 to $1101 before subsidies, or $653 to $855 after subsidies.
So in other words, utility scale storage has dropped down to around the same price as gas peaker plants, in the U.S., after subsidies.
Money mostly. It generates a lot of profit and it costs money to switch. In many of countries oil, gas, etc. are like a huge portion of their GDP. It’s like trying to get people to eat less meat. It would be better and more environmentally friendly, but everyone is too dependent on meat.
This dependence on meat is mostly imaginary.
but it tastes so good…
Yeah, I remember. But how important is that?
not saying it’s important, but if you tell a meat-lover to give up meat they will say no. Maybe it wasn’t the best analogy…
Who else should tell them? Sure, it could probably have been phrased better, but the message stays the same. And I believe in the power of repetition. There’s still a very long way to go, worldwide. I’m well aware of that. But every journey is one step at a time.
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I think you’re under estimated how much fossil fuel are used and the electricity production from solar and wind farm.
It’s definitely possible to replace all fossil fuel by electricity, but it’s a massive shift involving multiple nuclear power plants (or the green equivalent which is even more expensive/complicated) , not a few windfarm and solar panel over the parking lot. And today there is no political will to do such massive investment, let alone the NIMBY
Because it is still the least expensive power source
Not accounting for externalities, but yes
Swapping entirely to renewable energy is cool and all but not as easy as “just use a bunch of solar panels???” The issue is that most renewables are some mix of a: unreliable, and b: geographical.
Wind isn’t going to be blowing 24/7 in most places, so wind is unreliable. The sun isn’t always shining in most places, so solar power is unreliable. Hydro is amazing if you have it, but it isn’t the kind of thing you can just build anywhere. Geothermal is also great if you have it, but again isn’t the kind of thing you can just build.
Meanwhile, the power grid requires reliability. It’s incredibly important. The obvious kneejerk response is “but batteries?” which would work and all but you’re basically suggesting we produce enough power during the day to cover usage overnight, which is a tall order. There’s also the fact that the kind of battery banks we’re talking about would be ruinously expensive, and probably some amount of dangerous.
Also, like other people have said: coal/gas are cheap and ubiquitous. Both of those words might as well be synonyms for ‘more money’. Realistically, that’s the primary reason.
