This relates to the BBC article [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66596790] which states “the UK should pay $24tn (£18.8tn) for its slavery involvement in 14 countries”.
The UK abolished slavery in 1833. That’s 190 years ago. So nobody alive today has a slave, and nobody alive today was a slave.
Dividing £18tn by the number of UK taxpayers (31.6m) gives £569 each. Why do I, who have never owned a slave, have to give £569 to someone who similarly is not a slave?
When I’ve paid my £569 is that the end of the matter forever or will it just open the floodgates of other similar claims?
Isn’t this just a country that isn’t doing too well, looking at the UK doing reasonably well (cost of living crisis excluded of course), and saying “oh there’s this historical thing that affects nobody alive today but you still have to give us trillions of Sterling”?
Shouldn’t payment of reparations be limited to those who still benefit from the slave trade today, and paid to those who still suffer from it?
(Please don’t flame me. This is NSQ. I genuinely don’t know why this is something I should have to pay. I agree slavery is terrible and condemn it in all its forms, and we were right to abolish it.)
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If you are genuinely curious, theres a collection of articles published by the Atlantic. It deals with the US but seems relevant to your question.
Thanks,I’ll take a look. I had the same question, plus none of my ancestors were in the US when this happened and I have no idea what participation the country we came from may have had. At the risk of sounding like “all lives matter”, is it not our ethical duty to fight inequity, injustice, any loss of human rights? Slavery and all that went within it might be one of the causes, but what people today are affected by is inequity and injustice.
It effects tons of people, yourself included, in ways you have apparently never stopped to consider. I don’t say this to be shitty, but I’ll be direct about it.
Your ancestors came here, as a privileged class, and built generation wealth in their family because others were denied it. Go ahead and accept that. It doesn’t make you a shitty person, mine did too, mine never amounted to anything but poor, white trash, but even they had benefits from becoming established in this country, at that time. So did yours.
The government hugely benefited from it and should be held responsible for that. Taxes come from us, the circle continues.
If you’re going to take issue with it, and not be a shitty person, realistically we can’t pay enough to replace what was denied them. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t find some nominal amount, but your right, we should also look for ways to try and fix what we can’t be replaced.
Your ancestors came here, as a privileged class
According to family legend, the first to immigrate was fleeing wars around the time of Bismarck. He arrived in new York as a teenager: penniless, illiterate, and not knowing anyone. He worked for years as a farm laborer before being able to buy his own land and bring over his family
First of all, anything that starts “according to legend” is typically not presented as fact.
More importantly though, your family arrived here white, after systems influenced by white supremacy had established a privileged system in their favor. He arrived with absolutely nothing, and in one generation he was able to afford to buy land and move his family here after him. Do you know why he was able to do that? I’ll give you a hint, people of color couldn’t. What your family were allowed to do as immigrants, was possible because people who came from families of slaves were not allowed to.
I told you the first time, my family was poor white trash too, amd we benefited from it. So did yours.
Kind of telling that you didn’t want to respond to anything else I said, just try to prove that you’re family had it worse.
At that point we should still be funding development in those nations, like for infrastructure and education, etc
Imagine you’re running a very long relay race. Just after the race starts, members of the other team jump out of the bushes, beat up your runner and tie them up. This happens for several laps until someone decides that this is probably bad so they stop beating and restraining you. But the race doesn’t stop and the positions aren’t reset, but the other team is like 20 laps ahead and allowed to finish. Is that fair?
Reparations would theoretically allow your team to catch up but former slaves and their descendants have never been allowed that. What’s more, in the UK, former slave owners were paid for the inconvenience of no longer owning slaves (edit: up until 2015!!!) while the former slaves got to continue living as second-class citizens for a while.
Also, saying slavery ended hundreds of years ago and no one benefits from it today doesn’t work because all slave-owner countries still benefit from slave labour in the form of generational wealth, advanced infrastructure and old laws that specifically aim to disadvantage black people (whether they were abolished or still on the books the effects are still felt). Imagine your great-granddad was able to build up a fortune, how likely would it be that your family would still be rich? Imagine your great-granddad lost every cent, how likely would it be that your family would be still poor? Sure, it’s possible that situations drastically over time but that’s the exception and not the rule. There are reasons why things are the way they are.
I believe that reparations should not be any lump sum of money but in the form of education, investment opportunities, resources and infrastructure. That way all persons living in former slave countries can benefit and pass those benefits down to their descendants.
Edit: I believe that up to last year Barbados went after Richard Drax for reparations due to his family’s direct involvement in slavery in that country. I don’t know how successful that was, but I support it.
Hell, this is the best and most comprehensive argument for the generational debt we as the global north and winners of colonialism owe the global south I’ve ever read.
I’ll definitely use this analogy whenever this issue comes up in my peer group.
Your analogy and argument is very well organized so I wonder how you think universal basic income could mitigate the negative impacts of generational wealth/poverty? In my mind, it is part of a solution to many social issues but I’m still learning. I know there are arguments that capitalism will just buffer against any implementation but I’m still forming my opinions.
Thanks, it’s something I’ve been thinking about for a long time since it was a big discussion topic in my circle for a while.
I haven’t given the same level of thought to universal basic income, but I guess it would be a start. What people really need is a way to not only survive but to build wealth and pass that wealth on to their descendants. Like I said in my previous comment, education, investment opportunities, infrastructure upgrades, etc. will go a long way towards that goal. In my mind, a universal income could be a part of that but not the whole solution. And yes capitalism will find a way to ruin it but we can always hope.
Another part in my mind would be estate taxes. If generational wealth wasn’t as impactful on our lives then UBI could serve a bigger purpose. If the playing field were more level for everyone, then hate or fear couldn’t errode it as easily. It’s not something we can see in a lifetime, but I hope that I can see us aiming at a useful target while I am still around.
I think UBI could help with the problem. It won’t be solved without other things though. If we pay for UBI by increase estate and inheritance taxes, that could go a long way. Basically make it so generational wealth slowly decreases over time. Obviously it’ll never be zero, because education, social connections, and things are also generational wealth, but it’d be an improvement to the way things are.
Basically, it’s not fair that someone is rich because their parents were rich and someone is poor because their parents were poor. The rich person should be less rich and the poor person should be less poor (on average).
Also, saying slavery ended hundreds of years ago and no one benefits from it today doesn’t work because all slave-owner countries still benefit from slave labour in the form of generational wealth
In addition to that, slavery was never ‘abolished’. Just go take a quick look into the mining or cocoa industry.
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I was thinking the same thing in my country. My grandparents immigrated. They had more to do with the French Revolution than the slave trade.
The argument goes, as a British citizen, you have and continue to benefit from policies that your government made a long time ago. Reparations are not a tax on you, but an expense the government should have paid at the time of the work, but instead it did things like kidnap people from their homes, transport them to where labor was necessary, and force them into work. Now, the people who are the descendents of the kidnapped folks are requesting that the bills their great great grandparents were never paid. To extend that, after slavery ended, many of those who had been enslaved were left disenfranchised, and impoverished to the point that there is almost no possibility of building generational wealth.
As for if this will open the floodgates or not, who knows. An argument could be made in both directions, it’s not as though governments paying one time sums to places is rare, and reparations for wars used to be pretty run of the mill.
The “floodgates” component of the question is the “slippery slope” logical fallacy.
Consider the present claim in isolation, not its relevance to other claims.
It is not a fallacy to consider it might encourage other claims. If I am in a classroom and I accept to give someone candy publicly, do you think everyone nearby will not be MORE tempted to ask too, compared to whether if I said no?
In both cases, asking costs almost nothing compared to the potential gains.
it might encourage other claims
… which would be considered on their respective merits.
I like this answer a lot. Objective, doesn’t answer what it doesn’t know for certain and gives context.
Your number is a bit off. It’s more around 569000 per person.
Who downvoted this? It’s correct.
£18.8 trillion divided by 67.7 million people is £278,000 per person.
That’s just not possible as a sum. 18.8 trillion is more money than the entire nation has. I’m all for reparations btw. But I can’t see how that much is realistic?
I thought 500 quid seemed a bit light to be mending generational wealth accumulation.
This seems much more in line with what I would expect.
Note, I’m a statistician, but don’t do maths outside of 9-5 /s
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Correct. I put too few 0’s in. I have no chance of paying anyone half a million. Those aren’t reparations, that’s a kind of reverse slavery. Also I divided by the number of taxpayers (31.6m), not the total population, because it’s going to be the taxpayer muggins who has to foot the bill.
I don’t think they are. Since the Late 1960’s the US has had a war on poverty. Almost trillion dollars has been poured into disadvantaged house holds. According to it’s standards, poverty has been reduced from 19.5% to 2.3%. The numbers via ethnicity are not giving with certainty, the fact is total poverty has been greatly reduced. I would argue that is significant reparations.
Isn’t most of this due to India and China?
China’s poverty rate fell from like 88% in 1981 to basically nothing today.
The poverty rate in the US fell because of China and India? Damn that was nice of them.
Some countries ended slavery by buying off the slave-owners — paying them for the property that they were being deprived of.
It’s kinda weird that they didn’t pay the enslaved people, who had been deprived of their own work and work-product and life and freedom.
As an American whose ancestors came from Europe around the same time that slavery was abolished here, I can be sure that none of my ancestors benefited directly from slavery; but also that they joined a society that had profited immensely from slavery. The whole reparations concept is complicated.
but also that they joined a society that had profited immensely from slavery.
The same is true for the descendants of slaves. They benefit from the same society that their enslaved ancestors participated in creating. They receive the same benefits of that society that you and your non-slave-owning ancestors receive, so for you, that issue is a wash.
Further, I would say that the descendants of Union soldiers who fought and died during the Civil War are owed at least similar reparations. When the deacendants of slavers get done paying the descendants of slaves, the descendants of slaves can turn around and pay the descendants of abolitionists for their sacrifices.
What of the descendants of the daughter of a former slaver and the son of a freed slave? Wouldn’t they, as descendants of slavers, owe as much in reparations as they are owed as descendants of slaves?
I mean if they didn’t buy the slaves to set them free, there’d have been a massive war, killing a bunch of the slaves and others, and likely costing more money. Imagine the American civil war but worldwide.
It was a necessary evil.
Slavery ended a while ago, but in the US there is still people alive today who suffered through the Jim Crow laws, and there is still a lot of systematic racism. So, racism didnt end with slavery.
For what I understand about reparations, it is for compensating the black communities, because rich white people has many generations of wealth, meanwhile black people only until a few decades ago were legality unable to make it bigger, being confined to poor communities, and being discriminated agaisnt in every aspect of a white dominated society.
Basically black people had so many obstacules for progress until kinda recently, and reparation are a way to level the ground. Reparations would allow more black people to go to college, feed their families, and get out of extreme poverty.
But a windfall would also help poor Native, White, Latino, Asian, immigrant, felons, or anyone else at a disadvantage.
Yeah. Thats a good thing.
Then why not just put more money towards poor communities regardless of race?
So, can the Slavic countries claim payments of reparations from the formerly known ottoman empire? Perhaps Jewish people from Asia? Surely the Christians from the Arabs, and the Arabs from the Christians? Not to mention Vietnam from China, or entire Europe from the decendants of the Roman empire.
Or are all of those instances somehow different?
History is full of misery and trying to pay to make amends for somebody else’s actions, today, feels ridiculous. Just as OP, I don’t get it.
I can’t wait for my cheques from Scandinavian countries for the Viking invasions, Italy for the Roman occupation, France for the Normandy conquerers, etc!
Also your caveman ancestor punched my caveman ancestor so I’m expecting a payment from you too
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You’re in a community called ‘no stupid questions’ and your response to a question is ‘what a stupid question’? Good work
I genuinely don’t know why this is something I should have to pay.
Weird way to view the situation. Then again, I bet a lot of slaves genuinely thought they shouldn’t have to be slaves.
As far as I know, lot of these aids are wired through NGOs and many of them are more related to the Church who often end up using the money for its Crusade (Conversion & stuff).
They’re not.
Ending slavery doesn’t reset everything back to zero. Imagine if you’re running a race against someone else. The person officiating the race (no clue what this kind of person is called 😅) lets your opponent start running the race and keeps you back at the start line. Then, they have a moment of clarity and say to themselves, “Wait a second… This isn’t fair!” So, they stop that person where they are, apologize to you, say they promise never to do it again, and blow the whistle so that you can both start the race.
But wait! That person still ended up starting way ahead! But we already ended head starts before the race started so it’s OK, right? Well, no, because the person who got the head start still got to start from their advantaged position.
But this isn’t quite the same because your issue crosses generations. So, a better analogy might be a relay race. Maybe the head start is stopped just as the second person on the opposing team receives the… thing you pass in a relay race. (Why am I making an analogy to a thing I know nothing about? 😅) They didn’t personally get the head start. So, it’s OK to go ahead and start the race now with one relay team already on their second runner while the other is on their first, right? It wouldn’t be fair to punish that person who didn’t directly gain the advantage of the head start.
Well, no, because that team still got an advantage and the other team still started at a disadvantage. Reparations are less about punishing an individual and more about leveling a playing field.
I like to think of online gaming. 2 teams against each other. One side uses cheats for part of the match and runs the score way up. Midway through, they turn the cheats off and apologize, but the score is still lopsided.
Old players might drop out and new players might join in, perhaps to the point where most players in the match were never around when the cheating occurred. You might even argue that some of the score gap might be attributable to differences in skill between the two teams. But it’s undeniable that one team is benefiting from an unfair advantage, and doing nothing to adjust for that perpetuates the unfairness.
Now, imagine that the game also has a mechanism that makes it easier to stay in the lead once you get there.
For my taste your analogy is faulty.
You put it like it was a game of Civ.
The history and development of nations and cultures on Earth was/is much more complex.
Poor white people whose peasant ancestors were left jobless and homeless due to being unable to compete with free slave labor should pay reparations to the descendants of the people who were forced to work for free, while the rich descendants of the slave owners who dislodged one group while exploiting the other put their blood money in offshore accounts and laugh as the poor people squabble over crumbs.
