Hello. So last week I went to a school reunion for the 20th anniversary of my hometown school. I’m not the kind of person who enjoy this kind of social events, but for this time I made an exception. My old friend from that time asked me to go and I thought I would be funny (spoiler alert: it wasn’t funny). After the event and speeches, all my classmates and I went to a restaurant. I sat in front of a girl that I had a bit of a crush on when I was a kid. During the dinner I was mostly in silence, they were talking about gossips, old memories, relationships, comparisons… At some point she talked about a boyfriend she had. She said that she cheated on him like 10 or 20 times, she didn’t know the exact number. The thing is… She was laughing about it, and so the others. “I told him I cheated on him, I don’t know how many times…” She said, like nothing happened. My ex girlfriend told me that she also cheated on his fiancée some time before the wedding. She always said that infidelities are always there, like it is normal… But is it? I’ve been thinking about it for some time now, because I know some other cases. But I don’t understand… There is no sense of morality ot loyalty or empathy?
If you are really interested in learning more about infidelity I would suggest you read / listen to Dan Savages’s columns / podcast. Unsurprisingly there are a lot of different calls and discussions about fidelity and monogamy. I would also suggest you read Ester Perel groundbreaking novel The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity
To answer your question directly infidelities are fairly common because monogamy is difficult and society typically puts a lot of stress and pressure on monogamy that makes it even more difficult. The foremost is the idea that monogamy as a default setting and that one person can be everything for one person sexually, emotionally etc… So we have a situation where two people are assuming that their partner will be the only person they can be attracted to, the one person that can fulfill all their emotional needs and will have to be a perfect roommate / life mate. This coupled with the idea that you have to be perfect at monogamy or you are a complete failure at it. So you have a hard situation and hard expectations so people slip and some people who slip on something small (a micro-cheating which is a ridiculous concept) they go all the way. All these expectations are common in “Straight-land” while those in “queer-land” have a different set of expectation that work better for everyone.
We should all make monogamy an regular opt-in conversation for relationships (I would suggest ~6 months in when you go exclusive and then at most every 5 years). Moreover, we should understand our monogamist partner finds other people attractive and chooses to not pursue anything not that they don’t find anyone else attractive. Finally, we should understand a our partner needs friends, hobbies and confidant who are not us to rely on. Until that happens “cheating” will likely remain something that happens fairly regularity
That’s interesting. I wonder how much religion plays into it. My marriage is monogamous but we are both open to each other about attractions outside the marriage. It is OK to be turned on by someone else or some other situation, and we can use that together. It also helps that we both don’t generally like other people; we have a close knit group of friends but most folks we meet outside that are obnoxious and gross.
Like everything there’s some puritan morals involved. Most of which are around how sex and sexual desire are gross and not important. Couple that with the idea that suffering makes you a good person they all connect.
Also I think media plays a big role as well. Some toxic relationships are glorified in rom-coms and other media. Add in the normalization of weaponized jealousy in reality TV. Throw in the new micro cheating that the Internet and relationships experts who make mountains out of molehills. It’s a complex mix
Cheating is definitely in the minority of my social circle. I know of 2 amongst 100. At least people who were shameless enough to be admitting it.
That said, I do have maybe 5 open relationships in my friend group? I don’t usually ask, so maybe 10 total. My wife and I are monogamous. If you’re not, whatever, you do you. It isn’t a religious thing, it’s just how we roll.
But good lord at least talk about it, agree on it and stick with it. If you don’t then you’re a dick.
I’ve seen a lot of cheating. So I suppose it’s common. Not the norm, but common.
In the end it all just boils down to people not being really good on general.
The “infidelities are always there” part sounds like a cope. I’m not a great authority on relationships or marriage as I’ve mostly opted for single life but I have spent a lot of time around the various aspects of substance abuse and the way you describe this discussion sounds eerily similar to people with substance-use issues saying “everybody drinks” or “everybody uses drug x.” It might be true of the people they surround themselves with but it’s not representative of the broader population as a whole…
-On a seperate note you’re really making me want to attend my 20th reunion next year. /s
-Lastly I just want to clarify that i’m interpreting the term “cheating” to being different than a poly/open-relationship. As I understand there’s an element of deception or lack of communication when it comes to “cheating.”
I guess this means that cheaters are more inclined to go to school reunions.
Seriously, I think that fits. Many people (not all) cheat because they are unfulfilled in life. And the same cohort also might go to class reunions for the same reason… to try to find fulfillment.
Welcome to The Against Matrimony Club, we have mimosas.
The against monogamy club has coke and group sex
I can’t answer as to frequency, but I can say that recently a woman I know slightly cheated on her husband of 20 plus years, and the reason I know this is because he hired a private investigator and put the video of her kissing the other dude on Facebook. Apparently he did not include the video of them having sex but it exists. That seems like a really heinous thing for him to do, but if you know this family they’re actually really well raised good members of the community, and he’s clearly extremely hurt, stating that the depth of her lies to him was unreal. This woman’s mother is a saint walking upon the earth, without a shadow of a doubt, and her daughter was what seemed to be a very ethical well brought up mother herself raised in the Christian faith (not the conservative kind but the really decent person kind), so this was all a big shock. Apparently she was just lying to everyone, including her saint of a mother, all along. Her husband asked her to stop the affair (which was with some guy she had known for years) until they separated houses, but she kept on and kept on lying about it until she was caught on tape.
So until someone’s mask slips, you just really never know what someone will do.
Cheating is complicated. Yeah some people just will, they are fooling themselves when they say they won’t. Some people find it sexy, they literally want to cheat, they think it’s hot. Others will if the situation gets extreme, people in dead bedroom situations who want to keep their family together and make the calculation (or miscalculation) that cheating is less damaging than divorcing. I worked with old people when I was younger, my bosses were old Spanish people who married for business reasons but had lovers, they did not love each other in a romantic way.
I’d say that as divorce becomes easier to get, marriage more based on love rather than alliance and monogamy less required, there is probably less cheating. But it won’t ever be zero.
If you are asking is cheating universal? No. It’s not.
It seems fairly common. What seems to happen a lot is people get dissatisfied in their current relationship but don’t want the drama or risk of breaking up.
For some odd reason it seems easier to meet people when you are already in a relationship so they take the opportunity to cheat while still staying with their stable partner.
There’s been a decent amount of discussion online that when you are already in a relationship, you’ve been “vetted” so to speak. Obviously bullshit, as what your current partner may find acceptable can have jack to do with what anyone else finds acceptable. Also, if you have a break up, somehow you’re no longer vetted because clearly you have some problems if you had a break up.
It’s all pretty/petty bullshit but it’s definitely a thing. Even my clueless ass has noticed it. Women are more comfortable around me now that I’m obviously taken (wedding ring). Not that they weren’t before, but diving into deep/private conversation stuff at a far faster rate. Like I pride myself on being trustworthy and a good listener, but you gotta chill.
That increased comfort also includes more comfortable to make passes at me. No thanks, wife and I aren’t looking for a third.
People are ridiculous. We truly are just psychotic hairless apes.
Incredibly common. I haven’t seen any recent estimates but I recall at one time that ~15% of children did not have the biological fathers than they thought they did. It’s not to point the finger at women - rates of infidelity may be even higher among men, it’s just harder to track independently.
I believed it was ~15% of fathers who tested, thus suspecting infidelity, not overall numbers?
This wasn’t a published study. This was beers with the folks in the genetics lab at the hospital I worked at. No patient names or other identifying information was involved. They did tissue matching etc. and ran into the issue all the time. On a personal note two close friends have found out they had different biological dads than they thought they did. So maybe my perspective is skewed somewhat.
It’s not to point the finger at women
Just point it at humans unless you’re talking about cheaters who step out to swing for the other team.
I’m not sure what kind of infidelity happens in high school, but I suspect if someone cheated on me by kissing someone else while we were in high school, I wouldn’t be upset, mostly because the nature of relationships in high school I don’t think of as long lasting. I’ve never cheated nor been cheated on though.
I agree. In high school is different. We all fall in love with a different person every day. But I think she was talking about her mid twenties.
I’ve been on both sides of it. While not super regular, I’d say it’s not uncommon. Discussing it openly isn’t.
My buddy went to Amsterdam and had the restraint to only get handjobs and has never otherwise gone behind his wife’s back. I’d be surprised if any of my other friends did anything. One couple has guests over for mutual threesomes, so no need for infidelity for them. I know my ex hooked up with another female despite knowing she had a bf. People are ok with lowering their standards when an opportunity presents itself.
IIRC it’s like a half or a third of the population that cheats, when research has been conducted. So, it’s normal in the sense of common. But, like others have said, your reunion people sound like were trying to convince themselves it’s normal in the sense of acceptable. And anecdotally it does tend to be the same people over and over again.
Polyamory is also getting mentioned, but that’s a different thing, and poly people are a couple percent of the population at most with far fewer actually living the lifestyle.
IIRC it’s like a half or a third of the population that cheats,
That’s always what I have estimated the percentage of assholes or bad people from personal sampling throughout my life.
I’d actually go way higher. The ones that seem nice are the easiest to externally pressure into doing bad things, which counts as being a bad person.
What does it mean to do a bad thing? (I don’t belive in good/bad people, so I’m curious on how you construct that worldview)
I mean, there’s all kinds of ethical philosophy out there. I don’t really deviate too far from it.
In practice, there’s a lot that most people can agree on without too much thought, too. For example, the classical case study for how being agreeable can work against doing the right thing is how ordinary and nice a lot of Nazis were, when not being ordered into atrocities.
First off, thanks for answering. I’m a bit obsessed with this kinda stuff.
I mean, there’s all kinds of ethical philosophy out there. I don’t really deviate too far from it.
So vaguely western ethics? I mean some ethics frameworks are quite incompatible.
In practice, there’s a lot that most people can agree on without too much thought, too.
This is a theme I see. It’s fair to not think through it, especially when it feels obvious.
For example, the classical case study for how being agreeable can work against doing the right thing is how ordinary and nice a lot of Nazis were, when not being ordered into atrocities.
This is consistent with the above statements. I sorta agree, but obviously I have a different worldview.
So my best guess given all that is that doing a bad thing from your perspective is: Doing something you consciously know will bring harm to others.
Which I think requires:
- Free will / Independence / a distinction between internal and external.
Does that sound right?
I mean some ethics frameworks are quite incompatible.
Yes, I just meant I don’t have much to add that hasn’t been said already. I lean pretty consequentialist, if that’s relevant.
I guess I should say I don’t really believe in judging people either, per se. OP said the world is 1/3 assholes, which implies 2/3 are off the hook. 2/3 are not off the hook, pretty much everyone is part of one problem or another, and should do better (but won’t).
Doing something you consciously know will bring harm to others.
Drop “consciously know”. People who can rationalise things really well are common, and I wouldn’t distinguish in any sense between a bad pair of shoes and a bad person. Both are obstacles to the world being how I (and most people) think the world should be.
I guess I will include local causality, as a sort of distinction between internal and external. A human being as a subsystem can’t respond to information it doesn’t have as input. That goes for a computer or ordinary rock too.
(I get this has gone on a while, of ya wanna stop just tell me. That way I’m not waiting on your reply.)
I lean pretty consequentialist, if that’s relevant.
Yeah that’s pretty helpful. It’s nice to be able to look into that without taking up too much of your time.
I guess I should say I don’t really believe in judging people either, per se.
Noted! This lines up with your last paragraph on not being able to use info you don’t have. That sort of reasoning drives a lot of my non-judgement as well.
I wouldn’t distinguish in any sense between a bad pair of shoes and a bad person.
This sort of dryness speaks to me. I disagree, but I like the energy it’s putting out there. I don’t put extra moral weight into humans. I’m no human exceptionalist.
So this all leads me to two questions that have a lot to do with practical application:
- You said
Both are obstacles to the world being how I (and most people) think the world should be.
Does this imply that human consensus drives the goodness / badness of an action and therefore the goodness / badness of the actor that brought about that action?
If so, what happens when there isn’t consensus? Sometimes a non-consesus still has intense emotions behind it (abortion for example). Also does that mean minority opinions are morally less good?
If not, what defines an action’s good/badness?
- What are the implications of an actor being bad? There’s a reason we designated them. What for?
2/3 are not off the hook,
Off what hook? What would being on the hook be for someone?
I would toss bad shoes. But also I know shoes don’t think about being tossed. I guess I could extend an earlier thought and say we do whatever the consensus is to that actor. That way we maximize goodness. Though I think leaving it at that would allow us to justify some radical things.
Infidelity is somewhat common but I would say it’s not “normal” at all to openly discuss and laugh about it at dinner with a bunch of people that you haven’t seen for years.
Seriously- wtf is wrong with these people? That one person sounds especially horrible.
Also - don’t go to any more reunions. I’ve managed to avoid 40 years of that shit and I like to believe that I’m happier for it!
I went to my 10 year to make sure I was right. I was. I haven’t gone to any others and don’t even get asked.
Yes, Right? It was too much to talk about it. Definitely that was my first and last reunion
The only thing I get from meeting again people I haven’t seen for decades is to, using the abilities I’ve been acquiring with time and life experience to read other people beyond the superficial, find out that
mostmany haven’t really mature much from the people I knew and at times how much I misjudged them back in the old days when I was very naive and ran around pretty lost.The “I’m better than that” feeling would be highly satisfying if I was a different kind of person, but it’s actually just sad that some people turn out to either having always been less than I made them up to be in my mind or failed to actually turn into well balanced mature adults.
The other possibility is that it’s all in my mind and I’m just deceiving myself, as having become more more self-deluded when it comes to others with time looks exactly the same from the inside as having become a little wiser in interpreting others.
You have to consider a few things here. You’re not the only one with social anxiety at that event. Your reaction is not to go in the first place (my MO as well) or to sit quietly hoping it shall pass with haste. Others talk too much. School reunions are such a rich vein for neurosis because you’re guaranteed to be judged by your peers. Peers who knew you very well when you weren’t a more well put together person yet. Few people behave like themselves there. So if the woman says she cheated a million times lol, her neurons may be on the fritz as well because she’s more thinking about how she dunked Sharon’s head in the toilet in freshman year or whatever. And that memory is haunting. And she’s sitting just over there! WHY HASN’T SHE SAID ANYTHING? … So you need to have a salt shaker handy for anything you hear.
Also, some people like attention and will say anything to get it. People like to construct a public persona around their worst character traits, the ones they’re unable to change. It’s like they’re putting a cool leather jacket on, aviator shades too. To distract themselves from their inner monolog, which very well might be telling them what a piece of shit they are.
And cheating is common. In my social group I know of a handful of cases. Drunk and horny, sober and crushing - the motivations are on a scale. In some relationships these secrets never get revealed, in others they’ve made the bond stronger, others have broken up. I would say very few people brag about it but hey, we contain multitudes. Some people end up in an unhealthy game of hurt oneup(wo)manship. Relationships are hard fucking work.
It is also a different picture when you have children with your partner. The willingness to forgive infractions increases for the good of the children.
And while centuries of indoctrination of monogamy and loyalty to your spouse can make this hard to accept: some people make open relationships work. I think it’s more often than not the last stepping stone to disaster but if you can make it work, vaya con dios. I have a hard time with it but I’m trying not to judge.
None of this needs to change how you feel about cheating though.
