cross-posted from: https://lemmy.crimedad.work/post/12162
Why? Because apparently they need some more incentive to keep units occupied. Also, even though a property might be vacant, there’s still imputed rental income there. Its owner is just receiving it in the form of enjoying the unit for himself instead of receiving an actual rent check from a tenant. That imputed rent ought to be taxed like any other income.
A penalty for units that have been vacant longer than 6 months makes sense.
Units need to be rehabbed, but keeping a property uninhabited for long periods of time should have a disincentive tax applied to them.
This article title makes ZERO sense. Empty house tax, sure.
But an “income” tax on no rent being paid?
Why would that EVER be passed by the people who own all of the houses? Don’t waste the poors’ time lol
They can extrapolate the supposed income by looking at how much they asked previous renters.
How is that an “income” tax? Make it make sense.
Yep, a 100% income tax rate on zero income is zero. It seems a lot of reddit’s financial incompetence is spilling over to lemmy. Also, property taxes exist and are being paid already…
“Income tax on no income” is exactly what imputed income is, as mentioned by OP. Free perks from an employer are, for example, (in the US), taxed as income.
https://www.hrblock.com/tax-center/income/what-is-imputed-income/
That’s just not solid logic
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Wow they don’t??? Cool!!! i love incentivizing the use of housing as an asset to store money!!! Fuck!!!
Just add land value tax
Georgism is the way
My main concern is Friedrich Hayek’s concern that valuations wouldn’t be fair. Where there’s an opportunity to game the system, those with means will. But maybe it’s better than our current system.
I would like to see working examples first, if possible.
Where there’s an opportunity to game the system, those with means will.
Absolutely. It’s one of my few gripes with georgism. And at the end of the day a shitty implementation of georgism is better than our current shit show of billionaires and mega corps paying $0 or next to $0 in taxes. Sometimes they even get paid instead.
But anyways, I haven’t seen much detail about how to fairly valuate land, but I’ve had some thoughts on it. The number one thing should be that all land is taxed at the same percentage, but each plot is valued differently. I think one of the ways to do this would be to simply calculate how far a given plot is from the nearest city center, and factor in how big the population of that city is.
It’s something that can be objectively measured, should be roughly correlated with what we could subjectively agree on is valuable, and isn’t something that could be gamed easily.
I would like to see working examples first, if possible.
The Netherlands has a land value tax, though it is not the sole income source for their government.
https://www.iamexpat.nl/housing/real-estate-news/how-does-it-work-taxation-real-estate-netherlands
My understanding is that the government employs people to assign a value to each plot, and from there the use case of the land is considered. Land owners can then appeal the judgement if they like. I know there are some other countries besides the Netherlands that have a LVT system, but the Netherlands is the first that comes to mind. I’d honestly be ok with either of these systems of determining land value, either the one I made up or the Netherland’s. At the end of the day it’s pretty much the only way to tax the rich without them just moving their money elsewhere. You can’t move land after all, and much of their wealth is tied up in land.
Here is a research paper into the effects that might interest you.
https://www.elibrary.imf.org/view/journals/001/2022/263/article-A001-en.xml
Thanks, I’ll check it out.
I generally think the Netherlands makes sensible decisions (e.g. routing traffic around Amsterdam instead of through it, investing in rail and cycling infrastructure, not having a tipping culture for restaurants, etc), so it’s expected that they would have a decent solution here too.
I wish the US would take a page from their book and focus on moving people instead of cars, because pretty much everything else follows from that.
I’m right there with you. I feel like I’m talking with aliens when I say stuff like this to other americans.
Yeah, it just makes perfect sense in an urban environment. If they want the “traditional” American car-centric lifestyle, then they can live further from city centers and commute in.
I’m lucky enough to live in a place that is a little bit walkable (7 eleven, pizza shop, beer store 2 min walking with a grocer 15 walk), there is so much more that could be done. I wish I didn’t have to get a car, and I am so close to basically ditching mine for an e-bike. The only thing stopping me is that my city’s bike safety is not the best.
So close, and yet so far, why so desperate to cling on to capitalism??
Georgism is not a form of capitalism. Georgism is a strategy for government revenue. Regardless of what type of economy you have, unless you have pure anarchy there needs to be a source of income for the government. Georgism is the least bad option, they’re all bad.
I usually fall somewhere in the range of what people call socialism. I’m certainly not a capitalist.
Ahem.
Landlords should have their rental properties seized and placed under the ownership of the local government. Berlin did it. You want to bring housing prices back into reach of the middle class? Stop letting people hoard houses.
In Denmark most apartments have “residence requirement” - if you own a unit and keep it empty the city will fill it with someone waiting for public housing.
landlords should be forced to pay a house tax on every house they don’t live in to the value of one house
Property taxes do generally work this way. Maybe they should increase property taxes 2-3x, but also raise the homestead exemption so that owning and living in the home is no more expensive.
yeah I wasn’t being serious any actual solution is going to need to be more nuanced than that. Probably involving state provided housing and likely involving high density accomodation. Although it’s a real shame that high density accomodation is archtecturally associated with shoddily built housing intended for people the government doesn’t give a fuck about because palaces and castles are also examples of high density accomodation.
I think the ideal solution would look like high density state provided housing that is designed to be beautiful and pleasant to live in.
Whoa now, let’s not be unreasonable. They can be taxed at a geometric rate, starting at 100% the value of the house and doubling for every one thereafter.
Although I love the gothamiat. I think they should pay taxes. But what does this have to do with personal finance?
The unemployed should have to pay income tax on the income they would earn if they were employed
Landlords should pay 100% tax on their empty rentals.
You’ll see how fast they will accept any and all new tenants, at a much lower price.
Which would also flood the market with housing, lowering the prices even more until renting becomes an actual beneficial option compared to buying and paying off a loan.
Real estate would also not be seen as an investment anymore.
100% on $0
Genius
100% on their rental value, which for many landlords is directly tied to massive loans they’re underwater on. That’s why they’d rather have unoccupied rentals with nominally high values than reduce the rental price to match the market and have their loans called in.
Real estate should be considered an investment. It’s one of the few things people invest in that is actually valuable. It’s the speculative and labrynthine financial markets that are the problem in that regard.
The only reason mega-renters like Blackrock and Vanguard are able to monolithically buy property in the first place is because of dubious speculative earnings and government bailouts.
It’s not surprising that home ownership was actually a lot higher 60 years ago.
Why should it be an investment at all?
So that people can decouple their time from their earning power.
Really butchering the language here to not say “passive income” or “making other people work for me”
I don’t have a problem with either one of those things so pick your favorite.
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You forget that for one to acquire said property one must first “exploit” one’s self. What I do with the earnings from my exploitation is my business.
Why should a human necesssity be an investment?
Because there is more than enough for everyone.
There’s more than enough housing that everyone can afford to own? Why are there homeless people then?
So, so many reasons…
At the individual level drugs are a HUGE reaaon, mental illness, poor care for veterans etc Although there is SOME government housing and charitable housing for people that need it.
At a macro level there is money printing, endless war, corporate welfare, cronyism etc
Let’s face it though we could probably house everyone in Europe within South Dakota alone. Not to mention most homeless people are in extremely expensive areas like LA, Austin, Seattle and New York.
Passing an ill-conceived law that will have unintended consequences should be way, way low on the list of ways to lower housing prices. Especially since it’s highly likely it won’t be enforced properly.
But why should it be anything but a personal investment? I’m not seeing your point there. Isn’t it better for everyone to decommodify housing?
Why should it be anything but a personal investment?
What do mean? I don’t see how what I said negates that.
Isn’t it better for everyone to decommodify housing?
Not really no. Commodfication is why things used to be cheap. High [insert item here] prices are directly related to money printing, corporate welfare and regulations that are designed to raise the barrier of entry for normal people.
Commodifying things makes them cheap? As opposed to decommodifying? That makes no sense
What is an example of decommodifying?
Nationalized healthcare
Making something unsuitable for investment so we preserve its primary function (houses being a home to a family and not an airbnb or an empty rental).
People require to land to live on, it is a basic necessity, and basic necessities absolutely should not be considered an investment.
What should people invest in then? How is land ownership handled? Etc etc etc
What should people invest in then?
Literally any other type of business.
How is land ownership handled?
People should still be able to own land for their own personal use. Land used to extract wealth on the other hand should be more tightly controlled. We should ideally implement georgism to free up the land that the rich own and to increase land use efficiency. After that ownership should look pretty much identical.
Literally any other type of business
You’ve just eliminated perhaps the safest, most attainable method for the average person to achieve passive income.
Owning land for personal use
Other than living on it, why would someone want to own land?
You’ve just eliminated perhaps the safest, most attainable method for the average person to achieve passive income.
And? Should we be trying to help people earn income for doing dick all?
For doing dick all
Yeah because they just plucked the property off of a tree… people often work years and years to get enough for a property investment and it can take 30 years to pay it off. Throughout all that time they are responsible for maintenance, insurance and a litany of other things to keep it from falling into disrepair.
You’ve just eliminated perhaps the safest, most attainable method for the average person to achieve passive income.
If the “safest most attainable way” to get wealth requires others to be homeless or unable to afford a basic necessity then it isn’t not worth it.
And it arguably isn’t the most attainable way, because so many people are being priced out of owning a home because of the current system’s failures.
Other than living on it, why would someone want to own land?
To use it for a business or enjoyment. I’m not sure where you are going with this.
To use it for a business
This is wealth extraction
Or enjoyment
So you’re okay with some rich person owning acreage as long as it’s for their own enjoyment but not for a normal dude who has an investment property and is holding out for a renter that will adequately cover his costs and generate some profit?
Real estate should be considered an investment.
Housing can be affordable, or it can be an investment. Not both.
Why would I build a house if I can’t make money on it?
Building is separate from owning.
…to live in…
Obviously not talking about a property I intend to live in and not sell…
Because you want a nice house to live in?
Building should be profitable, owning should be of limited profitability.
All you’ve done is move the point I’m arguing to the building process instead of renting.
It didn’t work this way in the real world.
I’d be so angry if I found out a nusince neighbor was paying less rent than I was.
In this case landlords could just pay some money to fake tenants to make their rentals appear occupied (at a ridiculously low price). Rental prices could even rise because of free rentals number reduction and necessity to cover additional expenses.
They should pay 100% tax on all rentals.
So a less efficient and more complicated land tax? Is there any benefit to this compared to just taxing based on the value?
The idea is to make it financially uncomfortable to retain real estate in a manner that harms society.
That’s literally what a land value tax does.
For as long as I’ve been alive, one of the lines I’ve heard is that real estate is always a sound investment. There have also been land taxes for that entire time, most of them being land value taxes. The evidence suggests that the most common form of land value tax, which does not consider how many residential properties an entity owns, is not doing much, if anything, to disincentivize purchasing residential properties as an investment.
Land value taxes are quite rare in the US.
A property tax and a land value tax are a bit different: a land value tax taxes the unimproved value of a plot, while a property tax taxes the total value, including the assessed value of the buildings on the land.
One effect of property taxes is that a parking lot downtown pays a fraction of what an apartment building next door pays. With a land value tax, they pay the same, which discourages land speculation by encouraging efficient uses of land.
And we’ve certainly never gone as far as Georgism, which suggests a land value tax as the main or only source of government funding, set to be around what an unimproved lot on the same location would lease for.
They don’t? They do where I live. Property tax is real in Michigan.
landlords ought not exist
