Do the army support the president even if his orders are against your constitution? How is the overll clima and feeling today?
Just asking because I’m curious, I have no horse in this race :)
Edited to Armed forces since thats exactly what I ment
You might want to edit your post to read “armed forces” rather than army. The United States armed forces include Army, Navy, Coast Guard, Marines, Air Force, Space Force (LOL), and the National Guard. I apologize if I left anyone out.
I’d like to know if there is are general differences between the branches. Like, is the Air Force more liberal?
There are differences but I wouldn’t use terms like “liberal” although those who chose to join the Marines due tend to have a particular stereotype.
Something something crayons right?
That’s a special dietary need.
There are differences, but it’s quite difficult to define. There’s not a huge political difference except maybe the Marines are stereotypically known to be more right-leaning.
The National Guard is not monolithic either, as it is per service and per state. I.e. Minnesota Air National Guard, Minnesota Army National Guard, Iowa Air… you get it
To clarify the army has 3 types active, national guard and reserve
The reserve doesn’t have combat mos and are primarily support. Active duty soldiers live on bases when not deployed, and train throughout the week like a regular job. The national guard is still part of the army, they train for the same jobs at the same place and wear the exact same uniform. All three departments wear a name tape that says U.S. army.
They just so happen to be in their respective states service, and can be acted on by the governor as well. National guard also does disaster relief when state side. All three departments can be deployed to a conflict internationally.
You are right that is what I ment! Just edited
Most of the US military have zero qualms about obeying illegal orders.
Reference: Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and most other U.S. instigated wars for their entire history.
Of course they do, they also want to keep some sanity or, you know, keep breathing.
This is what has been most depressing/distressing about watching all of this unfold. People online (and I’m not immune to this either) have this impulse to think “Surely not right? Surely these people will come to their senses and not just blindly follow transparently evil orders right? We’ve been told these people are heroes who stand up for freedom and democracy and our safety right? Surely at least some of them will do the right thing right?” It’s so ingrained into us through support our troops propaganda and various TV/Movies showing them and cops as principled heroes saving the day. We’ve also seen this with corporations. “Wow I can’t believe this company turned away from DEI so quickly. I can’t believe this company is going to keep selling surveillance tech to the government. Surely someone will see how wrong that is.”
And then I snap back to my senses and remember history. We’ve seen what horrors these people are willing to commit, whether they want to or are “just following orders.” Maybe you at least believe that they won’t do it to US, as cynical as that is… and then you remember Kent State, segregation, the violent crackdown on unions, the police rallying around protecting cops who execute people in the streets, etc.
Nobody is going to come to their senses. None of them are coming to save us from themselves. If we don’t stand up for ourselves this is just going to happen and be another chapter in a long history of cruelty.
The Milgram experiment. The Zimbardo prison experiment. The bystander effect. At the end of the day, humans are just monkeys with smart watches. As social primates, it’s really hard to be the one to stand up against the crowd. Our brains decide how to act based largely on the reactions of other humans around us.
It’s disheartening.
Don’t use the Zimbardo prison experiment. From your link:
Certain critics have described the study as unscientific and fraudulent.[6][7] In particular, Thibault Le Texier has established that the guards were asked directly to behave in certain ways in order to confirm Zimbardo’s conclusions, which were largely written in advance of the experiment.
I’m going to repeat what @plyth said. “Don’t use the Zimbardo prison experiment”.
Zimbardo was as manipulative as the psychologists from the Robbers Cave experiment,
with the only difference being that the former was only done once, while in the latter,
the subjects figured out that they were being manipulated and turned against the psychologists.Because of this, the conclusions Zimbardo drew himself are very different from when you conclude that
Zimbardo was behind the whole ordeal pulling the strings.
One only needed to stand up against one person, not a crowd.That just makes it worse! (From my point of view here.) People behaving reprehensibly because an authority figure asked them to do it? That’s just the Milgram experiment, but without any apparent hesitation!
Military operative have been trained to obey like dogs, their sentience has been mercilessly beaten out if them. Just look at the mindless obedience of your coworkers, sheeps to the slaughter the lot of them. The few that awaken gets co-opted by the system as sheep dogs of the system are rewarded with meaty, juicy bones. Questionning authority is not an option, it’s a sin. They know their masters would never punish their obedience, it would never happen, it NEVER happens.
The military is a corrupt and vile institution, it is irrelevant who they are killing for, they are not on “your” side, they are trying to survive and will kill what they are told. All who participate in organized premeditated militarism as a job, while not under immediate attack of another organized and premeditated military, are simply lost to humanity, they have become the enemy, tools, no matter what flag they jack into at night. In hyperwar militaries are obsolete because they become incoherent, there is no enemy if cannot point to it. The enemy is you.
The thing is that it becomes different when the order becomes “go to your home town, shoot anyone who disobeys, including your friends and family.”
It might take a decade of brutal civil war, but look what happened in Syria. In the end the people in the army were also tired of murdering their own people.
The solution here is even easier than the division they’ve already been sowing upon the American people.
You don’t send them home. You send them to the place that is the most culturally disparate from the way they grew up possible. You’re a New England liberal? Great. We’ll post you in the center of conservative Texas. Red Cap from a family of Diehard conservatives? You go to Oregon. New York inner city youth? You get special duty, guarding critical corporate infrastructure.
Keep them divided, keep them guessing. All it takes for control of a human being.
If that’s the case, then we should shun these traitors.
Let’s face it, who do you think elected the Mr. President?
white boomers, incels, religious fundamentalists and petty tyrants?
As a leftwing incel I find that offensive, the right wing incels give us a bad name
I’ll bite, in what way are left wing incels different? Genuinely curious because I’ve never heard incels split into right vs left before.
I mean an incel is just some one who’s involuntarily celibate, it wasn’t a political thing it used to just be a bunch of awkward guys on the net the BS politics and the insane misogyny all came later.
Right wing incel is playing video games and acting shitty to women gamers
What’s even funnier is that often being a „good feminist“ can literally lead you to getting no pussy which often drives these people into even more misogyny. I have extreme anxiety talking to people I find attractive and have a very hard time reading people’s body language as to when they’re sexually interested, the only time I’ve ever managed to pick up a random person has been basically when I acted like a pick up artist. It sucks and I hate it but in cis dating (at least where i live) basically all the responsibility is put on the man and it fucking sucks.
The right wing incels don’t get a pass for their shitty politics but being starved of intimacy as an adult human is a form of torture imo and it fucking sucks. Not that men or any person has a right to other people’s bodies but I’m pretty sure if you deprived a bunch of men of any form of sexual intimacy 99% of them would go fucking insane. There is a reason why celibacy was considered a spiritual practice or sacrifice for humans it’s not an easy thing to do or be.
Edit: I mean I’m fine with downvotes but it’s telling that people just click the button instead of actually trying to positively contribute in some way. Cis dating sucks, and dating as a heterosexual man is miserable if you don’t fit into society’s expectations of what a „man“ is. I find it hilarious how leftists will literally have a systematic critique for everything, but when confronted with this issue they’ll just point and laugh at the loser incel men because they deserve what’s happening to them. I’ve met a couple of really nice incels who aren’t reactionary they just find it really difficult to date. Whatever some feminist completely agree with me on this point so I don’t really mind what random internet people say.
Don’t forget the overwhelming general apathy towards, and lack of participation in, politics the majority has.
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The 9-10 million people who voted for Biden in 2020 and didn’t bother voting in 2024.
edit: fixed date typo
They should have voted for gore, could have swung the election
I think you got the wrong year there on the first one
oops thanks, fixed.
Musk’s voting machines?
Is he making military orders that are against the constitution? U mean the marines in LA thing?
I don’t know. That’s why I’m asking
none of my friends in the armed forces are smart or socially conscious people. they are not at all curious about any of life’s questions.
Yeah, the armed forces is overwhelmingly conservative. Even if you’re not conservative when you go in, being immersed in it for so long means you likely are when you get out. There are outliers, sure. But statistically, the people in the armed forces will only have the opinions that Fox News tells them to have.
A better question is if anybody in the military is on Lemmy
I’m a veteran, no combat service. I was in during President Obama so somewhat recent. I’m past any contract so I can’t get called up. Speaking from some experience though your average enlisted person most likely does not want to deploy or help in LA. They are likely removed about how dumb it is. There might be some who won’t, but you won’t hear about it, they’ll just process them out under “other than honorable” conditions, which maybe is not the worst option given the current admin. To me its a scenario where you would not refuse orders, even though they are dumb and unconstitutional. It would have been hard for me to refuse the current order too, I would be removed the entire time, I know thats not taking a stand. I would do the bare minimum, which is kinda what I expect to happen, extreme low effort but we’ll see. Most comments on the post aren’t wrong, just wanted to point out a general reluctance I do not know what it would take to refuse an order.
The way you describe it I’m reminded of when the South Korean president tried to … I don’t even know what his goal was. Apparently the soldiers were confused, the pooiticians were confused, everyone was just too confused to get violent.
How about we ask ‘Americans that are in the National Guard’, too.
i didn’t know the difference since Im not american. Another nicer person let me know and I edited it
Since that’s organized under each state they probably feel good about their own states.
You’d be surprised, also regarding federalization for immigration enforcement and protest control. Who’s to say that the courts don’t weigh in on the side of CA and limit the use of CA-NG by the POTUS, and then he brings in a neighbor state’s NG instead? These are wild times, they even activated the Marines… on top of NG. This is crazy stuff.
Remember when the Chinese protests in Tianmen square happened the regime was afraid that sending in local troops to deal with the protestors would run the risk on them joining in or refusing to follow orders because they were familiar with people in the crowds. They instead sent troops from other regions that didn’t have the same issues and we all know how that ended.
If Trump ends up sending the NG from a red state where people think California is some dangerous “third world country” as some representative said not long ago there is a chance it would end up the same as Tianmen. I really hope that doesn’t come to pass, people don’t deserve to be massacred for speaking their minds.
China gave orders to massacre, so it’s no surprise they got a massacre.
The only source I would trust here that you linked is the famous 1998 CJR article. It just points out the misnomer caused by what we call the incident to point out that mass killings happened elsewhere while students were peacefully evacuated from the square itself. Of course I also trust the photos you linked are real. But just like the aforementioned myth (also explored by the CJR article), you perpetuate the myth of the crackdown being on primarily student protests when far far more of the dead were of the inspired workers’ protest, especially those killed as the army was heading into Tiananmen. Such violent crackdowns made it so Deng could not recover his influence until 1992.
Yes, students did stone and kill soldiers and Molotov APCs, including the lynching of (just) one soldier as depicted in the photos. But that does not justify the hundreds of protestors killed with live ammunition. Yes, there was no carnage in the square during the Tiananmen square massacres. Misnomers abound. But as a person I try to get others to understand me in communication. Yes, the “Tiananmen square” part is a misnomer. But who’s gonna understand me if I go about every day saying “June Fourth Incident”? Not to mention a lot of the killings were also committed around 11 PM the previous day.
I also did a bit of a misnomer: It’s dubious whether you could define the mass killings as massacres. My point was that China ordered the army to do what they did. It sounds to me like Kirp was characterizing the other regions’ hatred to blame for what happened around Tiananmen, which hopefully we can agree was not what happened.
this surprised me. from what I can tell from your sources and Wikipedia:
✅ the tanks were indeed leaving the square.
✅ Tank Man stopped them, climbed onto the top of a tank and talked briefly with the soldiers inside, then was quickly shepherded away by two people. it’s unclear whether the people were PLA or concerned bystanders. nothing is known of the man.
🤔 sources disagree on whether civilians were killed in the Square itself. some supposed witnesses were shown to have left or been elsewhere.
❌ at least 300 people, mostly civilians, were killed that night, according to the PRC itself. most of the casualties were likely students surrounding the square. from what I can tell it was likely a Kent State situation, where students were throwing rocks and setting fires, and the PLA overreacted with lethal force.
China’s suppression of the media didn’t do them any favors. the Tank Man photo wouldn’t be so infamous but for the Streisand effect caused by PRC’s heavy-handed censorship. rumors of a massacre in the Square would be easy to dispel if foreign journalists were allowed to stay and film. but protests were an embarrassment to China, and China sweeps embarrassments under the rug.
Army or military? There are several branches of the military, Army is just one.
Edited
If you honestly think they have an issue with following illegal orders, I think you should take a look at The Kent State massacre
The military has done some horrible stuff but going back 50+ years to prove how they feel today seems a stretch.
Even if it was over 50 years ago it was a significant point in history that a lot of people seem to forget, and was a major turning point for the public during Vietnam. It’s also relevant to today with what’s happening.
Yes, but no one serving then is serving now. Leadership has cycled many times. I mean, how far do you take this? Can you use events from 200 years ago to claim how a group thinks?
Also culture has changed, the type of people in the service has changed, so much has changed in 50 years. This is ignoring all nuance.
Ah, so you think learning from history is pointless because it’s not happening here and now, gotcha.
… How dishonest.
Learning from history is one thing. Holding people accountable for the actions of others, from before they were even born, is stupid.
But you knew that. You’re just trolling or hate the military too much to think clearly.
But let’s follow your logic. Let’s take actions of people in the past and apply them now. So, given the holocaust I’m assuming you think all present day Germans hate Jews and want them to die? I mean we need to learn from the past right? Just because it’s not happening here and now you can’t ignore it. Right?
How myopic, asinine, and worst of all, willingly ignorant.
Since you have no regard for learning, enjoy doing everything from scratch.
So just insults. No counter point, no logic. Just yelling that I’m wrong and you’re right? How convincing.
If you had any logic to stand on you’d present it. But you don’t. And you’ll find every excuse not to provide any. You know you’re wrong, you’re just too proud to admit it my guy.
Get literally any soldier who was deployed to iraq or afghanistan drunk and they’ll tell you about unpunished warcrimes they witnessed or participated in.
I served in the military. You don’t seem to know much about it.
Literally any soldier? Really? The cooks? The guy at the mechanic shop? Literally any soldier?
Not everyone is going out on patrol. Not every soldier is committing a war crime. I’ve known dozens of people who went over seas and didn’t even see a hint of action. WTF is with these wild assumptions being passed as facts.
Does it happen, for fucking sure. But not at the level you seem to be implying. Not at all. People let their emotions rule over reason way too much.
I feel like you could use critical thinking and assume I’m talking about people who saw action.
Support staff aren’t innocent either to me. They supported the mission and it couldn’t have been done without them.
You said literally any soldier, so maybe say what you mean instead of being hyperbolic and then blaming people for thinking you mean what you actually said. You choose those words. You didn’t even say, “ask any soldier” you really wanted to classify it with “ask literally any soldier”. So if that’s not what you meant, why did you make that absurd claim? I don’t rely on people making assumptions when I present a point. That is wild…
And even then, I know people do have been in action and not witnessed any war crimes. I’ve known lots of these people, across a large sample. You’re in your room making baseless assumptions.
Yah, every guy making sure you get fed really condones war crimes. You lack any sense of nuance or actual understanding.
You’re just throwing out grand, sweeping claims…
Making sure I get fed? What exactly has the military done to secure food security? You’re complaining about hyperbole and make dumbass claims like that lol
They’re not baseless assumptions either. I’m sure your chud friends have seen plenty of horrific shit and they just don’t consider it bad, nor war crimes. I know people that have sniped unarmed civilians in Afghanistan and they considered it a way to alleviate boredom. There’s a couple people in my state that even got convicted of war crimes at Abu gharib but ended up getting set free.
Making sure I get fed? What exactly has the military done to secure food security? You’re complaining about hyperbole and make dumbass claims like that lol
Shoot, my bad. I forgot how easily confused you get. They keep the soldiers fed. I thought that was obvious from context, but I guess back to spoon feeding.
They’re not baseless assumptions either. I’m sure your chud friends have seen plenty of horrific shit and they just don’t consider it bad, nor war crimes.
They’re not baseless? You’re assuming you know my friends better than I do. Friends who were in the military with me, a life you clearly don’t understand or have ever experienced. But you claim with confidence to know what they consider bad? This is baseless by definition. You’re whole stance is based on assumptions.
But prove me wrong, my good friend Sgt Holt, what did he see that was a war crime? I’m curious since you seem to know so well.
I know people that have sniped unarmed civilians in Afghanistan and they considered it a way to alleviate boredom.
Lol first off I call bullshit. A sniper is not setting up a nest then giving away and drawing attention to that nest for no reason. That’s how you eat an RPG. Your basic lack of military knowledge is making your lies transparent AF lol.
There’s a couple people in my state that even got convicted of war crimes
Oh shit! A couple people got convicted of war crimes so every single soldier ever has committed war crimes. You are delusional and not living in reality guy. Do you apply this logic to every group? Because I’m sure you’re part of a group that has had members of that group so horrible things.
What a smart person would do is realize that each person is an individual and not judge an entire, massive group of people based on the actions of some people in that group.
Fuck off. I have 3 deployments under my belt and 0 war crimes. Some of us are just born poor as fuck and wanted to go to college. The military honestly isn’t some monolithic entity… 90% of the people on this thread literally have never talked to a service member and it shows lol
I have them in my family and have heard their stories. I don’t care what reason you justify joining. You acted as a tool of imperalism against people who did not deserve it.
I guess it’s a good thing I don’t care how you feel about it. I grew up and learned in the military. It shaped me into the man I am and the skills and discipline I learned have done me a world of good. You don’t have to like it but you don’t get to shit on it. You haven’t done anything to earn the right to judge me.
Anyone who answers this question is doing so at risk to their career. I hope they do either way.
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Yeah I know. But I’m curious to know if they support the president even if he decides for a coup. Just curious not american
Some definitely do. The majority may not support it on its face, but will follow orders to a far point.
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Are they allowed on Lemmy? Partially sarcastic
As individuals yes, as representatives of the armed forces? Not likely. Anonymity helps, but I’m sure many would be wary of posting anything contrarian views right now.
Lemmy isn’t anonymous, it’s pseudonomyous.
Depends on what a person posts, but yes I’ll give you that. I can’t see it being anonymous from the government if they wanted to find out someone’s identity.
and even then, finding out can simply be a matter of knowing who subscribes to that ip. on some places all they have to do is ask the admin nicely.
i’m surprised theres no public tool to extrapolate someones identity for the lemmy posting history just yet, like there is for reddit.
Probably not a large enough user base to warrant it yet.
.
Is anybody not allowed on Lemmy? It’s a federated platform
Yeah, since it’s “peace time” and less risk there’s probably a decent chunk of the armed forces who are just in it for the perks ( free college, Healthcare) and don’t believe in it and are trying to serve there time and get out and not make a career of it.
They aren’t cops who almost always want to be cops and make it a core part of their identity and belief system. They aren’t allowed on lemmy.
I have no horse in this race :)
The fascist armed forces do and they have them trample on protesters.
Normally they just terrorise brown people, also nice that they don’t have to take a plane to do that now.
They’ve never had any problems with any of the other crimes against humanity they were ordered to do so why start now? They literally think they should be hailed as gods in the US and anyone who doesn’t is a traitor, you think they’d have any qualms about killing protestors when they’ve already been told that they’re anti-US terrorist scum?
It’s literally the exact same tactics the IDF uses. Wonder who Israel learned it from.
Have you talked to anyone in the armed forces? Many of them are there because they grew up poor and in the U.S. joining the military can be a good way to get out of poverty.
Only a tiny fraction actually do any combat and even fewer commit war crimes. The main ones committing “war crimes” is Congress who does things like give weapons to Israel.
The majority of gang members also grew up poor and joined a gang to get out of poverty. Does that make it justified?
Justified is different than calling anyone who tried joining at 18 scum and immediately dismissing them, which is also true for someone who joined a gang at 18
Yankistanis always have talking points that deflect their own wrongdoings but does not apply to others in similar scenario.
Nice false equivalency
I volunteered for the Army on my birthday They draft the white trash first around here anyway
