It’s an exceptionally bad idea to get the state involved in picking which interpretations of a religion are going to be defended.
Cyprus pretty much has this kind of law, and the Chruch loves tormenting even dissenting Christian theologians or prominent people of faith who disagree with the Church with it, let alone critics who aren’t part of the religion at all.
Hmpf. In my opinion this is not as great a threat to atheism as it may seem. As far as I understand it is still allowed to defame Islamic text in other ways e.g. by shredding or exposure to extreme kinetic forces.
Wow, giving in to the threats of people from another side of the planet. Plus don’t they really have any idea what it says about non-Muslim people? Especially women? And of course children!?
Sending clear message that violence is an acceptable and working political tool. Climate protesters need to up their game.
They should, violence absolutely works. It’s just that no one knows what it’ll cost until it’s all over, and there’s no way to know until it’s done. Using violence is going all in, and only a fool thinks they can never lose.
While I’m sure most people doing this are just irl trolls looking for outrage rather than making any deeper political point, the return of blasphemy laws to Europe after we spent so long removing them and lowering religions influcance seems like a backwards step.
He added that there must “be room for religious criticism” and that there were no plans to reintroducing a blasphemy clause that was repealed in 2017.
But you knew that, because you read the article you commented on, right?
O superior one, we thank thee for thy presence
Yeah, reading the article you want to comment on is difficult. Requires actually putting in 10 minutes of effort instead of just being outraged at a headline
Ah yes wise one. If only we could be like thee, we would know th danish government promises to not do worse!
They can say what they want, but when they’re adding special protections for one piece of literature as it’s a religious one, that’s what they’re already doing.
They want to add it for holy scriptures in general. So your book of the flying spaghettimonster should be protected, too.
How does that make it better?
It’s a law that protects religious books in a way non-religious books aren’t, just because it offends religious people. I don’t understand how that’s not a blasphemy law, Book Edition.
It’s not a question of blasphemy. It’s a question of incitement against ethnic/religious groups.
You can get a permit, grab a speaker. And talk about how the islam is doing this bad thing, that bad thing, and those bad things.
What you can’t do, is grab the microphone and say muslims are subhuman worthless rats that does nothing but chug camel-piss and beat their wives.
It’s not blasphemous, it’s incitement against an ethnic group.
This would probably fall under the same category if they pass it. As of now, It’s just a proposition to be voted on
What you can’t do, is grab the microphone and say muslims are subhuman worthless rats that does nothing but chug camel-piss and beat their wives.
But that has nothing to do with book burnings, no? Either that was already illegal hate speech or it won’t even be affected by this new law.
Book burnings should stay legal exactly because they aren’t degrading anyone. Just an object. They are only inciting violence from the very religious POV that the books themselves hold the rights a person has. But they don’t - and they shouldn’t. Comparing violence towards things with violence towards people is simply being dishonest, or in the worst case it means adopting the perspective of religious extremists.
Book burnings should stay legal exactly because they aren’t degrading anyone.
So, you’re going to decide that no one can feel degraded by having their religious scripture burned, just because you can’t comprehend the feelings others.
That’s a very strange take, given that we’ve all seen what the reactions of Muslims around the world has been. A fair amount of them clearly feel very strongly about this. It is after all, their, scripture.
It’s not just extremists that are upset. We should not give in to extremeists demands under threat of violence, But just because they want something doesn’t mean there isn’t other good reasons to do it.
But that has nothing to do with book burnings, no? Either that was already illegal hate speech or it won’t even be affected by this new law.
It has everything to do with incitement against ethnic groups. Which is exactly what they’re trying to expand
They are only inciting violence from the very religious POV that the books themselves
Yes! That is. Incitement against ethnic groups. You’re targeting a specific ethnic group with your action, and you provoke and insult them for belonging to that group.
Just like if you burn an Italian flag outside of the embassy of Italy. Italians would rightfully be upset. So you’re not allowed to do that. Or will you use the same logic there “they are only inciting violence from the very Italian POV that the flag themselves”?
You still don’t seem to understand, you will be able to burn any good damn book you want. Just not in public. Not in the town square. Not outside of an embassy.
They’re not telling you can’t do it. They’re telling you where, you can’t do it.
You will still have the freedom as an individual, to go into your back yard, and burn as many books as your heart desires. Hell, you can even invite all of your friend so they can come and watch you burn books.
The public act is exactly what should stay legal. This is not a debate about fire hazards and matters of insurance after all, it is about the right of expression, and that is a debate about behavior in public.
So, you’re going to decide that no one can feel degraded by having their religious scripture burned, just because you can’t comprehend the feelings others.
They have the right to feel like however they like. You for example are free to feel sad, angry, happy, horny, offended, relieved, or anxious about this comment of mine. But none of those are what I intent to incite. So you feeling one way about my comment shouldn’t be the only consideration when it comes to questioning if my comment should be legal. It shouldn’t be disregarded altogether either - but the right of expression is an incredibly important legal asset, and such a trade off shouldn’t be made lightly.
A book burning with calls to violence against humans - that, definitely, should be (and is) illegal. A book burning as an expression of “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” - that is not a call to violence, that is a valid expression of your democratic rights. Intent matters.
We should not give in to extremeists demands under threat of violence
But in effect, if this law gets ratified, we are.
What you’re debating and arguing for does not exist. You do NOT have the right to express yourself in any way you see fit. You are constrained by the laws governing your country. And believe me. There are laws against certain types of expression.
Burning forgein flags is a form of expression. You are not allowed to do that in public. But I don’t see you going on about how it’s infringing on your freedom.
You quote half of what I said to then reply that “but in effect we are”.
Had you quoted the entire thing, the answer and retort is already there. If you don’t sleep at least 5 hours in the next 5 days I will spit at your house and piss on your cat.
Are you giving in on my demand by sleeping at night? Or is it because of other, unrelated reasons?
Your whole argument of, I should be allowed to express myself in any way shape or form that I see fit. Is not a good one. Because you do not have that right.
How many times have you gone out and burned books in public? Do you typically attend book burnings? Is that some holiday you have that you need to preserve. You go out and burn a Bible every other week?
Or is this a thing that no one does. Except those who wish to provoke and insult? Can you mention any book burnings in recent times in Denmark that was not about provoking and insulting?
Kinda unsettles me a bit. To be clear, I don’t want violence. But I also don’t think that burning an object should be punishable. And that goes for stuff like my country flag, my pride flag, my bible. People should have the freedom of expression, even if their expression is a bad take or a waste of paper and nylon.
I just wish everyone could be more chill. Half the people need to quit being assholes, and the other half need to take 12 seconds to calm down and not freak out over something small. We have much bigger things to freak out about that we should be (constructively) freaking out about, like the collapse of entire food chains due to overfishing.
Fuck religion. Time and time again eroding our rights. Shame on the Danish government who is bending down to violence and superstition.
Democracy means letting people with other world views exist in peace.
Please consider how you want to be treated by this world and how you can make your own positive impact on humans around you.
I am an atheist myself and will vehemently defend secularism but your comment boils down to hate and demanding others have the exact same beliefs as you do.
You cannot honestly say you support both secularism and this law at the same time. Either you do, or you dont.
And this law does exactly what you said: impose a belief upon others
No, it stops you from burning a religious symbol in public. Secularity means that state and church are separate, which is a different matter. A lack of secularity would mean you can go on trial for not following the word of some god e.g. for loving someone from the same sex.
These are terrible and should be fought.
Bu this particular law is stopping assholes from being assholes.
Book-burnings also had a severely terrible history in the 3rd reich and are nothing but demonstrations of power, hate and close-mindedness.
Don´t bother my dude, the Islamophobes are triggered and unable to question themselves …
I view all religions as a threat to humanity. I question the people reading books that were written thousands of years ago and believe the bullshit stories contained within them…
I´m an atheist myself but let´s be reasonable here. While things like not properly separating church and state, religious extremism and fundamentalism are obviously threats to a “free” society, it is an overstatement and a generalization to say religions in general would be.
I don’t think that applies here. Why would you ever burn a Quran IN PUBLIC? If you are not religious, or subscribe to other religions, why would you even own a quran? Quran burning in public has only one purpose, to provoke hate. Same as burning flags in public. Or hating certain groups of people in public. None of it is allowed or ok to do.
If you burn that thing at home or throw it in the trash, nobody will care. Otherwise it just falls into the “incite violence” category of things, because that is exactly the thing you are doing.
If moslems then go into a rage and be violent themselves, that isn’t ok either, that should be clear.
You should be allowed to display your beliefs in public, regardless of how enraged they might make others. You shouldn’t be allowed to make direct threats, but anything else should be fair game.
I completely agree with you and @pizzazz@lemmy.world. Keep in mind though that in most European countries some harmless displays of belief are already banned, for example burning the national flag.
Then in Germany and Austria you can be arrested just for looking at a swastika on your phone.
This is simply false. In Germany, the swastika may be used in the context of education, art and some other places.
You are simply not allowed to march up and down the street with a swastika flag, which seems very reasonable.
Then in Germany and Austria you can be arrested just for looking at a swastika on your phone.
You absolutely cannot.
This is provided those beliefs are not offensive. If someone finds those practises offensive then do them out of the view of the public.
Religious violence should have a law encompassing this. People should never be allowed to use religion as an excuse to use violence: this is why we have a legal system. I do not understand why most countries in Europe are tolerant on this when it comes to the Muslim and Jewish communities.
The government isn’t your friend and should have no business deciding what’s “offensive” or not enough to be banned.
O aye so who should make that call?
Nobody should be the “offended police”
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
The average man. Discourage offensive behavior with social consequences, not government oppression.
That worked well with Hitler didn’t it?
People are idiots who follow a crowd. Give me one justification for the Kardashians. Look at how long it took for gay rights laws. And then look at how long it is taking for those laws to be accepted. We still see homophobic and racial acts today. Relying on the good of people is simply crass.
Ehh, we saw how well that worked with the rise of fascism in the U.S.
Full title: "Danish government to put forward law making burning Quran and other religious texts illegal "
Fucking Assholes, Apologists and Democracy Enemies.
Fuck that and them.
- it has to be passed in a democratically elected parlament. It may not get passed.
- it is an extension of an existing law that forbid burning of flags (except the Danish flag Dannebrog)
- book burnings are for morons
- fuck you
There’s a difference between burning books because you want to eliminate what they contain, and burning the holy text of the religion you suffered under. I think it’s bad for people who weren’t raised under oppression justified by Islam to burn the Quran, but the person who started all this was an immigrant from Iraq. To some people the Quran is a symbol of peace love and their deeply held beliefs. I’ve known wonderful and liberated women who wore hijab. But to others it’s a symbol of brutal oppression, like the Iranian atheist lesbian I once met. The fact is that this situation is far more morally complicated than many equivalents would be.
I don’t think that the interesting question is really whether Islam is a good idea or a bad idea. I think that the interesting question is whether a form of condemnation of anything – Islam, another religion, or anything else – should be prohibited because some people don’t like it being condemned.
Replace Islam with Judaism and it becomes less clear. Hatred towards a religious minority can get really fucking bad and should be stamped out. But also hatred towards your own oppressors is always justified.
Burning a religious text as a public demonstration isn’t a mild condemnation. It doesn’t fall within the realm of civil discourse.
So yeah I think it should be allowed unless Dutch people start actively targeting Muslims. At which point the right to such demonstrations may need reconsideration.
You dont need to burn a Quran to condem Islam.Also it is not a form of constructive criticism. What would you say if people flock to burn Torahs instead? Would you also tell the jewish organizations that would protest it to be less sensitive?
You dont need to burn a Quran to condem Islam
No, but you certainly can choose that as your form of expression.
What would you say if people flock to burn Torahs instead?
That’s fine too.
- fuck you
- fuck you
- fuck you
- fuck you
- burning the fucking Quoran is the right way to dispose of it according to itself
- a democratically elected government can do undemocratic things (and they often do)
- the existing law is idiotic
burning the fucking Quoran is the right way to dispose of it according to itself
Please link to the verse of the Quran you refer to. I don’t believe you.
Why is the existing law idiotic? What problems do you have with it?
https://www.learnreligions.com/disposal-of-quran-2004546
Not a link to a Quran quote, but it mentions the 3 main ways Islamic teachings state to dispose of old/broken Qurans.
1.burying 2.placing in flowing water 3.burning
Also a fun fact, these only pertain to The Quran in Arabic. Any other language is not considered to be literally Allah’s words and does not have to be discarded in those ways.
old/broken
that is a very important differentiator here.
(except the Danish flag Dannebrog)
So burning the national flag is allowed?
Yes, I am proud to say that it is. Burning the danish flag is barely a provocation. The law is intended to stop individuals from provoking or threatening foreign nations, who may feel differently.
Interesting, thanks for sharing!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_desecration
It looks like most countries in mainland Europe either restrict flag desecration in general or desecration of their national flag.
Of the mainland Europe countries for which data exists, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, and Romania permit it, and Denmark prohibits desecration of international flags but permits desecration of the national flag.
It looks like the British tradition is to permit it – the UK, Ireland, Australia, the US, and Canada permit it (though New Zealand does not).
It looks like most countries around the world prohibit desecration of their own flag but permit desecration of those of others.
The only other countries that take the Danish approach (permit desecration of own but not of others) are Uruguay and Japan.
It looks like Europe is actually one of the most-restrictive places in the world in terms of flag desecration. Few countries around the world restrict both desecration of one’s own flag and the flag of other countries; almost all are in Europe, with only Israel and South Korea doing the same outside of Europe.
I am curious about the actual prosecution.
My dude! Thank you for being one of the few sane people in here!
Well said and agreed
Denmark over here negotiating with terrorists.
Negotiating? I’m thinking more of a word that rhymes with “urrender”.
Or defending a religious minority depending which way you look at it.
Religious minority? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, is currently neck and neck with Christianity, and is predicted to account for 70% of all religious people in the world - by far - in the next couple of decades. Minority? Pssh!
In Denmark?
Edit: it’s around 5%
Yes, bending down to the unreasonable demands of a particularly problematic religious minority.
I don’t know about unreasonable. It’s their holy text after all.
It’s always unreasonable when religious people make demands towards others outside their religion.
Yet people get pissed off when Christians do book burnings in America right?
You bet I am, but if burning books was the only or worst thing they did I couldn’t care less. Which is why it has to be legal for individuals to keep doing this. Doing it in the name of a government or powerful organisation - this is where it really starts to leave a bad aftertaste.
And just to be perfectly clear, people like me being pissed about something obviously won’t and shouldn’t be enough reason to ban anything. What definitely should be illegal is political meddling, something that connects religious groups in the US more with the religious extremists abroad this proposed law seeks to appease than some Dane with a Quran and a matchbook.
A religious minority that hates other religious minorities/genders/sexual preferences
Not been my experience with the Muslims I know personally.
Tell me your race, gender and sexual orientation. I mean we all know what they are if you are getting along with them
White, non binary maybe, pan.
What races do “they” supposedly like?
I think your problem is your judging a large group by it’s lost extreme members.
Like I’m sure there’s plenty of lovely Christians in America but the vie wi get from over the pong is they’re a bunch of completely insane morons.
deleted by creator
For those people who do not understand why this law was made it is because not that long ago in Denmark a crazy man burned the Quran which resulted in a lot of havoc which resulted in hundreds of cars that were either burned or destroyed so for something like that to not happen again they banned burning religious things
Or they could arrest the criminals that rioted…
If they burned bibles, would the same thing happen?
Can they still draw Mohammed though?
Sooo… other countries burning flags of other nations in public is okay, but this is not?
Even if this has whataboutism-character and I appreciate the take of “making it better, even if others don’t”, I can’t deny there is some irony to that.
Sooo… other countries burning flags of other nations in public is okay, but this is not?
According to Danes, yeah seems like it. They don’t seem particularly bothered by those other countries burning their flag.
iirc burning flags of other nations is also not ok
And yet such non-EU countries don’t deliver consequences.
No, burning other countries flags is prohibited in denmark, burning the danish flag is ok
I’ve explicitly excluded denmark.
other countries burning flags of other nations in public
Governments should not be allowed to burn books.
Private citizens should be allowed to burn any books they own.
Neither governments nor private citizens should be allowed to harm or threaten people who burn their own damn books.
Example: you can purchase a dozen copies of “On The Origin of Species”, burn them, and I will very happily not threaten to behead you. Easy.
“The bill will make it punishable, for example, to burn the Quran or the Bible in public. It will only aim at actions in a public place or with the intention of spreading in a wider circle,” Hummelgaard said
Hummelgaard told a news conference that the recent protests were “senseless taunts that have no other purpose than to create discord and hatred.”
I agree with Hummelgaard. Those “protests” are used to create hatred. Even though it is also for me not comprehensible how people can be so sensitive about this, we all know the reaction it provokes. And even though we don’t agree and comprehend those feelings, we can still respect those feelings and just not senselessly create disruption. And hey… You can still burn as many Qurans in your private oven as you want.
The intent is secondary to the effect. If certain muslim people cannot put their religious sensibilities BELOW the secular human rights of their fellow country men, they LITERALLY need to leave. They are literally bad for us, and our social, secular order. EXACTLY like the hardcore christians are bad for human rights in the USA.
Are you asking the hardcore Christians to leave? Or is that reserved for those you deem as foreign?
“The bill will make it punishable, for example, for people of the same sex to kiss in public. It will only aim at actions in a public place or with the intention of spreading in a wider circle,” Hummelgaard said
I agree with Hummelgaard. Those “protests” are used to create hatred. Even though it is also for me not comprehensible how people can be so sensitive about this, we all know the reaction it provokes. And even though we don’t agree and comprehend those feelings, we can still respect those feelings and just not senselessly create disruption. And hey… You can still kiss as many people of the same sex in private as you want.
This isn’t an exaggeration: a few weeks ago in Ottawa we had anti-LGBT protests where rainbow flags were burned down – guess who was there? And while many of us were offended and appalled, nobody was threatened or beheaded in response, and we didn’t have politicians trying to pass a new law forbidding the burning of rainbow flags either.
The whole point of this is that in Europe we have fought for centuries in order to establish liberal democracies where freedom of speech and the separation of church and state are enshrined. We must not appease extremists who achieve change with threats of violence. There is a name for that.
In a democracy the act of burning a book, or a flag, is a canary in the coal mine: you know there is trouble when it dies.
The message is simple: we don’t threaten people who have different ideas.
you do realize that the people burning lgbt flags now, will burn lgbt people, or whoever they think to be lgbt, if they get the chance to?
Destroying symbols of a group is a step in the escalation to killing people of that group. Source: two millenia of antisemitism in europe. First you attack the symbols, then the places and finally the people.
you do realize that the people burning lgbt flags now, will burn lgbt people, or whoever they think to be lgbt, if they get the chance to?
Yes, that is part of the point I’m trying to make. I am queer and thus scared of our governments appeasing these dangerous idiots. It starts by banning burning their stupid books, and god knows where it ends.
People should be able to burn a stupid book without fearing for their lives. Just like they should be able to burn a flag or any other symbol.
People like me don’t harm Muslims. I wish I could say the opposite.
The common thread between both is religious extremism.
How is this blasphemy law different from the draconian anti-LGBT or anti-abortion laws in the USA? BOTH ARE JUSTIFIED with purely with religious feelings/opinions.
Burning books is not compareable with having the right to life your sexuality. You can life a happy and fullfilled life without ever burning a religious book. Having to closet your sexuality does not allow for that.
Also it is wrong to speak about blasphemy laws, implying the state would try to enforce its religion by forbidding criticism against it, you know like the actual blasphemy laws were about. This here is about preventing public hate speech, which serves nothing except to incite violence.
We can not have a modern society where people feel strongly about religion. And there is really no point in appeasement of fundamentalists - they don’t want a compromise they allays want it all.
I agree with that statement. However - the world is not a modern society in most places yet and we can´t expect the rest of the world to simply adopt our values because we would like them to. They have to get there by themselves, in a long painful process of social evolution - just as we did. We need to make sure to not allow any of our hard earned freedoms to be taken away, which are under constant attack from multiple sides, not just religious forces but also authoritarians of different political directions, capitalists and so on. At the same time we have to respect other cultures and their individual development. It´s a challenge and sometimes there might have to be compromise but I think not burning books in public is really acceptable and nobody will suffer from not doing it. Full expression of thought is perfectly possible just by speaking, no book burning required for that.
Imo it also should be considered that western colonialism often had a devastating effect on the social evolution of eastern countries. Just think of the history of Iran for example. Iran was on the way to become a lighthouse of democracy in the region by it´s own development and would now probably have been a democracy for decades if the west would not have intervened and prevented that (Operation Ajax). This caused Iran to become one of the worst theocratic dictatorships instead. That does not make the fundamentalists any better of course but it can also not be ignored in the context of this discussion.
Again there is no point in appeasing fundamentalist. They don’t want the finger or the hand, they want the whole state to run by their rules - they are not searching for a compromise. Sure, nobody sane is really in favor for burning books - but what is the point, they won’t be any happier with that and will work on the next thing that is offending their archaic views of the world.
Full expression of thought is perfectly possible just by speaking, no book burning required for that.
Where do you draw the line of what is considered acceptable form of expression?
It’s not that I like, I would say - I even despise people burning books. But in my opinion, everyone has the right to do so - since in the end no direct harm is caused to anyone.
One important point is imo that publicly burning the Quran as a provocation does not just offend the few fundamentalists but all believing Muslims in the world, also the moderate ones. That they don´t get angry and violent like the fundamentalists does not mean it´s not offensive to them. Because of this I consider not burning the Quran publicly simply as normal and polite behavior towards all Muslims -especially the moderate ones- and not at all as a form of appeasement to fundamentalists.
but all believing Muslims in the world,
Than all believing Muslims are fundamentalists. But we both know that that’s not the case. Moderate Muslims per definition don’t give shit. Like moderate Christians don’t care if you burn a bible. Or I don’t care if you burn a biography of Darwin. Sure I will think you are a dumb person to avoid. But ultimately it’s up to you, not my business.
Also where do you draw the line? Homosexuality and modern view of women rights is offensive to conservative Muslims. Therefore, I prefer to draw a line at actual direkt harm to other people. Burning books, dumb and provocative - but so is a good portion of art.
It´s not that simple. There is a wide spectrum between feeling offended and reacting with terrorism, don´t you agree?
yeah, clearly the compromise needs to be burning symbols of a group in public to stir hatred and violence against that group. That is totally the reasonable compromise. Clearly the people wanting the right to burn things in public are not fundamentalist, after all basically everyone burns a Quran, or Torah or Bible for breakfast amirite?
Look at the real-world consequences of mocking Islam, of drawing prophet Muhamed, or burning the Qur’an.
Compare them with the real-world consequences of mocking any other religion (or atheism), or burning their “sacred” books.
Are they comparable? Who is then the oppressor, and who is the oppressed?
The US conservatives and Hillary Clinton were calling for war against Iran because the people there burnt US flags. Trump then bombed a person invited on a diplomatic talk with the US, which is one of the worst crimes against diplomacy imaginable.
Or look at footbal fans hostile to each other, where symbols of the enemy team are burnt vice versa until it escalates to violence.
Attacking symbols of groups in hate causes escalations all the time.
Or look at footbal fans hostile to each other, where symbols of the enemy team are burnt vice versa until it escalates to violence.
Indeed, football fans are famously known for their acts of violence, such as flying airliners into skyscrapers, countless suicide bombings, etc. All in the name of football.
I have no interest in Muslims being harmed in any way. They are literally my neighbors. At the same time, one must recognize that among them there are people with a a willingness to support and commit atrocities that is unparalleled today.
People who deny this are blind to reality. All sides are not equal.
and among us civilised western europeans there are many fascists murdering muslims or people assumed to be such or deemed as supporters of them. Anders Breivik murdered over 70 teenagers because of his ideology of fearing a muslim takeover of europe. When you measure muslims by their worst, then you need to measure yourself by people like Breivik too.
I hope you see why that doesnt make sense in either case and is certainly no justification for allowing hate speech in the form of burning symbols of a group subject to discrimination.
deleted by creator
I personally really do not like religion. And if you buy a quran and burn it at home, nothing will happen. Nobody will care.
But what is your desired outcome, if you take the book that is holy to some, and burn it infront of their eyes? There is only one answer to this and that answer is the reason for these laws. You cannot go to a pride parade and burn rainbow flags in front of their eyes either. It is rather obvious why.
You cannot go to a pride parade and burn rainbow flags in front of their eyes either. It is rather obvious why.
What are you talking about? This is pretty much what happened in Ottawa a few weeks ago, so there is no need to hypothesize. What happened to them? Nothing at all.
Queer folks don’t behead Muslims. Queer folks do not stone Muslims.
Can the Danish government ban books thats are against homosexuality?
