I know that there are a lot of trans people on hexbear, and I know their beliefs are sincere. What I don’t understand is how they square the fact that they would be brutally suppressed, raped, tortured, murdered by the very groups/governments they unwaveringly love and support. It sickens me. Is it a manifestation of self-hatred? I just don’t get why they would degrade themselves like this.
Lol some top comments from their struggle thread following this one:
Stupid fucking ass moron liberals can’t fathom having multiple different priorities, and in this case holding internationalism and socialism through anti-imperialism as a priority above sexuality or gender-identity.
I actually think they CAN comprehend it because they all hold nationalism above these things anyway. Gender-identity and sexuality to them are deprioritised when it comes to America’s strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia for example, why? Because they are nationalists that place their nationalism and supremacy above that of these issues.
The good old “well, they’re muslim so they have to be as bad as the Taliban/ISIS and completely indistinguishable. I won’t look into this at all.” thing. Israel’s policies are in line with many of these nations on LGBTQ, with exceptions only to pink-wash their genocidal ethno-state.
LMAO I got 4 comments deep in their thread before I bailed from the radioactive dumbassery. First one accused me of masturbating while writing this post (WTF?!), second accused me of supporting bombing those countries (I don’t), third was defending non-voters (Because Trump loves LGBT, Iran, and Palestine, right guys?) and the fourth said Iran has better trans healthcare than the US ( Hmmm… Wonder what that could be about…)
I usually just lurk blahaj occaisionally but your post annoyed me enough to post for the first time in 2 years
From their thread:
https://hexbear.net/post/5521160
Most places in the world are fairly equally shit for trans people. If a place is doing well, it is often hard for trans people still. If a place is in war and in famine, downgrade those conditions a step as you would if it were somewhere nice and calm.
And Iran isn’t even the worst conditions. Of the countries with the most trans surgeries, the USA is number one, Thailand is two, and Iran is three. Iran’s major cities are very modern and even look nicer to live in than many American ones.
Cost of living is very important to trans people, as we are often making less due to discrimination. Every trans person I’ve talked to in China has mentioned the discrimination and some unusual cultural quirks, but they’ve also mentioned they’ve not met a single homeless trans person. For the record, it’s very easy to find homeless trans people in America, you can find some on hexbear even in our mutual aid comm. And despite the discrimination, these Chinese trans people have cheap housing in the downtown of major cities
And Iran isn’t even the worst conditions. Of the countries with the most trans surgeries, the USA is number one, Thailand is two, and Iran is three.
Do they… do they realize this is because the death penalty for gay folks means that many opt for transitioning into a gender they don’t identify with over death?
but they’ve also mentioned they’ve not met a single homeless trans person.
Oh good, shipping homeless people out of sight and out of mind has worked then, glory to the People’s Republic of China!
Really? Right in front of my blahaj.zone?
I’m pretty sure if someone posts something transphobic, ada personally hunts them down and shoots them with a rifle.
Or denies the existence of dragons.
They’re attention whores, and you willingly feed them.
For the most part because you can support their right not to be bombed into oblivion to further America’s imperial ambitions and also disagree with how they treat their lgbtq people. Often these countries were left leaning in the past until America installed a right-wing government.
But you can support these people without supporting their corrupt and violent government?
I stand for solidarity with all peoples, not their rulers.
Often these countries were left leaning in the past until America installed a right-wing government
Ahh, we’re lying again.
The U.S has backed fascists and dictators in other countries before.
Edit: downvote me all you wish, it doesn’t change the fact that the U.S backed fascists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_PinochetAlmost exclusively backed fascists and dictators one might say. Important facet of the Cold War, “say what you will about fascists, they will never go soft on Communists.”
it’s not a lie necessarily but i’d agree that it’s disingenuous to point towards these moments in history and to then use that as a tenuous basis for implying that the right-wing extremism in the middle east just popped up one day out of a vacuum only because evil american goblins invaded the land. i am well aware of what the OP comment is referring to, generally, but the description of these societies as “left-leaning” doesn’t really land for me. like i said, it’s not necessarily wrong but it’s somewhat disingenuous and binary to say that.
surprise, every society-at-scale, ever, has been metrically shit and had a significant contingent of traditionalist and bigots that form the bedrock of the historical “go-fuck-yourself-with-a-stick-of-razorblades” party.
It is both an outgrowth of UK and US directly funding and supporting Muslim extremism to divide opposition to colonialism/imperialism since Jews, Christians, and leftists would be alienated and the rally around the flag type of effect of using already at-hand identity markers to opposed invaders and oppressors. The entire cold war was the US and sometimes their vassals like Saudi Arabia funding and supporting Islamism, as a counterweight to secular leftist forms of anti-colonialism, which they were actively suppressing, because of its incompatibility with socialism/communism.
Most easy and obvious examples is the Mujaheddin, aka proto-Al Qaeda and Taliban precursor. And Israel supporting Hamas over the PLO since the PLO was a secular organization that appealed to human rights.
you’ll sway more hearts and minds if you actually engage your audience, not spoken maliciously.
being catty like this is anti-intellectual and serves to degrade spaces, even if it can be cathartic at times.
like, just practically speaking i saw a guy earlier on lemmy do the exact same thing and just drop a link to wikipedia in response to discourse and then sit there and look at the other person like smug wojack.
i even agreed with that guy’s position and i watched him do it, cheering on from the sidelines like it was some wrestling match. i upvoted him. but then later i went back and undid my vote because i realized that his detractors had a legitimate criticism - that this behavior is thought-terminating and patently shit on a forum intended for discourse and discussion.
think about it. the people who likely need to read, analyze, and consider that article are going to take the way you just shared it as smug and immediately ignore any point you were possibly trying to make, because they aren’t even going to engage any further than their initial flippant reaction. and that’s not their fault, it’s yours for setting up this subpar rhetorical framing.
on the other hand, people who already agree with you will sit on the sidelines and hoot and cheer and howl and bark because they came to the arena to see blood - just like me earlier in this comment. it’s a human response. without an actual audience, though, it becomes clear the intention of your comment isn’t to spread information or praxis… no, this comment serves as a vector for circlejerking much more than it is a genuine attempt at activism. and i think even if you disagree, deep down you have to know that on some level.
sorry, i don’t mean to single you out but this style of exchange has become all too common in public discourse nowadays and i hate it because it’s like a fucking sports match. just shout louder, be more smug, be more persistent… and then you “win” the argument, whatever that means… this isn’t what debate, dialectic, and discourse are about!
You’re not wrong that I could have been more engaging that just dropping a link but it didn’t seem like there would be much point when the person I was responding to was just calling me a liar. I’m way too burnt out to argue with people and proselytize/do praxis in general but op asked a question so I figured I would answer.
My understanding is that the majority of them want to see America fall (for good reason IMO, we’re just billionaire slaves) so they vocally support the opposition to America. They understand the terrible aspects of some of those countries, but given we live in a western propaganda machine that covers those issues readily they focus on pointing out Americas hypocrisy and highlighting all the issues that our propaganda agencys (news) ignore and sweep under the rug.
You’d be better of asking In an instance that isn’t defederated from them (like mine), I assume yours is defederated since nobody from hexbear is here yet.
Yeah but then they go and stay stupid shit like “censorship is a good thing”. So it’s kind of hard to understand the Tankie mind when they literally support oppression. Westerners may be brainwashed by propaganda but at least not all of them are authoritarian bootlickers.
Some of them actively Stan for the authoritarian regimes and deny their atrocities, even when there is concrete proof. Even when it’s obvious who is in the wrong.
Others are just pointing out why other countries respond negatively to the United States’ actions.
They are not the same.
This is MeanwhileOnGrad you’re writing in.
How hard is it to say you sympathize with the innocent civilians and agree all their warmongering leaders should be killed?
TBF, they do criticise Russia for its LGBT policies: https://feddit.uk/post/9516220
I don’t think they support (modern) russia, they do oppose ukraine though.
They most certainly support them
Wrt China, there were some threads about how why you shouldn´t move there if you´re lgbt+, but it´s all just a really smart play by the CCP “because such rights should come gradually and it would be too divisive at a time where their people need to stay united and strong”
It’s not like Israel would be any better.
I don’t support Israel either
Whatabout aside, in the specific areas of trans rights they are better than most of the places listed by OP, from what I can tell.
I mean, on the LGBT+ front, Israel is not going to imprison or murder you just for being queer like other countries would. But they might if you’re the wrong shade of brown and call their invisible sky daddy the wrong name, or even just have the wrong political opinions online. Or even if they think you’re close enough to any of these things that you’re probably enough of a bad person anyways.
But IIRC, Tel Aviv nevertheless has a notably robust queer community, so it’s probably still safer to simply exist there as a gay person compared to the 60+ countries where homosexuality is criminalized, or the subset of those where it can actually get you killed.
At any rate, countries/organizations can be bad in different ways, so I don’t think it invalidates what OP said, even if it’s possible to whatabout other examples that the hivemind would agree with more.
Israel did just specifically blow up Irans prison where they keep trans people
They attacked the HQ of a horrible religious militia which was physically linked to a prison where they held, amongst others, a lot of trans detainees. It´s Iran’s regime that´s claiming “oh look at how they´re specifically bombing our precious trans prisoners”
They’re both bad dude, but you can’t just act like Israel didn’t drop a bomb right on the roof of the prison for the specific purpose of killing a bunch of trans people. Their spies are sooooo smart as to know where the HQ of this malita is and when to bomb it, but not smart enough to say “hey drop the bomb 100ft to the left so we don’t kill all those prisoners for no reason”
I don´t think Israel is ´infallible´ in it´s bombing, and I don´t think Iran is honest in it´s communication
Here´s an article that gives a pretty factual and nuanced take on the situation
So did the Palestinians. My ex did a few journalistic pieces on that. Go look up Tanya Habjouqa and the photog work she did on middle east trans people. It’s fascinating, beautiful, and sad.
mandatory support of Hamas
Are you conflating the support of a nation with the support of a state that exercises control over that nation?
We aren’t, but hexbear seems to.
Hm. Alright.
Find one person who has a fully consistent ethical and moral framework. One.
You can’t just reply that to dismiss value criticism.
The criticism is that the instance isn’t consistent in it’s beliefs. My point is that no one is.
Sure, but “no one’s perfect” in the way you use it just ends up dismissing and sidelining valid criticism.
I mean… yeah. You guys are pointing at fucking tankies and expecting them to have a logically consistent framework for their beliefs. Lmao.
This should have been your first reply. The blanket statements were a bridge too far. This criticizes the actual instance and describes the problem.
“Whatabout”
bad bot
Consistency is so easy: “I’m right, everyone else is wrong, in all questions, for all eterntiy.” Done.
If anything my point would be closer to “I’m wrong, everyone else is wrong, in all questions, for all eternity.”
