When I first joined this community I saw it as a respite from reddit where I was free to chill with people without being constantly expected to debate or defend arguments or anything. Just a forum where people are nice.
Lately though it seems every active comment section is filled to the brim with, to be frank, obnoxious people who want nothing more than to fight with you about everything you say. I think they’re known as “debate bros.”
I’m not saying debate shouldn’t be happening but to be honest it’s disappointing seeing it be the only thing occurring. I’ve tried contributing in other fashions but have been met multiple times with people trying to start arguments with me about things or get me to defend “points” that I didn’t make. This in particular has been very annoying. I’ve reported every instance of this due to it not contributing but I feel as if that’s not helping.
I like talking to people I disagree with. I like conversing with differing opinions. But I feel alone in that this isn’t the only thing I want to do on a forum.
Again, I’m not trying to definitively say we shouldn’t debate at all, but just pointing out how prevalent it seems to be. Id like to just converse with people without being expected to make and defend points. I feel like that’s a major thing we should’ve left on Reddit.
If people want to debate then they can do that. I just dislike that it appears to become the base-level expectation for the instance.
Your father smelt of elderberries. :p
I wonder how much of this may relate to some folks not really knowing how else to try to interact online…? Maybe even offline as well?
Some seem primed to take any opportunity to argue, and for them I don’t think it registers negatively so much as simply how one discusses stuff. A sort of playfighting if you will, worrisome & exhausting if you’re not interested, but a joy (up to a point) to those that are.
When I experience an argumentative back and forth where it gets increasingly clear that the opposite person is arguing just to have a fight or is unable to see simple logic, I just stop responding. This has always been the best option for my mental health. Oops I didn’t realise this is quite an old post!
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From my perspective specifically as a Canadian, it seems that it’s an American/North American thing. Some threads I was in on reddit would be full of vitriol and hate until the Europeans woke up; then I would have some actual conversations. Of course, this is just what I think. May be other reasons for that.
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Can’t say I’ve noticed it on Beehaw but I have on some other instances. Just posted in one actually - was an interesting discussion on the nature of violence in media. One person immediately lashed out at the person and I’m struggling to see why as they were being civil and were just exploring ideas.
I think it’s a wider thing than Lemmy or even the internet. It feels like some kind of way of getting control over something for people who lack any control in other aspects of their lives. They can have it if they’re ‘right’ even if they have to attack people for it.
I can’t comment on beehaw specifically, but I do know I’ve seen it rise in popularity on Lemmy / The Fediverse, just as its generally prevalent on the internet itself (that’s the core of the problem, its not really a Reddit thing as much as it is an “internet” thing from what I’ve found).
Like you, I don’t mind debating something with someone when they attempt to do so in good faith - or if I post something incorrect then I’m happy to be corrected if someone isn’t rude about it. I do also try to make sure that if I post something, that I’m either sure its correct, or I provide some sort of hint that I’m not 100% sure about it.
I have the same feeling and the toxicity even gets over me sometimes, but that’s more of an Internet issue that just arrived when Lemmy got more popular. For example, I saw your comment regarding ES6 and that user that replied to you isn’t from Beehaw.
Yes, and I’ve been using beehaw less and less because of it.
I’ve felt that lemmy.world has. It feels much more like vintage Reddit.
Beehaw I haven’t experienced quite as much of the arguing for arguing’s sake. If someone’s arguing with me, they’re usually doing so in good faith.
This is what I think too. Lemmy.world also have a strong downvote culture, which seems to encourage them to pile on to each other.
I see tons of people across the threadiverse arguing that any community missing downvotes lacks any curation, which I find odd. Only upvotes tends to still propogate the best of what the zeitgeist to the top and inspire meaningful feedback when there’s a disagreement rather than just clicking on the “I don’t like this” button
I agree. If the downvote button really was used for sinking content like spam and trolling, that’s a point but it’s something that can be done with active moderation.
But since it’s used for disagreement, I don’t see the value.
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I’ve done a lot of reading since I joined here, and not much replying or posting. What I have noticed is that there does seem to be a certain number of people replying in different threads with similar arguments which end up getting people riled up. I am starting to recognize some of the user names, and I confess that when I see one now I tend to just drop the thread and stop reading.
I am not suggesting that what you are noticing in only due to that, since obviously there are a ton of people coming and going, but there are definitely “regular players” who seem to not know how to engage in a positive way - no matter what the topic. In some ways, I also think it’s likely to always be an inevitable issue here specifically since Beehaw has made its goals as a site quite clear. I think it just urks some people coming here that this site strives to be a positive, welcoming space and so the idea of compromising that is likely part of the appeal for the behaviour.
Yes. Lemmy/kbin/etc as well. I was just thinking to myself idk why I’m even on here. It feels like every comment I make, I end up having to defend myself, no matter how innocuous the comment.
I said it would be funny if the next elder scrolls games smashed expectations and was good, in an ironic kind of funny. I mentioned baldurs gate 3 due to it being also incredibly well received and was immediately met with a person who wanted to argue that the two games aren’t comparable.
I agree with them but I wasn’t even trying to make that argument in the first place. Just mentioned BG3 because it released like two weeks ago. Was very disappointing to see such a misrepresentation of what I said.
I saw that comment and literally thought to myself “Wow they are getting the same nerd hate that I keep getting. Is this everywhere?!”
I think that might have been a thread I called someone out for being unkind. They jumped to ad hominem in response to a really innocuous comment
Someone I called out recently for being unkind replied essentially saying that all of Beehaw are snowflakes for wanting to eliminate vitriol. That comment was deleted, I assume by a mod/admin, very quickly, so kudos to whoever was watching that thread/report!
I am very thankful to the volunteers trying to keep Beehaw true to its mandate. Hence why I’m trying to do my part by calling people out when they break the only rule here.
TL;DR:
Maybe that’s what will move the needle? If we, as non-mods, normalize calling out unkind behaviour then it derails the “performance snark” and ruins the “fun” of trolling.This is it and don’t forget it! Keeping Beehaw a nice place to be relies on people first reminding people who are verging on not nice behaviour, then reporting them if they continue or get worse. Have the pulse on your own emotions too, sometimes the answer to disengage and leave it be if you find yourself worked up by something.
For the newer Beehaw users, don’t be afraid to use the report button if talking it out doesn’t appear to fix unkind behaviour. Beehaw mods and admins can’t scan every single thread at this point.
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I’ve noticed this everywhere on Lemmy
Same here. And it’s been wave after wave of negativity of outside events flocking people. June Reddit API change, then Zuck @ Threads hate, Twitter to X shockwaves, and now Trump back on Twitter. It hasn’t been people seeking out positive as much as it’s been world wide web of anger.
Absence of disable inbox setting for comments or threads like on Reddit is also a contributor I think, since if you are the type to have to defend your comment then it leads to a back and forth that can go longer than on reddit since you will be made aware of the reply with no ability to turn it off for either party.
A block will turn it off.
I love your mindset
Nuh-uh.
You shut the front door 🤬, the back door and all the windows… The AC is running!
NUH-UH.
YUH - YA 😤😭
NNNUUHHH-UHHHHH.
If you keep all the AC inside, how are we gonna combat global warming?
Actually, now I’m wondering how large of an AC would it take to dump earth heat back out into space…
You might be onto something here…
I’ll notify the scientists 🥼 and the engineers
The more people in a public place, the more likely you are to get argumentative people in the mix. There’s going to be someone who throws the first punch.
I’m marginally attached to beehaw so maybe I’m not the best gauge to read, but I haven’t really noticed what you describe.
Enjoy your weekend!
I think the honey moon period is over for all instances and communities when people were motivated to comment with the goal of trying to encourage user growth by being nicer than they usually are.
Now that people are settling in they are more comfortable using the fediverse like they’ve done on social media. Which does change the type of posts and comments that now come out.
So arguments are expected for even trivial topics like games. It’s good or bad thing depending on the viewpoint, but was expected outcome since motivations for posting was much different in the earlier days.
There’s probably some truth to this, though in the interest of not being too pessimistic I do think that there’s still healthy meta discussion (like this thread) that perhaps serves to remind people of why they came here. As long as that continues you may perhaps see that, while there are still people settling into a comfortable old rut, the habitual reinforcement of the community’s norms and aspirations will have a longer term effect of tempering and readjusting those old mental habits.
If someone has used something like reddit for years it creates a well-worn mental “track” in their brain for formulating interaction, often negative. While people can consciously overcome that track over the short-term (as you aptly put it, the honey moon phase) reforming the track altogether takes time and habitual mindfulness. So continually going back to these questions of “are we, as a community, where we want to be?” has real value and might be part of the solution.
I think that it wasn’t a honey moon period, but more so people are getting settled in and attempting to bring in toxicity because some people just crave toxicity for no logical reason…
I think people crave drama. If you solved the world’s problems, people would go nuts over the smallest things. You see this with HOAs and rich neighborhoods where people literally have their lives solved so they go out and make more problems for themselves. Local problems that only they can solve. People are problem solvers and when you take their problems away, they start breaking stuff.
I don’t think this is just some people, I think everyone has this on some level. Some are better at finding problems to solve rather than making them. Some people start looking externally to their lives to find problems to solve and some people immediately create problems in their own life to solve. This is how you get volunteers and people contributing to society and also people complaining your lawn is too long or too brown.
While I’m not a psychologist, I read far too much crap online, so take this as a layman’s view.
There’s been a lot of research around the dopamine feedback loop around social media, as well as the fact that arguing and “winning” is a major dopamine hit, so I wouldn’t be the least bit shocked that a lot of the more toxic people are literally addicted to the dopamine that social networks give you that they’re arguing and posting for no other reason than their next hit.
Oh no, they quite literally are. You pretty much nailed the root of it, and also brought up a good point as to why for profit social media tends to become so harmful. Engagement is prioritized, and “winning” and arguing with people drives engagement due to the dopamine hit. That’s why you will constantly see rage bait promoted across social media. It makes money.
I guess the real question, ultimately, is how do you deprogram the worst elements of this cohort so that they can like… respond and converse like a normal human without having to argue every single thing and go on and on and on until they “win”? (Which, IMO, means the other person has just gotten tired of dealing with them more than anything else.)
I will happily admit I have absolutely no idea, and will also admit that I have on more than one occasion been That Guy Posting but I really really try to not let myself be.
I think it’s a matter of being mindful of it, creating an environment where it isn’t acceptable, as well as making sure that the algorithms that tend to generate the most toxicity don’t get added in.
To add on I think it is also a thing of social norms. So if a plurality in a post starts being argumentative then it can become the default way others talk in other parts of the post.
So it sort of is an “Embody the change you want to see” thing.
Absolutely. I am not perfect whatsoever, no one is but I try my best personally to make lemmy a nice place and as a community it’s our collective responsibility to at the very least try
I haven’t been here that long, but the dopamine hits are a familiar mechanism underpinning most social media these days – something I try to do as someone who has a lot of strong opinions on stuff and am pre-disposed to debate is to still give out votes to replies that disagree with me, even strongly, as long as they are thoughtful and reasoned.
I do it because I think sometimes people can recognize that gesture and it helps them check their attitude if it is getting a bit too aggressive, it can sometimes interrupt the “debate me bro” circuit that social media so often tries to reinforce. You basically give them the dopamine reward without them feeling they have to reach that extreme end of the debate to get it from someone. But, more importantly, it’s also a small action that forces me to swallow my pride and ego a tiny bit. Clicking upvote on something you disagree with is an acknowledgement that your own ego has its flaws. It’s an exercise in maintaining perspective.
I used to be against discussion-oriented social media that doesn’t have a downvote, but going from Reddit to Beehaw has made me really appreciate how downvotes can only really feed toxicity outside some very specific use cases. On reddit you’d more often get downvotes with no response or explanation, even for innocuous comments or simply content you shared with people. Which is disheartening and makes you start to behave in a paranoid way.
The way people used the downvote was not to moderate content that added nothing to the discussion, but simply to try and shutdown ideas and content that they personally didn’t like, which is a subtle but consequential difference. Removing the downvote means that the way to deal with unwanted content is now to either confront it with words or, if you have no real justification or argument you are willing to get into, take no action.
Instead of using the upvote as an ‘agree’ button I use it now as more of an acknowledgement of the person’s perspective as valid and not intentionally disrespectful, even if I disagree. It helps me reel myself back in if I feel that pull to dig my heels in to an unproductive degree.
