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Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France’s state-run schools, the education minister has said.
The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.
France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.
Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.
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I can understand that, the intolerant culture attached to islam really detremental to integration effort and harmony in france, and by that they hope to remove that label in schools, which hopefully will make people interact more across cultural groups, and further integration.
That kind of law doesn’t integrate anyone. It actually fuel racism and communautarism.
What’s good with these topics is that we instantly see who is a fascist though.
People forget what happened to countries like Lebanon and Iran.
This is not freedom.
Are you talking about the freedom of conservative religious men oppressing their women, their children and trying hard actively not to integrate into the society they live in?
So to protect the freedom of these women you deny them the freedom to wear a dress?
Holy fuck the racists are so stupid it’s surreal!
Yeah so extremely racist to protect women from religious extremists. Just the mindless name dropping again, calling everyone and everybody a racist.
Protecting women by telling them how to dress. That feels very much like 19th century.
You understand the dress is not even religious?
What percentage of husbands/street enforcers will beat her if she doesn’t wear it? Where do those cultural norms of modesty come from, pray tell?
No.
Forcing a person not to wear a type of clothing is just as bad forcing them to wear it. The reasons for either are not important.
You hear that the military? Stop forcing people in those ugly camo uniforms! Reasons for wearing them aren’t important!
So schoolchildren should be treated like they’re in the military?
The dream of any fascist is kid soldiers (also kid workers, they’re never productive soon enough).
This analogy is poor.
I was mostly for showing that forcing a clothing standard sometimes does have reasons. Team sports would be another one.
Also, banning every item of clothing that could be seen as religious, might turn into an endless game of whack-a-mole. So if France is so keen on secular clothing in schools, school uniforms seem like a legit option.
I am not a fan of school uniforms either.
Why can’t we just let kids decide what to wear? Especially when it isn’t even their own children. I generally let my kids pick out their own clothing. My middle school rolled out a uniform and it was an uncomfortable disaster. Always vowed that when I became a parent I wouldn’t do this to my own kids. Fun fact it isn’t illegal to take a picture of your shredded uniform you found in the attic and mail it to your old principal’s house with a note scrawled on it “fuck you for making me wear this”.
In any case team sports are also a really bad analogy. A small cross or head covering is not a distraction from learning the way kids not wearing sports stuff would be for the game.
I’m also not a fan of school uniforms in general and I don’t have personal expirence with them.
But the topic of dress codes came up a couple of time when I was in highschool. One of them even lead to a “ban” though, it was only school policy, not a law. But yeah, there were a couple of girls that really pushed the limits of how short they could make their tops and hotpants. I, of course, loved it at the time, but looking back as an adult, 14-16 year olds probably shouldn’t dress like that in school.
Another topic I even caused myself. I went through kind of a punk phase and one day showed up with steel-tipped boots and a 30cm, neon green mohawk. There were some complaints, but ultimatly nothing happened.
My point is, regulating clothing in certain public situation is quite common with widley varying regional standards. It’s not as simple as “everyone should be able to wear what they want”.
I don’t think anyone would confuse military service with freedom.
I get this completely. This is nothing new for France, they have been blocking Christians from wearing crosses and Jews from wearing kippah’s for a very long time, it’s only reasonable that the Muslim population gets treated equally. Schools should remain completely secular, I am in complete agreement with France there.
How people dress is none of the government’s business. This is just authoritarism.
Whoever people sleep or get married with is none of anyone’s business, but Muslims are against homosexuality.
nobody cares about your whattaboutism
Lmao. Great argument! Definitely the right step for France!
Definitely a better argument than “some Muslims don’t like gays, so we should stop French schoolgirls from wearing a specific kind of dress, that’ll teach 'em”
Well done mate, you and Macron have solved homophobia.
Some muslisms is a BIG under statement.
If you were afraid of going to the street and hold hands or kiss with a partner because you could be beaten or killed, you would understand, so yeah, im glad France took this decision.
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I’m gay and live in a heavily Muslim area, so stfu
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Stopping french school girls from wearing a specific dress does… what? To stop Muslim homophobia exactly?
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Christians also are anti gays, should we ban graphic tees as some sad, ineffectual petty revenge on them for homophobia?
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Okay edgelord
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Oh, so two wrongs do make a right now?
What wrong are homosexuals doing?
When did I say that we are doing something wrong? My point is that that just because many/some Muslims are homophobes, it doesn’t mean banning certain clothes is okay.
So what should we do against homophobic Muslims?
Wrong 1: Cultures and religions being bigoted against LGBT people.
Wrong 2: Banning all expression of those religions and cultures by anyone, even if they don’t believe in the bigotry.
Funny, I know Muslims who aren’t against gays but they still wear headscarves. Maybe it’s more complex than the Saudi policy line?
Also, are you saying authoritarian government is good if they only discriminate against people you don’t like? I guess that’s something an Auth would say…
Authorarian government is good when people are attacking minorities.
Muslisms dont want to accept homosexuality? Then ban them and make them go back to their countries. You want to stay? Its time to accept homosexuality in their religion. Simple.
Funny, I know Muslims who aren’t against gays but they still wear headscarves. Maybe it’s more complex than the Saudi policy line?
Funny, because you never see people with headscarves on the pride parades. There are thousands of them living in western Europe, but somehow they dissappear during pride parade. Funny, isn’t?
you never see people with headscarves on the pride parades
What does that even mean? That you yourself have never seen someone wearing a headscarf at pride? Personally, I think it’s a huge leap to take that and say no/very few Muslims in western Europe go to pride.
It wouldn’t matter even if that was true. Plenty of people support the LGBTQ+ community and don’t go to pride, same goes for many people who are part of the community.
Isn’t it curious how this argument is never applied to bigotry broadly. People always seem to be so on-board with banning Muslims from France for this reason or that, and always retreat into criticizing their beliefs, as if that were some consistent policy. But some hick in West Virginia doens’t accept gays? Why not call for banishing him from America?
Oh they are immigrants? Funny because plenty of muslims are born in France/America and have lived there their entire lives. And even the ones who haven’t - it’s called a fucking refugee. A good nation is one that takes someone in who is hurting, regardless of who they are and what they believe, and do their best to provide an environment that protects everyone and gives them a chance to learn accepting beliefs.
Notice how none of this shit has anything to do with headscarves btw… almost like there’s another agenda here…
It is tho. We need to erradicate homophobia from everywhere. You have to understand the background tho.
Yeah, all religion are against homosexuality, but christianity and catolicisism is at least trying to integrate homosexuality into the religion. There are gay fathers, churches have the rainbow flag, the pope (the head of the religion) just last week advocated for same sex couples. Is it perfect? No it is not, but at least there are some people in the religion trying.
What about muslim? No, they are not trying. Countries where muslism is the main religion have death penalty or life sentences for homosexuals. And the problem is that is not the main problem of the religion, for them to be able to accept homosexuality, they would first need to realize that they are misogynistics, and that is not happening any time soon.
It is the same thing white people vs mideast people. Are all white people queer friendly? Not they are not, but there are a lot more that support homosexuality. Are all mideast people homophobic? Not they are not, but I am probable to be beaten up by a mideast guy than by a white guy (in Europe).
Notice how none of this shit has anything to do with headscarves btw… almost like there’s another agenda here…
I agree it hasnt, but if mideast/muslim people keep being homophobic, then I am glad that the government is taking measurements to ban mideast/muslim cultural things like headscarves.
They want respect and inclusion? Then respect and be inclusive of others. It is this simple.
They banned crosses for Christians because they ban Muslim headwear. They had to do something for Christian or it would have been the most obvious racism.
Read the article. Crosses have been banned for a long time, before the Muslim headwear.
There’s an exception for the most common kind of religious expression for Christians. Small crosses are permitted. If you want to be fair, you need to ban them too.
Read the article. Crosses have been banned for a long time, before the Muslim headwear.
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Except abayas are basically just some loose-fitting clothes that can be worn by anyone regardless their religion. It’s like banning kimono or sari.
Even if one despises religion above all, as one should, there is no sufficient reason to ban this type of stuff.
On the other side, it is time to give these morons back what they have brought upon others and thus deserve.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Students will be banned from wearing abaya, a loose-fitting full-length robe worn by some Muslim women, in France’s state-run schools, the education minister has said.
“When you walk into a classroom, you shouldn’t be able to identify the pupils’ religion just by looking at them,” Education Minister Gabriel Attal told France’s TF1 TV, adding: “I have decided that the abaya could no longer be worn in schools.”
The garment has being increasingly worn in schools, leading to a political divide over them, with right-wing parties pushing for a ban while those on the left have voiced concerns for the rights of Muslim women and girls.
France has enforced a strict ban on religious signs at schools since the 19th Century, including Christian symbols such as large crosses, in an effort to curb any Catholic influence from public education.
The debate on Islamic symbols has intensified since a Chechen refugee beheaded teacher Samuel Paty, who had shown students caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed, near his school in a Paris suburb in 2020.
The announcement is the first major policy decision by Mr Attal, who was appointed France’s education minister by President Emmanuel Macron this summer at the age of 34.
The original article contains 388 words, the summary contains 199 words. Saved 49%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
I totally support that. https://www.indigo.ca/en-ca/little-hijabi-a-little-girls-love-for-her-hijab/9781504319508.html Kids wearing hijabs, abayas (put any religious symbol here) must be considered as a form of child abuse. It is crucial to refrain from imposing outdated and fantastical beliefs onto young minds.
The Abaya is cultural and not religious though.
So why is it mandatory for women in Quater and Saudi Arabia ?
Because their law requires it for “modesty reasons”, probably like a uniform of some sort, but it’s not a religious garment in Islam. It covers the whole body except the head, feet and hands. Anyone wearing an Abaya outside of Qatar and Saudi Arabia is doing so for cultural reasons, not religious reasons.
These kinds of laws should not oppress culture, unless we want to see an extinction of diversity. They should exist solely to limit religious child indoctrination, and give children a fighting chance to make their own decisions with regard to religion.
That’s exactly what this law is doing by banning religious sign into the public school. Pretenting that the introduction of this clothe, absolutely not present into the French culture, has nothing to do with the religion is fallacious.
Please don’t do this. The culture finds its foundation entirely within religious beliefs, and the abaya stands as a tangible expression of this connection. From the Wikipedia: “The rationale for the abaya is often attributed to the Quranic quote, “O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters, and the believing women, to cover themselves with a loose garment. They will thus be recognised and no harm will come to them” (Qur’an 33:59,[2] translated by Ahmed Ali). This quotation is often given as the argument for wearing the abaya.”
The cross is synonymous with Christianity, yet there’s an exception in this law for small crosses. If you want to go down this path, you must ban everything, with no exceptions.
So men are allowed to?
Noone is forcing them to wear them so I don’t see how there’d be a need to forbid them from wearing abayas.
Great so one side is telling women what they must do and the other side is telling women what they must not do.
One wants women to be part of society and have the opportunity to choose their own paths and the other will kill them if they dare to fall in love with someone not chosen by her parents.
Choose their own path by checks notes telling them what they can’t wear.
Yeah you basically just repeated your first argument. Good job.
It’s a good argument that you’ve failed to address adequately. Seems worth the repeating.
It’s not religious male clothing, so probably yeah.
France, overall, has become a terrible country.
My two cents, The ban is actually good. In school settings, religious headscarf/clothing makes you lot standout and people might get averse too it. This allows these people to actually mix in well with others.
The ban is good cause these kids are conditioned from birth to wear these. They haven’t explored things out of the religious context and how f* up religions are at controlling people.
We are landing on moon and we have religions claiming everything revolves around earth. I would outright ban all these cults.
I mean, wasn’t this the same government that was gassing it’s own citizens not too long ago because they were protesting for their rights?
I’m not surprised they are passing an idiotic ban like this so kudos for being even shittier I guess?
France has adopted laicite for years and frankly it’s the right thing for secularism. It doesn’t stop people worshiping whoever or whatever they like in their spare time, or wearing whatever religious garb they want. But not on government property including state schools.
Ok, what the fuck is going on with the women in that video? I’ve seen more realistic alien makeup on Star Trek TOS.
What’s wrong with your face?
I don’t see any bad makeup, it just looks like she used Vaseline as a moisturizer and used way too much because shes extremely shiny.
Wow. As a religious minority it’s incredibly depressing to see how many people on here support this violation of religious liberty.
Banning something is as opressive as making it mandatory.
No it’s not. making something mandatory for a group of people makes that group of people well separated from the rest. here is exactly opposite : they are trying to make them look like anyone else.
You know what makes everyone look alike? A niqab.
Someone call the Taliban and let them know they’re defenders of freedom.
LOL
Got em!
lol your argument is dumb sorry You know what else make everyone alike? Plastic surgery. Someone call surgeons
Plastic surgery does not make everyone look alike. That’s a silly thing to say lol
Also you’re missing the highly relevant point that plastic surgery is not compulsory
Well i made a silly argument to show you how I feel about yours lol.
Nobody is imposing a cloth on anyone, and even less a religious one. So you can’t use niqqab in your argument against me because that’s literally what i am against!
You could say for example that’s a cultural thing, and forbidding it would somehow restrict the minority. But then, it’s only public schools, the law doesn’t care (me neither) about adults wearing it outside. (I don’t know why I am arguing with myself on your behalf 🤔)
What it does care about, is to prevent community bubbles forming within groups of children. Which i totally support.
we’re just controlling what communities people are allowed to form. Nothing oppressive
Ok lol
We are controlling what communities ARE NOT allowed to form. Stop negating my points lol
this ban is as dumb as banning heavy metal, dungeons and dragons, skateboards, backwards baseball caps, etc etc
it’s all just trying to look tough enough to court right wing racists on targets too vulnerable to fight back.
if you want to protect vulnerable young girls, you don’t start by ostracising them from the community.
How is that ostracizing? Expand your word.
how is saying someone from a group of people can’t dress in attitudes that identifies them as a member of the group not ostracising? it’s the very definition.
Because “ostracizing” means “to exclude” someone. While imposing a common dress standard is to include everyone. so petty much the opposite of “ostracizing”
A common dress standard would be called a uniform. This law isn’t mandating uniforms, so you’re incorrect. It’s excluding religious groups, so yes, ostracizing.
Ostracising means to exclude. The law forces the blending. The mental gymnastics you need to find “exclusion” in that is buffing. Again it’s not excluding anyone, it tries to male them blend with the rest. Blend. Mix. Nobody is excluded. I never mentioned uniforms, neither the law, i don’t know why you bring that up. Yes, uniforms obviously make everyone uniform but we aren’t talking about it. Dressing regularly also make everyone look “regular” or “secular”, we don’t need uniforms.
If anything, the groups of people are literally excluding themselves by wearing stuff nobody else does.
Looks like at some point people are just repeating the same argument for everything and opposite of it.
“trying to make them” is a problematic phrase and why this doesn’t make sense. Nobody should be “made” to do anything, if people are choosing to look different they should be free to do so.
But they don’t choose tho. Parents do, but not kids
Nope. You aren’t allowed to have religious shit on you in general public in france.
Yeah and that’s fucked up and oppressive
No its the opposite.
Nah you just agree with the oppression
You’re like a Trump supporter in the US talking about “freedom” but then getting angry at trans people. Your side even uses the same arguments - “they don’t have the right to teach their children to be this way!”
It’s all oppression.
You’ll be in for quite the surprise when you learn how these fundamentalist muslims think about trans rights
Im pretty sure I can advocate for freedom for everyone everywhere and not run afoul of any hypocrisy, because I’m an adult capable of thinking.
Yeah you sure can advocate for people to be free to hate trans people and indoctrinate their children with it. You can sleep easy
This. The whole point of freedom is that every person gets to choose for themselves, and the government should be preserving that choice and limiting elements that take choice away. It’s morally reprehensible to support choice only when it’s choices that you agree with, that’s how state religions became a thing in the first place.
Religion likes to seep into the lives of people that don’t want it. That’s the problem. Religion is fucking up politics and lives around the world. Sure, if you want to be oppressed by sky dad and sky dad leaders, do it in private. I don’t want that religious toxicity anywhere near me. That includes the christo-fascist bastards in high places in the U.S.
You say “freedom of choice of religion” I say “you’re putting it in my fucking face and letting religion decide laws that directly affect my family and I.” Get that religious shit out of my fucking face. Sick of it.
Another commenter mentioned how similar some of the arguments are with far right anti-lgbt arguments are, and I don’t think there’s a better example of it than your comment. “I don’t want to ban it, I just hate it and don’t want to see it, so let’s ban it from anywhere I could run into it”. " ‘You say freedom to love you you want’ I say ‘You’re putting it in my fucking face and letting LGBT activists decide laws that directly affect my family and I’. Get that gay shit out of my face. Sick of it". Don’t you see how that type of rhetoric can be problematic?
I’m sorry, but you’re going to run into people in the world that do and say things you don’t agree with, that’s part of life. If you want to fight to keep it out of government and laws, I’ll be fighting right there with you, but once you extend it to people you’re just silencing and oppressing. Freedom is even more important when you don’t agree with the choices people are making, if you can’t agree with that then I don’t want to be anywhere near the “free” world you help build
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Hyperbolic bad faith argument. A person should have a right to choose the clothes they wear. Maybe this school should stick to uniforms if certain articles of clothing are so problematic.
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The French state literally making laws governing fashion is the most French thing ever.
No, it’s fascism.
I fully agree that’s it’s an authoritarian measure that needlessly targets a vulnerable minority.
But it’s also something we should laugh at the French state for. Orwell memorably mused that the reason the goose-step never made its way into British military marching drills - at a time when many other European armies were adopting it - was because if British civilians saw soldiers on parade goose-stepping down the road then they would laugh at them. He thought that instinct to laugh at pompous displays of authority was something that helped insulate the British from the fascist and communist totalitarianism that took root elsewhere in the first half of the 20th century. Fascists tend to have very thin skins.
The French state is making laws to regulate women’s fashion. They should know that doing this makes them look ridiculous to normal people.
