Oh no, my miserable life that’s devoid of any connection and anyone altogether otherwise *at least contains a friend.
What the fuck man, is this a real concern average people have that I’m way too fucking alienated to understand
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What the fuck man, is this a real concern average people have that I’m way too fucking alienated to understand
Yes it is a real concern. And honestly, I think leftists are terrible at giving dating advice, especially when it comes to men. There are some considerate leftists that actually give concrete advice (like start exercising, find clothes that fit better, maybe trim the beard so it looks nice, get a good haircut or shave it completely if balding, try to look people in the eye instead of looking down all the time, learn small talk, learn banter, learn how to express romantic interest, find that difference between confident and creepy and know when you’ve crossed it, etc.) Most of the “advice” I see is just “don’t be a r!pist!” and “don’t harass women!” Like bro that’s obvious, but to the guy that’s constantly getting rejected, especially when apps like Tinder make it so the a few super good looking guys pretty much clean house (and this dynamic absolutely spills over into offline interactions), there needs to be better advice.
When this advice is lacking, or people dismiss these young men because “there are so many other problems why would I care about MEN!”, this can lead to alienated young men finding their way into reactionary spaces. In this case a little prevention is worth ten tons of cure.
And lastly, I’ll say this, it’s completely disingenuous to remain “friends” with someone after you’ve been friendzoned if you initially had romantic feelings for them and those romantic feelings still persist. Unless your feelings magically also changed to platonic ones, then there’s a relational imbalance that will always linger. It’s better to just say “hey I like you in a more romantic way and even though you want to be friends, perhaps it’s better that we don’t hang out.”
it’s completely disingenuous to remain “friends” with someone after you’ve been friendzoned
Retort: no it’s not. Try being a normal person.
it’s completely disingenuous to remain “friends” with someone after you’ve been friendzoned
Retort: no it’s not. Try being a normal person.
Did you read the rest of the sentence, or the paragraph? Or are you just knee-jerk reacting to a part of what I said? Honest question.
Did you read the rest of the sentence, or the paragraph? Or are you just knee-jerk reacting to a part of what I said? Honest question.
It’s the latter, unfortunate part of hexbear’s culture being so focused on dunking. I’ve been flamed for comments that get widespread support a few weeks later. Whether or not most people disagree is entirely based on the vibes of the post for minor issues.
I’ve been flamed for comments that get widespread support a few weeks later.
Looks like that happened in this very thread lol. I see comments now that basically mirror what I said earlier in the thread’s history.
And lastly, I’ll say this, it’s completely disingenuous to remain “friends” with someone after you’ve been friendzoned if you initially had romantic feelings for them and those romantic feelings still persist. Unless your feelings magically also changed to platonic ones, then there’s a relational imbalance that will always linger. It’s better to just say “hey I like you in a more romantic way and even though you want to be friends, perhaps it’s better that we don’t hang out.”
Interesting, can you expand on this and why you shouldn’t be friends with someone you’re attracted to? Like, do you think ‘platonic’ and ‘romantic’ are binary conditions?
I’m not aaying you’re wrong but I’m interested in why you think it’s strictly disingenuous. I completely agree with the rest of what you said btw
Because if you continue hanging out with that person, the feelings will always remain. Like I said, maybe they somehow changed, but honestly, will a guy (this example is hetero-cis obv) who was initially attracted to a girl and then told “hey let’s just be friends” actually change his feelings? I mean they’re feelings because we kind of can’t control them. So the guy needs to be honest with himself and with the girl. Otherwise he’s basically staying in there to “try and get in” at a later time. That’s disingenuous. He’s better off spending his time trying with someone else. Maybe in that case he can remain friends with the girl since he has other options.
Interesting, can you expand on this and why you shouldn’t be friends with someone you’re attracted to? Like, do you think ‘platonic’ and ‘romantic’ are binary conditions?
Not strictly but they are more cut and dry then people like to think. And it seems to be perceived differently along gender lines (at least for straight cis relationships). Check out this video and look at the responses: https://youtu.be/T_lh5fR4DMA?feature=shared.
Now whether these responses are socially conditioned or somehow “innate” is a debate I leave to the scientists and sociologists, but there is obviously a perceived difference. I mean just look up “friend zone” standup routines on youtube or anywhere really, people talk about it all the time (https://youtube.com/shorts/zbjMJBixZI8?feature=shared and https://youtu.be/_KE6Y3VrMg4?feature=shared). The truth is that there are many dudes basically remaining in “friendships” disingenuously in order to get with the girl. This is not only disingenuous, but if the guy harbors resentment on being only considered “a friend” then it can lead to violent outbursts later in the “friendship.” So it’s not only bad for the guys involved, but can be potentially life-threatening for the women. So like I said, it’s better to admit how you feel and if you still have those feelings, it’s probably better to maybe be aquiantances at best, but not friends (unless your feelings have actually changed, which I think represents a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of those who get friendzoned).
I’ve remained friends with people I was attracted to and that the other person knew I was attracted to, and those friendships have lasted for many years. It is possible. You don’t speak for everyone.
You don’t speak for everyone.
I know, and I never claimed to. That’s great that it worked out for you, and I’m happy.
I in turn acknowledge that getting romantically rejected does hurt and that hurt is real.
I just don’t want that hurt to further worsen the dating pool and the systemic antagonism between (often cishet) men and women where the former get caught up in the “friendzone” concept and sometimes harbor rage against the latter, rage that often makes those women more likely to “friendzone” others because the alternatives can involve violence during a date that goes sour and all they’re trying to do is let the guy off easy, which yes isn’t really a friendship but also over times makes nonromantic friendships that much rarer between those groups.
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Finally an actual good comment.
To my fellow guys, there is nothing more pathetic than being an “orbiter” that stays friends with a women in the vague hope that they change their minds and want a romantic relationship with you. Everyone can tell it’s disingenuous. You know it, the woman knows it, her friends and your friends can tell. Trust me on this one. Either accept that she doesn’t see you that way if you want to remain friends, and if you can’t accept that, it’s best to put some distance between you and the person.
To my fellow guys, there is nothing more pathetic than being an “orbiter” that stays friends with a women in the vague hope that they change their minds and want a romantic relationship with you.
I agree with most of what you said, but I really don’t see why you couldn’t be friends with someone you had/have feelings for. You can keep stuff to yourself, and be okay with being friends. Obviously the crusher has to accept that going further isn’t going to happen. You can logically know something, and behave accordingly, even if your feelings are different.
You can logically know something, and behave accordingly, even if your feelings are different.
I think that may sound good in theory, but in practice emotions really fuck with us. So if one is trying to assess how to best proceed, there needs to be an honest accounting on the strength and frequency of these feelings. It’s almost like a calculated risk to be honest. You need to really know yourself. If you think you can do it then yeah good for you, but I think in our current environment it might just create more danger to the women because they may not know who is honestly trying to be friends and who is “just trying to get in” under the guise of friendship. Maybe this analogy isn’t that good, but it’s almost like job hunting, if you get rejected I suppose you can try to “follow up and keep trying” but it’s better to move on (and I fully acknowledge that dating isn’t transactional like a job but it still kind of is a “market” for lack of a better term).
I agree, it is difficult. And if the crushee didn’t want to keep being friends, I could understand that. I’m also not saying people should feel like they have to be friends if they don’t want to be, for whatever reason.
I think asking for a promotion would be a better analogy. You obviously (I say obviously but from what I’ve heard…) shouldn’t keep asking for a date or a job interview. But remaining friends isn’t nagging for a job interview. It’s hoping things can stay the same. I’ve not gotten promoted before, but I don’t think it’d be better to just quit. (as long as I can be okay in my current place).
You obviously (I say obviously but from what I’ve heard…) shouldn’t keep asking for a date or a job interview.
Actually that reminds me of something slightly related. It always seems like back in the day guys would ask a girl out like ten times before she finally said yes. I always hear stories from older couples like “he asked me out 20 times before I said yes and we’ve been happily married for 60 years!” But nowadays persistence is seen as being creepy in dating, although it’s kind of still promoted in sales, business, etc.
It always seems like back in the day guys would ask a girl out like ten times before she finally said yes. I always hear stories from older couples like “he asked me out 20 times before I said yes and we’ve been happily married for 60 years!”
If Pride and Prejudice, written in the 1800s, has anything to say about it, women back then found that pushy and obnoxious and sometimes gave into it but it wasn’t seen as a desirable method. Mr. Collins does that to Ms. Bennet and one of the most famous speeches in the book is her reply criticizing that “normal” approach.
“I do assure you, sir, that I have no pretensions whatever to that kind of elegance which consists in tormenting a respectable man. I would rather be paid the compliment of being believed sincere. I thank you again and again for the honour you have done me in your proposals, but to accept them is absolutely impossible. My feelings in every respect forbid it. Can I speak plainer? Do not consider me now as an elegant female, intending to plague you, but as a rational creature, speaking the truth from her heart.”
And lastly, I’ll say this, it’s completely disingenuous to remain “friends” with someone after you’ve been friendzoned if you initially had romantic feelings for them and those romantic feelings still persist
Disagree. It’s not hard to turn a crush into a squish. I know 2000s era TV made it seem like it’s impossible to be friends with someone you love without acting like a creep, but that’s just not true. Just have a little honesty. “I find you romantically attractive but I also value your friendship.”
Yeah people I’ve friendzoned have secretly introjected me and pursued a relationship with the introject in the past, but that’s called being a creep, it’s not called having feelings.
So I must be out of the loop here, what’s a squish? What’s introjecting? Never heard of those terms before
A squish is a persistent feeling of platonic attraction to someone. It’s the platonic equivalent of a crush. When I’m around someone I have a squish on, I’m excited and happy to be near them. With time and familiarity, these feelings usually fade and get replaced with platonic love, which is the foundation of a good friendship.
Introjection is when a system creates a member with an identity based on an external source. These sources are usually fictional characters, which results in system members called fictives, but there are also factives, which are members based on a factional source. I friendzoned someone I was dating and they accidentally introjected me some time after. They decided to keep the introject a secret and do romantic activities with it, which was very gross for me. Factive introjection can often be a problem with no easy answers, but the least that can be done is a little honesty.
A squish is a persistent feeling of platonic attraction to someone. It’s the platonic equivalent of a crush. When I’m around someone I have a squish on, I’m excited and happy to be near them. With time and familiarity, these feelings usually fade and get replaced with platonic love, which is the foundation of a good friendship.
Ah I see
Introjection is when a system creates a member with an identity based on an external source. These sources are usually fictional characters, which results in system members called fictives, but there are also factives, which are members based on a factional source.
Ok I’m completely lost here. I don’t know what a system is. And I take it factional source is a real source, as opposed to fiction?
A system is a brain with multiple people in it. And yeah, a factional source is one that actually exists. I wouldn’t say “real”, because I don’t identify as real and my introject was still a factive. There’s a difference between what exists and what’s real.
A system is a brain with multiple people in it.
So like multiple personality?
Dissociative Identity Disorder used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder, but it was renamed to focus on the symptoms that were actually harmful, because being plural isn’t a sickness. Plurality can also arise from other disorders such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and it can also arise naturally or as the result of deliberate or accidental efforts. It’s often linked with spiritual beliefs by people who experience it in a way which conflicts with normative reality’s narratives. Leonard Nimoy famously has a Spock in his head who he sometimes talks with, because of all the years he spent playing Spock on TV. The brain adapts.
It’s better to just say “hey I like you in a more romantic way and even though you want to be friends, perhaps it’s better that we don’t hang out.”
I guess I don’t have any experience from the"friendzoned" side, but this feels kinda manipulative? You’re basically giving them them an ultimatum to date you or cut off contact. I might just be sensitive or have completely different kind of relationship with my friends, but this would definitely burn bridges.
but this would definitely burn bridges.
I guess I should clarified that this is more of something you’d say in the beginning, not too long after meeting someone.
You’re basically giving them them an ultimatum to date you or cut off contact.
I mean I see it more as you know who you are and are setting boundaries for yourself. If the other person insists on being friends while knowing that you are into them, I see that as kind of manipulative, because you’re kind of pressuring the person with the feelings to make a decision to stay in an awkward situation.
At one time I thought I’d try my hand at being a “leftist dating advice” person, just given my perspective as being now over 40 and in a long term relationship. But I’ve since come to the opinion that all generic dating advice is mostly pointless. Trying to understand what you are doing wrong (or right) in dating is just too specific to each individual person, IMO. We all just have too many blind spots when it comes to ourselves. Not to mention so much of getting dating right is “be like this but don’t go too far in the other direction either”.
I spent so much time and energy in my single days trying to read up on dating advice and try to figure out what I was doing wrong. But ultimately what I was going wrong was a few things that were hyper-specific to myself, and generic dating advice wouldn’t mention that or if it did, I didn’t realize it applied to me.
I guess if I had any dating advice, it would be to ignore generic dating advice and try and have people in your life (friends, family, even exes) who know you well and will be brutally honest with you. And you have to be brutally honest with yourself, or otherwise you will never be able to internalize what other people tell you.
That, and being with someone is also a leftist, sympathetic to your political views, or at least apolitical but cool if you want to do praxis or occasionally rant about stuff like how capitalism evolved out of feudalism is pretty dang important.
That, and being with someone is also a leftist, sympathetic to your political views, or at least apolitical but cool if you want to do praxis or occasionally rant about stuff like how capitalism evolved out of feudalism is pretty dang important.
So I’m kind of torn on this, because of how I keep hearing about romantic relationships causing orgs to basically implode. It’s like there are so few leftists that when people meet in an org it becomes desperate people meeting other desperate people and basically forgetting the whole point of the org.
I guess if I had any dating advice, it would be to ignore generic dating advice and try and have people in your life (friends, family, even exes) who know you well and will be brutally honest with you.
I don’t know, in my experience they’ll never be brutally honest with you. Actually, they may not even know what to tell you in the first place and they may actually think that you’re “a catch” so to speak and “who wouldn’t want to date you!” I actually think hiring a dating coach might not be a bad idea, because they can assess you and actually give you good advice. And it would be specifically tailored to you.
Maybe a therapist? Not like, in an accusatory ‘you need therapy’ kind of way - I just mean they could fill much the same role as you describe a dating coach filling, while also helping you deal with some of the rejection sensitivity that is often at the root of dating anxiety.
I mean I guess, but… I hate to use this term, but I think the therapist is only going to give you “blue pill” advice like “be yourself” or other useless platitudes. Unless the therapist has themselves dealt with this and somehow conquered it, I highly doubt a therapist would help.
My current therapist encourages me to trip shrooms and explore Hegel because that is what works for me. If you find a good one then they will quickly realize the traditional line of advice isn’t what you’re looking for. That said, I’ve also seen my share of awful therapists so I understand your hesitancy.
a good therapist, on seeing a person come in and say “I’m troubled by this problem”, will see if the problem is fixable. If you’re super stressed because you’re working 60 hours a week, your therapist should say “stop working 60 hours a week, and here’s some techniques to ease the symptoms while you figure out how to stop doing that”.
Bad luck dating is only somewhat fixable, since you can’t control the minds of others. So a good therapist should push you to get better at dating if that’s what you want, but also help you to become happier being single. (Drifting off-topic, I think being happily single is a lot easier after you’ve dated a bit, and now have the self-confidence that comes from knowing you could get laid if you felt like it but don’t want to. Which may be one reason why single women are generally happier than single men. I hope this doesn’t come across as mean but I’m clocking you as a younger, relatively inexperienced dude?)
Yeah I guess in my head, I was thinking specifically outside of leftist orgs you’re involved in. Can be pretty problematic if you value at all the work the org does. Honestly I think relationships with folks who aren’t leftist can work well so long as they’re broadly sympathetic to your views.
And I also agree that it’s hard for even friends or people close to you to figure out your issues. Not to mention there’s plenty of folks who don’t have friends like that in their lives. I like the idea of a dating coach. Also, I think if you work on being radically honest with yourself, you might be able to help yourself some. Like with myself, I think deep down I knew my problem was actually taking those first steps and taking chances, but I never wanted to admit it to myself.
I like the idea of a dating coach.
That’s essentially what the PUAs from the 2000s were. It was only towards the end of the 2000s and the early 2010s that you started to see that stuff morph into the “manosphere” and “red pill” stuff you see today.
you think the pua’s of the 2000s weren’t misogynistic?
I’m sure there was some there but it was mostly just guys who had gotten rejected a lot trying to figure out how to be more confident, dress better, and learn how to talk to women. Later on people started to mix politics in with it (i.e. “women are only like this cuz of feminism, liberalism, etc.”)
it was always creepy from the get go, you familiar with Neil Strauss? you might benefit from hearing about his experience. like this is not good.
it’s completely disingenuous to remain “friends” with someone after you’ve been friendzoned
This kind of pre-emptive antagonism between people in the dating pool only makes it gradually more antagonistic over time.
It’s already rare enough for cishet men to have nonromantic friendships with cishet women; making it more antagonistic over time by normalizing fear and anger about “friendzoning” only makes that a little worse for everyone as time goes on.
I expanded on what I meant in the rest of the sentence (since you only quoted part of it and not the whole).
It’s already rare enough for cishet men to have nonromantic friendships with cishet women; making it more antagonistic over time by normalizing fear and anger about “friendzoning” only makes that a little worse for everyone as time goes on.
Yeah I agree that the fear and anger shouldn’t be normalized, but we should also normalize being open about our feelings and not suppressing them and remaining “friends” while still holding hope that it will become something more (which I also think can be super dangerous). I expanded on that in a reply to someone else if you wanna see it.
but we should also normalize being open about our feelings and not suppressing them
No arguments from me here.
remaining “friends”
This is still possible, and I have done it, no scare quotes needed.
while still holding hope that it will become something more
Now this is the toxic part that fucks it all up and makes the friendship impossible if it’s held that way.
It really is possible to be attracted to someone and accept that the other person isn’t attracted back and still be nonromantic friends. I have done it, and I still have those friendships many years later.
It really is possible to be attracted to someone and accept that the other person isn’t attracted back and still be nonromantic friends. I have done it, and I still have those friendships many years later.
So I think that there needs to be more advice on how to do this, as I’ve rarely encountered someone who’s successfully navigated it as you have. Maybe a separate post on how to do it? But anyways, should people want to pursue that option, I think it’s something that the individual needs to assess based on the strength of their feelings. If they are not emotionally ready for this kind of change (and from what I’ve seen a lot, maybe most, cis-straight men aren’t), then I think not seeing the person anymore might be the better option. Otherwise if they really want to try to make a friendship work (and actually try to be friends and not try to “get in” later) then I guess your advice would be helpful.
So I think that there needs to be more advice on how to do this
There’s an entire field of therapy and self-help that covers this, called radical acceptance. It isn’t something that can instantly be picked up as much as something that is practiced and improved upon. Accepting the reality that the other person is not romantically/sexually interested and accepting that one’s own romantic/sexual tensions will not be fulfilled to that person leads to a release of tension and the growth and flourishing of other positive emotional experiences that can then happen with that person. They won’t become romantic/sexual, and by that point, it won’t matter to you.
There’s entire libraries worth of books on the subject, and I assume a browse of the highest rated ones is a place to start. Therapists also offer basic training courses for how to observe one’s lived reality in the moment, how the body feels, how the mind feels, being instead of doing so to speak.
If it is too much for someone to be friends with someone after a romantic/sexual offer is turned down, so be it, but being honest and forward about how that feels is the best thing to do no matter what happens next. The worst choice is to try to remain “friends” while hoping for some kind of romantic/sex opportunity later.
As a bi enby I can’t even separate “wanting to be like someone” from “wanting to be with someone,” let alone clearly separating platonic, romantic, and sexual feelings. Like I just wanna hang out and do whatever we vibe with, and that could include sexy stuff or cuddly stuff or hobby stuff or deep conversations or whatever. I guess ideally I would try to see someone not being interested in sex as similar to them not being interested in going skydiving together, though there’s a lot of social conditioning that can make that difficult in practice. Generally though if I think somebody’s cool then I’m happy to be able to hang out with them in whatever capacity works.
Anyone who complains about the friendzone is an incel that doesn’t see women as anything other than objects to fuck
I can’t answer that because I’ve never been rejected by anyone. when you see my bodycount, you’ll be like, what is that? the username of the guy who makes the news megathreads?
Once upon a time I was scared of the friend zone until I realized that’s such a shitty thing to be afraid of. Like, oh no, you’re such good friends with someone they’re not willing to potentially damage your relationship with one another by pushing it further. The friend zone is a good thing. Enjoy platonic love, share that love and relish in it.
The “friend zone” is also harder than it seems
It’s hard as fuck to make new friends as an adult because so many are just trying to keep their head above water
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Friendship
I mean, if I’m romantically interested in someone and they say that they’re not romantically interested in me, that sucks.
Emotions are not rational. I can cognitively know “I am not entitled to this person’s romantic interest and having them in my life as a friend is just as valuable as being in a romantic relationship with them” but my emotions will still feel disappointed and saddened because my romantic feelings aren’t being reciprocated. Confessing your feelings to someone is also a huge moment of emotional vulnerability, and being rejected in that situation can make one feel powerless and inadequate.
Are you gonna tell me that if you confess your feelings to someone and they give you the whole “Let’s just be friends” response, your reaction is “Oh yay, I made a friend”?
I prefer friends, some people spend way too much time thinking having sex with eachother anyways. miss me with that shit
lets gooooI find attractive people attractive regardless of gender, but I have zero desire for sex and romance, only friendship
People say this, but let’s be honest the “friend zone” is something most people experience, it just go cringe to use because of the way incels use it. Having romantic feelings for someone while trying to have a plutonic relationship with them is a frustrating thing to navigate. The issue is people getting an immature victimhood complex about it. Also if it something you can’t handle, better off just avoiding the person and trying to move on. Hoping plutonic friendship leads to romantic love is usually a fools errand.
People say this, but let’s be honest the “friend zone” is something most people experience, it just go cringe to use because of the way incels use it. Having romantic feelings for someone while trying to have a plutonic relationship with them is a frustrating thing to navigate. The issue is people getting an immature victimhood complex about it.
Yeah the whole incel thing has really poisoned the well on a legitimate issue like this. It’s kind of funny how some leftists will talk about context when it comes to the faults of former AES states but on other issues (especially ones like this, i.e. dating) they completely ignore context and sound like your average lib. Oh well I guess we all have to continue to grow.
Also if it something you can’t handle, better off just avoiding the person and trying to move on. Hoping plutonic friendship leads to romantic love is usually a fools errand.
I mean it works out for some people I suppose (for ex UlyssessT in this thread) but yeah I think remaining friends while still holding out hope is disingenuous.
Yeah the whole incel thing has really poisoned the well on a legitimate issue like this.
I mean, I don’t think it’s a “legitimate issue” in the sense that it’s something society needs to deal it, it’s an interpersonal thing that sucks but that individuals need to deal with in the best way they can.
I mean, I don’t think it’s a “legitimate issue” in the sense that it’s something society needs to deal it, it’s an interpersonal thing that sucks but that individuals need to deal with in the best way they can.
I think it’s both. Just like any other issue that socialists talk about, like racism, sexism, classism, etc. They can all be “dealt with” on an interpersonal level, but ultimately there needs to be a societal change.
Just like any other issue that socialists talk about, like racism, sexism, classism, etc. They can all be “dealt with” on an interpersonal level, but ultimately there needs to be a societal change.
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
Maybe reverse the trend of turning dating into a commodified market for one. Apps like Tinder have really made looks be the sole factor in whether you even want to talk to someone. It’s become so gamified that we essentially treat potential partners as some kind of stock investment. Also the digital world has really isolated us and we rarely even talk to people anymore except through text or instagram. I think electronic communication is great (I mean here I am commenting on hexbear) but not at the expense of real life contact (hence the “touch grass” meme). Maybe have community centers that actually appeal to people? I dunno, perhaps we need to look at what the Soviets and other cultures do to help people meet each other (https://youtu.be/teZw4-trPuE?feature=shared).
I actually agree with most of the above while at the same time I see the “being friends with someone that is otherwise not romantically interested is bad/impossible” take as being the equivalent of throwing dirt into the rejection wound. Maybe a friendship is impossible for an individual but systemically assuming it is only makes the dating scene a little bit worse by making it more antagonistic.
Probably making it so boys and men have emotional support other than their partner or therapist and generally teaching them not to treat relationships as status signifiers or commodities. Unfortunately, that probably has to start young and we already have a bunch of shitty men floating around
relationships as status signifiers
ugh well put & good post.
One of the examples I remember is from r4r or one of the nerd dating spheres where someone wanted a partner who was smart, but not as smart as them. Obviously, they wanted her to smart enough to impress their friends (the ones who they constantly jockey for clout about intelligence with), but didn’t really want to respect her or feel intellectually threatened. Which also says a lot about what they think of their friends, let alone their prospective partner they were looking for.
teaching them not to treat relationships as status signifiers or commodities.
Well the problem is that relationships aren’t status signifiers. They are status, in the most concrete way possible.
Edit: Like it’s an old truism, that certain kinds of guys will deliberately pursue making money more than actually trying to build their social skills directly because it can open more doors for you socially & “romantically”.
Edit 2: What I’m getting at here is that “status” is an inherently social concept. It has to do with the people who you interact with on a day-to-day basis, & what you can expect from your interactions with them. In this sense, yes, somebody who doesn’t have a lot of friends or any romantic partners, is objectively socially inferior to somebody who does. They are, by definition, valued less by the the people around them & are less socially integrated, as a consequence of that. And that itself will usually be the consequence of the person in question possessing some quality that is considered inferior by the society they live in.
The whole issue I think is something that just isn’t really well addressed by any contemporary discussion on the matter, I think.
what societal change do you think needs to occur about this issue?
IMO, I think it’s worthwhile for society to take an active interest in helping integrate kids & young people who are lagging behind socially. There are programs that claim to try to do this today, but I didn’t really ever get any help, I just got told what to do & that I’d go in a windowless box if I didn’t do that.
If you get to be 30 & you’re still in that position, like I am idk how much there is that can be done, because a lot of the contributing factors to the issue have become ossified/terminal.
Socialization is very much a “rich get richer, poor get poorer” (if you’ll excuse the analogy) situation, in my experience.
I think remaining friends while still holding out hope
I agree here specifically because the “holding out hope” part is, both for the friendship and for the person maintaining that hope instead of accepting the friendship, or moving on without the friendship if they can’t, which is also preferable to “holding out hope.”
Accept the friendship if you can, earnestly work toward accepting the friendship if you’re not all the way there, or move on. Those are the best choices.
It depends how long the platonic relationship has been. If it only been a few weeks or even months if you don’t see each other often, moving over to a romantic relationship can go really well. If you’re trying to turn a years long platonic relationship into a romantic one, yeah in most cases that I’d a fools errand.
While I have indeed been 'friend zone’d, I’ve had more than three platonic friendships turn into romantic relationships in my lifetime, which is the majority of my actual relationships. Obviously don’t rely on it, maybe the key was that I went into all those friendships fully accepting that we might only ever be friends and that was fine.
Hoping plutonic friendship leads to romantic love is usually a fools errand.
I agree with everything you said, except this one here, every functioning long term relationship (and i mean decades long term) i saw in my life was evolved from this. Platonic friends are better at solving their problems in general, way better than people who came together cause they wanted to fuck each other.
And yet pretty much everyone I became platonic with I develop a crush on / slightly fall for if they remain cool.
?I have trouble telling between my crushes and squishes sometimes, so I just choose to label the feelings based on whether the two of us feel like getting naughty. If we’re not doing naughty stuff together then it’s a squish, and I choose to be happy to be spending platonic time with them
Dang I’m getting old wtf is a squish
It’s a persistent feeling of platonic attraction towards a person. The platonic equivalent of a crush.
Haven’t you ever had a friend that you were excited and happy to spend time with in the initial stages of the relationship? One who gave you butterflies in your stomach, but who you didn’t want to date?
Platonic crush
As I said, the “friend zone” as a concept is generally a cognitohazard. Having romantic interest turned down hurts, yes, but anticipating “friendzoning” and seeing it as some antagonistic experience that must result in a complete cutting off of the other person just raises the antagonism in the dating pool that much more.
It fucking sucks that so few cishet men are willing to try an actual nonromantic friendship with a cishet woman and I think normalizing the idea of “if no sex, then disappear” just makes that worse.
Growing up gay, I would have done anything if it meant the maximum consequence for confessing my feelings to someone who wasn’t interested was a “no”. Usually the best I could expect was a reaction so out the fucking wazoo, it’s as if I had shot their grandma to death in front of them. Worst case would be my brain becoming a plaything for a med student by next morning.
I’ve got a feeling that if I’d reacted the same way to a straight lady asking me out, society would suddenly become enlightened as to the proper way to behave.
It fucking sucks that so few cishet men are willing to try an actual nonromantic friendship with a cishet woman and I think normalizing the idea of “if no sex, then disappear” just makes that worse.
I didn’t consider this angle until now, but I don’t think forcing people’s emotions to conform to what you want is an effective or stable way to fight misogyny.
but I don’t think forcing people’s emotions to conform to what you want is an effective or stable way to fight misogyny
Neither is normalizing the idea of resenting the other person’s emotions that doesn’t mutually share in those emotions.
a plutonic relationship with them is a frustrating thing to navigate
well sure, in caves you need to really pay attention to stay safe. it’s not a good place for kissing
plutonic
What’s the word I’m looking for?
edit: whoops I forgot about the incel conception of it, that if you’re friendly to a woman she’ll put you in the “unfuckable” box. Anyone who has dated a friend knows that just isn’t true lol.
This is a struggle session tier controversial topic, but “friend zone” is what happens when
(a) you don’t want to date someone, but are afraid to reject them completely. A lot of people soften the blow by saying “oh we can still be friends”, in the lying polite way you’d say “we should hang out more!” before never following up on it. Especially prevalent among women, because men are dangerous, and especially prevalent when you don’t want to rock the boat in a friend group. It’s actually quite difficult to be friends with an ex or failed romantic prospect even if both people genuinely do want to be friends; you have to manage strong emotions without being able to directly change them.
(b) the rejected party either doesn’t understand or refuses to accept the rejection. Classically, this leads to men trying to “win over” women who don’t want them, and honestly probably don’t even want to be friends now that the dude is being weird about it, while thinly pretending to just be a good platonic friend. Let me get that door for you mlady.
It’s totally legit to want to date someone but not be “just friends” with them. It sucks to lose a friend that way, it’s happened to me, but we’re all adults here and sometimes people have enough friends already or don’t want to be friends with you badly enough to deal with any additional heartache from working through those emotions.
extreme horniness + emotional immaturity + unaddressed misogyny + a feeling of entitlement to sex + romantic rejection = upset about being “friendzoned”it happens to a lot of folks, and no doubt it hurts like hell, but once they see the ingredients, they realize the problem and they can choose to grow… or get worse.
Damn if all the romantic poets, pining away for unrequited love, simply realized they were only misogynists. Lol.
Byron has entered the chat
If the romantic poets were complaining bitterly about how they’ve been wronged by women because they don’t want to date them then yeah maybe they were
A lot of them definitely were lol
Quite a few entertainers and musicians in history were arguably misogynistic under a closer analysis and their fame doesn’t really excuse or justify that. “Lol.”
This zone thing is fortunately more of a younger person’s deal. Mid 40s, here - so not a problem.
For example, my very lovely former coworker just had a baby 2 months ago. I made (CW) BBQ for her and her husband and ran it over tonight to their house. I know how it is with having kids, and that first 6 months new parents don’t really leave the house. So I made dinner.
Anyhow, I’d be lying if I said I’m not attracted to her but we really are just friends. I have no idea how she feels about me, and I’m trying to find out since I’m married. We’re both married. Point is, I really don’t have many friends so I’m happy that she’s my friend and vice versa. Today was the best day because I did something nice for her and her dude with no strings attached.
Be happy someone is happy with you in their life on any level.
Yeah fr young people be like “I’m so angsty because I love my friends and desire a deep personal connection with them” that’s what friends are for you fools!
couplehood is the modern religion and by that awesomely glib take i mean: there is tremendous socialization to find purpose and meaning (and absolution) in “the special someone”, which has only seemed to heighten in the parts of society that want to stay on program while our institutions fail and the climate crisis looms. all that to say, i understand the desperation especially among the young. so much mass culture (TV, movies, music) tells them that the only thing they will ever do that matters is find someone who completes them (because of course they’re incomplete as they are!)… it’s a very efficient way to get everyone (single and not) out there consuming.
but of course, i agree completely with you, especially as i’ve gotten older. i value my friends and treasure making new ones in whatever context or however long it works out. i would rather have a new limited scope work friend to joke around with than a new ex- from a fraught relationship where at least one of us was not paying attention to the warnings of a bad match.
To maybe add a little. Alienation under capitalism is such that it forces all care to fall to the insular family unit and destroys other modes of material support. For instance, most help with housing, food, and care come from blood relationships. Especially from those lines that will support accumulation. Capitalism like the shit prion disease it is folds all into its like.
That being said, finding a friend is somewhat a luxury but finding family is to find a survival tool in this hellscape.
Also people really love to fuck. So finding out the person you’re trying to fuck doesn’t want to fuck you is kind of a bummer. Not to try and justify the toxic levels it goes to but it can be disappointing.
(because of course they’re incomplete as they are!)
Aren’t we though, isn’t that the whole point of having social solidarity with other people? If you don’t need anyone else, why would you ever care about the state of society?
Why wouldn’t you just be a Randian, then?
it is implying that the only way to have social solidarity is through a romantic relationship, when in reality, the way many people in the US practice romance is to let other social connections wither and make one other person their entire aocial support network.
contrary to the messaging of mass culture, the opposite of couplehood is not loneliness or solitude.
