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I was right in the edge of Gen Z and Millennial and grew up being the family’s tech kid. It still astounds me now that my younger sisters don’t know how to even look for solutions. They just get me. Having moved out I get texts and calls sometimes. I’ve had to explain that using a computer is a skill that is learnable. I didn’t learn by going to someone else. I had to learn how to learn. That’s the skill we should be teaching kids. Not how to solve the problems, but how to FIND the solution to problems.
I’m also between gen Z and millennial and was the family’s tech kid and still get calls. Are you me? :D
Just yesterday I got a call asking how to select all images in a directory… And then another call about how to get those images to Google Drive, which is literally just drag and drop… And one of the people involved was my gen Z younger sister.
the family’s tech kid and still get calls
I don’t know how you all get calls. I have literally never been called to fix a computer. People prefer to pay some random guy at Walmart who will scam them, instead of calling me and getting free help. And I’m not a troll, not an asshole, or an incel, I’m a regular guy, I’m friendly, but people don’t seem to care, they prefer paying for useless help.
Of course my family members call me. It’s the only way they get the tech support I used to offer in-house. :D
As someone also near the border between Gen Z and Millennial, I relate a lot to this comment. I was also the family tech kid, and since like middle school I’ve always told people “I’m not good with computers, I just know how to use a search engine”
My “computer literacy” is literally just basic research skills; knowing how to formulate a web search and how to identify bad sources.
But if you are good at using search engine, you are good with computers
On this subject, my personal definition for millennial is someone in the age bracket where they had to teach themselves how to use windows as a kid
It’s the issue that is the most baffling to me. Learning how to search properly can be done in 10 minutes but no one does it.
If I want a recipe for a burger with onions, I’ll search for “recipe burger with onions.” When people around me search for the same recipe, they would type “I’m hungry and I’d like stuff with onions and shit” and instead of getting one of the billion web sites with recipes, they would stumble upon a weird blog about an anorexic girl who is obsessed with onions, and think that the internet contain no recipes at all.
Right! This is why I say it has more to do with being stubborn than being smart. If you’re determined to find a solution and you’re half decent at research and following instructions, you can figure a lot out, but people treat it like you invented the thing with some magical knowledge that they could never possess.
You’ve just articulated a feeling I’ve had most of my life, but couldn’t have described better.
Solving trivial problems for people they could easily do themselves if they just muddled through the work of it. Then act like I’m a genius, when it’s really just ‘stubbornness’ and refusing to admit i can’t figure it out.
Thanks for that.
The late 90s Gen Z/Millennial DMZ is a painful place to exist. Constant and mandatory tech support.
The ones that is blamed for the ills of society by both the baby boomers and younger gen zs
Yep. I was born 1998. To Millennials, I’m a tiny baby Gen Z, to Gen Zs, I may as well be a boomer. It’s odd.
Growing up poor confuses things even more, because I have more in common with people born late 80s/early 90s than with people born only a few years after me. My first game console was a SNES and we had a VCR until we got a PS2, and kept using it well after.
Hah, are we the same person? My family was poor too. I’m a bit younger (born 2000) but I grew up using a VCR, and my first console was a GBA where I played a lot of SNES ports. The internet has existed my entire life, but I still remember before smartphones were a thing. It’s a really weird place to be socially. I don’t connect with Gen Z culture in almost any way, but I’m also distinctly not a millennial.
Interestingly my older sister (1998) who has zero interest in anything tech is actually pretty tech savvy for how little she cares about it. I think she crossed that threshold of learning how to learn, where even when she comes across something she doesn’t understand she knows how to approach the problem.
95 here. Started with the original GameBoy and an old Macintosh in the basement. My first computer was a POS gateway with the cow logo and 128MB of RAM. Finished up high school with the Xbox 360 and an iPhone. I’m a retrogrouch to Gen Z and some kind of hacker to most Millenials. My GF (same age) and I jokingly call ourselves “MillenialZ” (with an obnoxious accentuated zzzzzz at the end) because we don’t quite fit in with either generation.
I love it. I think that should be the official title for our mini generation.
Growing up poor confuses things even more
Yeah this is why generations aren’t actually a good metric. I might as well be from another planet lol
Same boat here, though a couple years later. It feels really weird to be so out of the loop with my “fellow” Gen Z siblings who were born in the late 00s.
Teach a child to fish, basically.
If we keep making it easy for them… Ask and I’ll give you all the answers… They’ll never learn.
My first response these days is, “What have you tried so far?” And, “What are you searching for in ‘Google’?”
I also ask “what have you tried so far” mostly because too many times I get into troubleshooting and then discover that they’ve created a new problem while doing their own troubleshooting. (Like one time they plugged in a second cable between two switches - good god was that hard to troubleshoot remotely)
I think we can blame the education system. At some point it became solely about passing some arbitrary threshold of students with high exam scores rather than about teaching students how to get by in life.
End result was an education system that simply teaches kids how to pass exams rather than basic life skills like critical thinking.
I also blame the education system, the fact that my computer teacher thought that opening R, trying to reconnect to WiFi, and opening the cmd prompt were all attempts at “hacking” is sad. The fact our robotics class shut down when the exchange student left, because he was the only who knew how to program was sadder.
Part of the problem is the people making the standards don’t even know how ignorant they are themselves. Like I at least recognize I have a lot learning to go, and lean heavily on people more experienced than me in fields I’m not the expert.
No one knows how to use computers! Computers dont even know how to use computers! It’s all made up anyways 😅
This is what I tell people when they get frustrated learning how computers work. Its not like math or natural science, it’s all just useful levels of bullshit people made up to make the electric rocks do things. Learn what helps you understand how the rocks work to make it think about the things you care about.
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I’m going to go a bit further and say that kids today are not worse than in the past. It’s been 20 years since I taught computers but the doom and gloom here could have easily been posted in 2002 with only minor rewording.
GUIs got good with the launch of the Mac in 1984, and by the launch of XP & Mac OS X in ‘01 good GUIs were cheap. This brought computers into way more homes and exposed them both to kids who liked them for their own sake and to kids who saw them primarily as a tool.
I think people like this handwringing about kids not understanding computers on a deep enough level for their taste are just being obtuse.
I write software now instead of teaching and I write the kind of software that people should be able to just use as a tool.
We’ve had 20 years where the vast majority of computer users understand latin better than they understand their computers. It’s fine. It’ll continue to be fine.
Every one learns something for the first time. Expert to noob all start in the same state of knowing nothing.
I’m seeing this with my oldest niece and nephew. They’re okay with navigating their android tablets; but if you ask either them of troubleshoot a problem on the PC, they both just end up coming to me. Neither of them know how to research solutions either. Ugh.
Wow, what a bitter man, he wrote it as spitefully as he could. I wonder what is he so bitter about
Tech support calls that amount to wiping someone’s ass for them. I was helping someone setup their new computer and they managed to install spyware while I was using the restroom. Another time, ransomware got onto to someone’s computer and I instructed them to unplug the computer while I made my way over. They plugged in their only backup of office files into the infected computer and all that data also got encrypted.
Im a 6th semester software engineer student, back in first semester I had classmates that didn’t even know how to zip a folder
Ive worked with a few people that had completed CS degrees that couldnt do basic troubleshooting. One of them still works for my old employer and ive been informed that hes still as bad as the first day they hired him!
He was there to learn, right? Is a first semester student expected to know specific programs without explanation?
Zipping a folder is on of the most basic features of any os. It’s weird that he was so unfamiliar with computers and decided to get into compsci
It’s what happens when everyone says it’s a moneymaker. Most of them transfer out of the program after first year
Zipping a folder has 0 to do with compsci in the first place. Unless it’s a course on compression.
Zipping a folder is more basic than installing a software on Windows. It is in right click menu since eons, and most files on internet are shared as ZIP/RAR/7Z/TGZ files, in that order of popularity.
I disagree. You should study computer sciences because you’re a geek and want to know more. Knowing how to right-click and select “Create ZIP from directory” is the most basic feature ever. When I started my compsci courses, I had friends who already knew C++ or were compiling their own kernel of this brand new thing called “Linux.”
So you should only major in things you already know?
Any decent compsci program starts out assuming the student knows nothing.
Besides computer science is about math, not actually interacting with a specific os.
I love how everyone is acting like this is a new thing. People have never been able to use computers.
This article looks like it is seriously a decade or older at this point. The writer goes on about how phones can’t be upgraded or repaired and go obsolete in two years but also buys a macbook pro.
Much of the article is some boomer going on about how they had no computers and they know computers better than people who do have computers. But I bet you this guy doesn’t know how to make laundry detergent but they rely on it all the time. Bet you need manufactur-dad to the fucking rescue for you eh?
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They know how to use computers much better than when I was a kid. Ultimately I feel we fixate on every kid knowing computers at some enthusiast level for no reason.
Life is often about being just good enough to get by and we don’t fixate on kids knowing other parts of their lives. Cars are a great example because most people take their car into a tire shop instead of doing it themselves. Most people buy food instead of growing or butchering it themselves.
Ultimately I feel we fixate on every kid knowing computers at some enthusiast level for no reason.
Calling a level of knowledge “enthusiast” is super subjective and I think the author is arguing that bar should be higher. Being able to “use” a computer (IMO and the author’s) should include things like connecting it to a network, reading error messages, following basic instructions, and knowing what basic hardware components do.
Cars are a great example because most people take their car into a tire shop instead of doing it themselves.
Drivers should know how to deal with a flat and check their oil. A lot of people don’t, but they should.
Most people buy food instead of growing or butchering it themselves.
People should know how to cook a decent meal from ingredients. A lot of people don’t, but they should.
All the users that say shit like “make it work” for tools they use every day of their lives are under-educated IMO and should want to learn more about those tools and develop their skills further to make their daily lives easier. I don’t really get why people don’t.
I agree with all of your reasoning here that people should be more knowledgeable about what they use and rely on.
Being able to “use” a computer (IMO and the author’s) should include things like connecting it to a network, reading error messages, following basic instructions, and knowing what basic hardware components do
I guess maybe I come from a perspective on computers that this is ultimately optimistic and not real. Connecting to a network can mean so many things depending on the network involved and in some instances needs you to know your MAC address. While on Android now you can share wifi network credentials with a QR code now.
Yes, I want people to be more knowledgeable but I don’t know how to make sure people are. People come out of more than a decade of education thinking the world is flat and that capitalism breeds innovation. (For clarity I believe that capitalism only breeds innovation in extracting profit and the world is an oblate spheroid.)
You’re an oblate spheroid!
heh heh heh
I feel like he addresses this quite well in the conclusion. In regards to cars, “this is not a new phenomenon” and admits to his reliance on salesmen and mechanics.
Ultimately, he’s asking that the people who make decisions about how our world is shaped have some knowledge about the things that are going to shape the world. And that essential issue is still unaddressed. Remind me, how many years ago was it that US Congress was asking Google why the bad articles show up when you search their name?
Oh, and our car-centric society in the US largely sucks. That may or may not have anything to do with our general understanding of a motor, but maybe it’s worth considering how much thought has really gone into the implications of these massively affecting technologies.
You’re not likely to educate people on a torque converter just like you’re not likely to educate people on subnet masking.
I was showing an intern how to install a software the intern needed. The computer setup was a laptop with two external monitors. After we installed the software from one of the external monitors, the intern asked “so will this install the software in the other screen?” I was flabbergasted.
I mean… Technically it would.
Maybe he thought it was an all in one device.
Can be generalized to “nobody understands science and technology anymore”. I can understand those who went offline and are not looking back.
was teaching my 3yo mouse and keyboard this week, and he had some difficulty because he is already accustomed to touchscreen. to be fair, toddlers touch everything, its intuitive. regardless, he was pointing and clicking like a pro after afer minutes.
now, when to introduce the cli…?3.5!
No kids myself, but I saw something really interesting at a restaurant the other day. Kid, maybe 3, was watching something on an iPad. When it was time to go, the parents asked “it’s time to go, can you pause your movie?”
Kid taps the screen to bring up the menu, and taps pause. No problem.
I found it really interesting that that UI paradigm is maybe 10-15 years old, and it really isn’t super intuitive, but it’s universal, and this little kid knew how to do it. And it looked like his parents taught him how to do it and encouraged him to do it.
So it isn’t all hopeless, it’s just a matter of parents teaching kids how to use computers. Just like they teach them to eat, brush their teeth, and dress themselves.
Time to hand over a rusty ThinkPad and USB with Ubuntu on it. By 5, he will teach you Arch!
Start with the sl command, and you can do it now 😁
I’d wait until the “yank the key from keyboard and eat it” bug is fixed.
The Ubuntu Touch reference was a real throwback…
I don’t care if most people are clueless around computers, it makes me feel smart.
I was a “Nintendo Switch Engineer” for figuring out over the phone that the AC adapter wasn’t plugged in, which is why the TV wasn’t displaying from the dock to the screen.
- Dump on
tl;drs - Subject your readers to a minimally-edited 4000 word rant
You get to pick one.
The people who are them problem aren’t the intended audience. The intended audience are people who are in positions to direct youth education programs.
The tldr is usually called “the lead” in newspaper articles and it tells you roughly what’s it’s about so you know if you want to read the damn thing or not.
It’s spelled “lede” I think.
Both are acceptable.
- Dump on
There seems to be a lack of good basic computer science education unfortunately. Schools and so on never caught up with the speed of technological advance. And back when I was in school, teachers taught things like “How do I use formulas in MS Excel” in computer science. It’s probably still that way, so it’s not neutral at all, instead you’re learning how to use specific software products (often, Microsoft’s). So relying on school education alone may be hopeless. But you can always learn for yourself or from others.
Man, I didn’t realize that article was written in 2013, it could’ve been written today, and it still would’ve been true. I think one of the biggest contributions to the tech illiteracy of people is, 1. Schools don’t really teach you about that kind of stuff (in my experience, or unless you take a special course) and 2. Everything is basically done for you now, its incredibly easy to do anything basic on computers.
Teaching direct tech through schools is problematic too because by the time they update the cirriculum the reality had changed. Concepts and diagnositcs would be a lot more useful, then let the kids have the tools to find the issues from there
So when the author says it’s the 30-50 year olds that know how to use computers, today it’s the 40-60 year olds. I’d say it goes older than that.
One thing that used to bug me on reddit was youngsters going on about how over-50s wouldn’t know how to use a computer. That hasn’t been the case for decades now.
Hear hear! We 40-50+ year old geeks were learning the Internet as it rolled out. Before that we were upgrading our PCs and modems as funds permitted, joining & running BBS’s on DOS. OS/2 seemed futuristic and I ran it for a while, but Linux won my heart. As a teenager, I had my favourite kernel hackers, tested their patches, chatted with them on IRC. Before that, we had our C64s, Amiga 500s and similar. We had the greatest opportunity to learn, and we loved it.
Over the last 10 years I’ve really had to dumb down my interview questions, covering a wider range of topics until I (hopefully) find a spark of passion and beyond-user-level knowledge about anything (even unrelated to the position)… it used to be easier.
I feel like getting into opensource software is easier than it ever was at least, the biggest Barrie’s I see are people thinking they can’t and advertising making people defensive about sticking to proprietary options.
It’s actually the 8-80 year olds that don’t know how to use computers.
Most people don’t know. They just know how to use a handful of programs. But the vast majority of them don’t understand the basic concepts behind them. Things like files and directories are nebulous at best.
Does it matter? A little, because so much stuff revolves around computers nowadays. Which means that they don’t really understand the world they’re navigating daily. OTOH, they live perfectly well as they are, so it clearly doesn’t matter to them.
We’re going to end up like that society in Star Trek that worships a computer.
But… The Computer is our friend!
It’s like understanding how a car works. Some people know what every sound is. Some people can’t even grasp what oil is.
I still remember getting in trouble at my public school with the IT admin because my friends and I discovered how to write BAT files, and had the brilliant idea to create a bunch of fork bombs that self-replicated until they froze their host computer.
Unfortunately I think kids today don’t even get enough leeway to figure that sort of shit out. But kids are awfully good at finding cracks in systems, so maybe they’ve just figured out how to get up to similar hijinks with GUIs and cloud storage.
🤓🤓
