I often daydream about how society would be if we were not forced by society to pigeon hole ourselves into a specialized career for maximizing the profits of capitalists, and sell most of our time for it.
The idea of creating an entire identity for you around your “career” and only specializing in one thing would be ridiculous in another universe. Humans have so much natural potential for breadth, but that is just not compatible with capitalism.
This is evident with how most people develop “hobbies” outside of work, like wood working, gardening, electronics, music, etc. This idea of separating “hobbies” and the thing we do most of our lives (work) is ridiculous.
Here’s how my world could be different if I owned my time and dedicated it to the benefit of my own and my community instead of capitalists:
- more reading, learning and excusing knowledge with others.
- learn more handy work, like plumbing and wood working. I love customizing my own home!
- more gardening
- participate in the transportation system (picking up shifts to drive a bus for example)
- become a tour guide for my city
- cook and bake for my neighbors
- academic research
- open source software (and non-software) contributions
- pick up shifts at a café and make coffee, tea and smoothies for people
- pick up shifts to clean up public spaces, such as parks or my own neighborhood
- participate in more than one “professions”. I studied one type of engineering but work in a completely different engineering. This already proves I can do both, so why not do both and others?
Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day. It’s unnatural. But somehow we revolve our whole livelihood around if.
Im fortunate. I love my career. I’ve been doing since I was 12 what I do for a living now at 39. I’d still do what I do if income were a non-issue.
With that being said, I’d probably only do it three days/week or so, being able to pick a more realistic balance between productivity and burnout would be great. I’d also spend that time making something I want, for me, rather than doing what I’m told. I feel like that’s significant here as well.
There’s a couple of countries without capitalism, you could try to live your dream there.
ask the Soviet union how easy it is to decouple from global capitalism
Not sure what your point is, there wasn’t much trade between US and the West until about 80s. Soviets certainly could end all trade with evil capitalists, if they wanted.
Countries like Iran or North Korea even have the luxury of capitalists themselves decoupling from them.
There are countries striving to break away from capitalism, but I don’t think we’re quite there yet.
Make art and hike more.
Id play more guitar and more piano, and record more. Id take pictures hiking and take videos and stuff. I’d fully automate the mundane from my life, finish my self hosting projects.
I’d be healthier, overall. By a lot. Mentally and physically.
Produce documentaries, develop a video game
I would love to do those too!
If that’s capitalist society didn’t exist you’d spend your time hunting, gathering, farming band generally ensuring you had food on the table. You wouldn’t have time or energy to do those other things you dream of. And nor would anyone else.
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No, I’d spend my time doing more or less what I said in my original post. Humanity has long moved past the reliance on hunting-gathering 200,000 years ago during the agricultural revolution (hint: it was far before capitalism). Technology today allows us to produce all humanity’s needs with the fraction of the labor we do now, or the labor we did in the past. None of this would go away if society oriented itself around its own needs and wants instead of capital.
Counterpoint, capitalism has existed for only a few hundred years and yet hunter gatherer societies by and large faded out a few thousand years ago. I’m not saying there’s a magic bullet solution here and/or we should revert to feudalism. But you didn’t make the point you thought you were making.
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Let’s not be confused here. Specialization is what allows for free time. If everyone has to farm and hunt, that’s all you’d do. Specialization is a good thing for humanity and diverse institutions and industries to arise.
heres what wikipedia has to say:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_labour
historically it seems to have been beneficial… and led us to where we are currently.Not everyone has to farm and hunt. It was more than 200,000 years ago that humanity figured out how not to get all of us to farm and hunt, way before capitalism ever was a thing.
Speicalization in the context I used does not mean “be an expert at a thing”. It means “Spend most of your time doing just that one thing”. I can see why you were confused, I think my use of “pigeon-holed” was probably better than specializetion.
But the same result would occur in socialism. Even communism. I don’t know what you expect to happen in any societal economic structure that would suddenly give you the freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want. Jobs existed the same way all the way back then as they do now. And that was the birth of capitalism, not before it. Most didn’t own their land. It belonged to a king or emperor. Sure there are exceptions and caveats, but to say capitalism didn’t exist back then isn’t accurate. Capitalism isn’t bad. It’s how it’s implemented that makes it awful. I think we need to migrate to socialism via capitalism. But it requires winning of the minds of the populace and that won’t happen until folks have an accurate understanding of both capitalism and whatever system you want them to transition to. I don’t even know what system you’re supporting with your question. It sounds like you’re trying to describe some sort of star trek utopia that supposedly is advanced beyond economic systems (yet how many episodes revolved around trade deals between planets and races… but I digress).
Jobs existed the same way all the way back then as they do now.
Are you arguing that ancient societies had “jobs”, and in the same way that we do nowadays? I don’t intend to be rude (and sorry if I come off that way), but a simple Google search will tell you that’s false, but I’d be glad to cite you exact resources as well.
And that was the birth of capitalism
While the exact beginning of capitalism may be a subject of a little debate, no expert on the matter believes it goes that far back. Again, simple Google search reveals it, and I’ll be glad to cite you resources if you want.
Most didn’t own their land. It belonged to a king or emperor.
This wasn’t always true. There was a time that preceded class society. And not all class society is capitalism.
but to say capitalism didn’t exist back then isn’t accurate.
It is the scientific consensus that it did not.
I think we need to migrate to socialism via capitalism
Not sure what you mean here. Can you please elaborate?
whatever system you want them to transition to
It is simple. Instead of orienting society around profits and capital, we orient it around bettering the human condition. Instead of working our days to generate more profit for capitalists in exchange for money to buy necessities, we work to serve our interests and our own communities. So much wasted labor is suddenly removed.
Specialization has always been a thing. Probably more so before. A carpenter wouldn’t just wake up and “nah, I’d rather work with pottery today”. The carpenter probably became a carpenter because their parents passed on their carpentering skills to them, so that’s what they do until they die.
I think you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that maybe my use of specialization is incorrect here.
Hi Mr Smith, another loaf of your god awful bread please.
Money was invented before written history began.[1][2] Consequently, any story of how money first developed is mostly based on conjecture and logical inference.
We don’t actually know when money started so it’s hard to say.
But even before money the person with more stuff could acquire more stuff through barter. Even if they weren’t using money it’s still basically capitalism.
Barter being the predecessor of money is actually false, and has never been supported with sufficient evidence.
From what anthropology tells us, money was introduced by force, not by a natural tendency for humans to barter, and wanting a better way to do it.
And no, that isn’t “basically capitalism”. No “capital” involved here in the sense of capitalism.
Yes we do, money started around temple societies in the fertile crescent to control people and keep them centrally located.
Also, there is no known historical example of a purely barter economy. What’s known now is everything tended to work on an informal gift/reputation economy.
Until money came along, was typically forced upon people, and then if the money system failed, people fell back to a barter system. Neither money or barter are natural for the vast majority of human time and society
The invention of currency basically just introduced universal fungibility to a communities barter system by adding 1 additional step.
It’s a good step. You need something else to trade if the guy that raises chickens needs medicine and the pharmacist doesn’t want chicken products.
actually, hunter-gatherer communities ‘work’ significantly less time than we do in our corporate jobs. farming is a different story: here’s one study: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190520115646.htm
I remember reading in The Mating Mind that since hunter gatherer societies long ago had more leisure time, they could spend it socializing, and growing their brain.
You can read that study and see that it only represents one instance where hunter gathers were more efficient than farmers in the same region. You cant use that to say to our current system is less efficient. I hate pop science so much its unreal.
It’s also pretty evident that we could not sustain the current population on preindustrial farming let alone hunter gathering.
reminds me of this project https://farm.bot/ .
but a project like this is so slow or nonexistant development ( i would argue: this is because we put all our hope and time into specialization.) this is only maintained by a few people. it doesn’t compete or compare with the size and scale of modern industrial farms so nobody really cares and its not deemed to be important.i suppose thats a good thing. its not worthwhile to persue agriculture anymore. food is cheap.
i’m more worried about paying my landlord.How about this then?
https://www.ft.com/content/dd71dc3-4566-48e0-a1d9-3e8bd2b3f60f
Yup. Hunter gatherers has a lot of free time. Honestly, I think it was pretty swell, except for lack of medical ability perhaps.
That would then mean we would have to support the entire food supply on hunting rather than farming for this to be true, so basically 90% of the population would have to die
Are you thinking that OP is proposing we go back to hunting? I can guarantee that is not what was meant here.
He basically is, he states that I hunter gathering societies that much less work was done, but significantly more in farming societies as a response to another poster saying specialization and careers are a significant contributor to the free time we do have. If he’s not suggesting a hunting society is better I don’t know what the point of his comment is.
They also have sky high infant mortality rates
Is it because they work less, or is it possibly because our technology, sanitary practices, medical expertise and ability to treat diseases based on thousands of years of trials far exceeds there?
I bet it’s because they worked less.
Yeah, OPs got the spirit but misses the point. We are being pressured to sell our time at a minimum of 40 hours every week. It’s thanks to specialization (and the technology that developed from it) that this quantity of of time is grossly over-allocated. Trade and travel allowed people to create better products in less time, so people were no longer very literally working to live, day-in, day-out. Unfortunately wages are kept low, wealth is kept centralized and culture continues to place value on excess so that we’re continually convinced that we “have” to work as many hours as we can find.
I don’t understand what you think I missed. When I said “specialization”, I meant the idea of just doing one thing and one thing only as a “career”. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t specialize or that people won’t. But if I specialize in construction labor, with the extra time awarded to me I could also participate in design if I wanted.
Yes, but if we only have to work on our specializations for 16 hours a week each instead of 40+, we would have a lot more time for other good stuff, whether it’s personal development, supporting other specialists, or just hanging out.
i’ve worked for 20h/w and 40h/w. i think 30/32 is a good balance
People are entitled to their preferences. They should also be entitled to overtime after some amount of hours per week that’s lower than forty, I think whatever it takes to bring the rate of unemployment to practically zero.
Think about if you had a flat tire in your car. You go to get another tire to replace the one with a hole in it.
But the tire factory only manufactures 300 tires a day. Because they only have a handful of employees who feel like making tires and they only really want to work around 10 hours a week.
Now tires are pretty rare. And that means they are difficult to find. Also, rarity is a supply and demand thing, so now tires are also incredibly expensive. People want a lot of them, but the tire manufacturing plant doesn’t make enough.
Oh, and while you were inside the shop being surprised at the 22 month wait for your replacement tire, and the $3,500 price tag for just the single tire, the other 3 tires were stolen off your car in the parking lot.
Cause people don’t want to pay those prices, or wait that amount of time, which has lead to a massive car tire black market
First of all, I will start with saying that this is a highly unlikely scenario, because modern technology already allows us way way more tires that we need with a fraction of the labor time we put. But let us assume not and entertain this a bit.
This is a perfect example where members of society will find themselves in a situation where there is a big need for tires that is not being met. Instead of hand wavingly complaining and hoping the government or corporations ramp up production, we remember we don’t live under capitalism anymore. We are masters of our own destiny! society is now oriented around human need and wants, not profits! Our prime motivation for working is not to please capitalists in exchange for earning enough to live and a little more. It is to serve the interests of ourselves and our communities, and this is a prime example of a need of ourselves and communities.
So because we are unhappy with the state of tires, we decide to contribute more of the large amount of free time we have to produce more tires (and you only need a tiny fraction of humanity to do this. Consider how many people work in the tire industry right now). The fluidity afforded to us by having both free time and the control over production is a lot greater than you think. We do not even have to imagine this. Many historical civilizations did this already. We can only do better because technology grants us a million times the ability they had to produce.
Historical civilizations were not producing tires or any goods for that matter at industrial scales, so that comparison is useless. If you think that the only reason profit motives exist today is to “please capitalists”, you need to do some more reading into how the industrial economy works.
We only got to producing more advanced things like tires because of how technology made things so much easier to produce with a fraction of the labor time. This is a continuing trend in history.
And yes I do think that society is oriented around profits (and pleasing capitalists, which happens by producing profits. I find it ironic that you chose this truism to argue against lmao). I hope you don’t expect a response to that second part, because it is not argument and not worth responding to.
People would use public transport a lot more. Resulting in much better infrastructure.
World War II is a working example of your hypothetical. The country (USA*) had to ration food, shoes, metal, paper, and rubber - so therefore even tires - to name a few. This all happened under capitalism. The country complied and to even make up for the loss of product women joined the workforce - i.e. Rosie the Riveter. I’m not trying to get into an argument but I wanted to point out your example already came and went and the country responded as it would under either economic system.
Why do we need tire factories working employees 40+ hours a week to make enough tires for everyone? Just hire enough workers so that they all have enough time for a life outside of work. Maybe with a little bit of central planning, we could also reduce the demand for tires by figuring out how to get people to drive less.
You do understand what an analogy used for the purpose of illustrating a point is, right?
What is it with people and being literal to the point of making a conversation painful?
I could explain all of your questions for you, but it takes a lot of groundwork laying that you should have probably picked up on your own by now, and at least a little bit from the education system.
Is all they teach you in school how great Karl Marx is? Did you learn how businesses operate? Assets, liabilities, profit margins, overhead, OSHA, etc?
C-level executives usually set an operational budget per business department. There is a labour budget included in that. It’s a managers duty to use that budget to fill out the labour needs of the business, based on sales and sales forecasts and any other upcoming business changes.
It’s not really as easy as ‘just hire everyone who walks in the door and don’t enforce any attendance policies, if they want to work they’ll show up. Sure, some days we will have more than we need, and other days we won’t have enough, but if the communities needs more tires, I’m sure they’ll just come in and do the right thing.’
Seriously, have you ever had to depend on someone doing their job before? I’m guessing not.
Anyway, we aren’t really talking about societies need for tires, we are talking about capitalism
You do understand what an analogy used for the purpose of illustrating a point is, right?
Yes, we all get that. Not sure what you gain from saying that. It good mental exercise to accept the modifications people make to your anology. Otherwise, we’re not “thinking together”.
It is the prerogative of the “C-level executives” to maximize the rate of exploitation on behalf of the bourgeoisie. When the working class eventually takes power from the bourgeoisie, that prerogative becomes obsolete (and so do those parasitic executives). Instead of utilizing improvements in productivity to increase the wealth going to the bourgeoisie, they can instead be used to improve the well-being of the working class.
So, if it turns out that we really need more tires, or whatever fits your analogy, then we’ll just make more tires. However, the wealth that would have been syphoned off to the idle owner class and their lackeys will instead stay under the control of the workers. Therefore, as the revolution progresses, the workers will gain more and more time, energy, and opportunity for individual and communal fulfillment.
Omg, bro don’t spout this communist manifesto shit at me please!
And to the second part “then we’ll just make more tires” is where the devil is in the details. How is that organized? How is that, more importantly, enforced?
You can’t just “bourgeoisie” and the. “We’ll just make more” and skirt off into the sunset. How will we, how exactly will we, make more tires?
Like really dive in here, because this is where the rubber meets the road. How do we ‘just make more’? Where do the workers come from? How do they know we even need to make more tires? Who tells them? And what happens if …. No one shows up to make any more tires?
What if everyone is too busy hiking, or learning a new language, or doing art or writing great novels to make more tires?
If you really want to dive in then just go and read Capital. Otherwise, the short and sweet of it is that it would really be up to the workers. The particular solutions will probably vary depending on the industry, location, the status of the revolution and whatnot, but it might involve combinations of time banks, computer AIs, human engineers just doing the math, and/or even some forms of markets and price signals.
This is quite an in depth solution to sortof what you’re talking about
https://www.thevenusproject.com/
It really only covers making sure people are fed, housed and watered. Personally I think cars are a pain in the arse, I’d rather run or cycle everywhere, but then that’s not everybody. If you really liked them, and you were fed, housed and watered, you’d definitely have time to look at building or contributing to building one, assuming people don’t tell you to fuck off because it’s a noisy, smelly death trap…
Unfortunately, the likelihood would be that a lot of people couldn’t handle being in the same kind of housing as everyone else, because they believe they’re special. But logically this makes much more sense that what we’re currently doing. Capitalism is extremely wasteful.
And before you say, well you’d never get people to agree to this. I think the tankies/fascists have solutions to that problem, you’re just encouraging them…
There’s no efficiency while we’re supporting a welfare class of bourgeoisie.
Wish I could upvote this 10x
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I get three days off a week and just got off of a 3 week long vacation and I slept a bunch lol. Played videogames. If I could never work again I’d just relax and enjoy food and entertainment.
Imma be honest I have no idea. I might legit just sit here and be a leech on society playing video games and watching shows. But I’d like to imagine I would go back to school and try and do freelance repair/maintenance for various things. I just honestly don’t know if I’d do enough to consider it a fair contribution to society.
You can do this right now, OP. If you don’t like living in a society just fuck off into the wilderness and do you. There are enormous swaths of land in this world where nobody will ever bother you. What’s stopping you?
Antibiotics I guess
Did you read my post? Where did I say that I don’t like living in a society? I said the exact opposite.
Shit is peak lemmy right here. I see this shit everywhere. “I like hotdogs”, “why the fuck do you hate hamburgers you twat?!”…“uh…I didn’t say that?”
So far I’ve seen a lot less of that on Lemmy than other social media. Then again, I’ve been pretty good about blocking people who bring nothing more to the table than just logical fallacies, and the community here is quite a bit smaller than what I’m used to, so scrubbing out just a few morons actually makes an impact here!
You asked what we’d do if we weren’t forced to sell most of our time. I suggested a way you wouldn’t have to sell any of your time. So seriously, what’s stopping you? Is it that you want the benefits of the labor of others without contributing up to your own potential?
Is it that you want the benefits of the labor of others without contributing up to your own potential?
What, you mean like CEOs and landords?
Not at all. Nothing is stopping OP from opting out. And nothing is stopping OP from having hobbies and interests now. The obvious subtext of their question is that OP wants to fuck off and do whatever, as long as it’s easy. They won’t leave because they’d have to work to survive. Which explains pretty much everything about why they don’t have hobbies now and it’s someone else’s fault.
Actually they won’t leave because in the wilderness, if you fall and break your leg, you die, because there isn’t a hospital nearby to get to. You’re being obtusely reductionist.
“If you don’t want to contribute in the ways I define as contributing, then go live in the wilderness where you’ll most assuredly die of exposure” is not the grand argument you think it is.
I have cancer, I didn’t choose it. I literally cannot live without modern medicine. But sure, I can make the choice now to fuck off into the wilderness to pursue my hobbies while dying a horrible painful death. You’re being willfully obtuse.
So you’re saying OPs life is massively easier in their current capitalist society? 😂🤣😂
Any society offers the same trappings, you fucking nonce. Capitalism doesn’t have ownership of modern living standards.
Or are all the roads in China made of dirt and everyone is wearing rags? Last I checked, China is where half our fucking microchips come from.
“oh you dont wanna sell your time? why not just die right there right? surely you would not have to sell your time then!!”
This is how stupid you sound. And if you read the rest of my post, I will repeat this again, I was talking about how I wish to live in a better society, not outside of society and in the woods. dont project.
That’s literally how societies work. You can do everything yourself, or you can cooperate with other people. Cooperating means spending some of your time doing their stuff so they spend some of their time doing your stuff. Cooperating means giving up some free time but probably having more free time overall.
As is, you can have hobbies and interests now. Society isn’t stopping you from that either. You need to realize that your happiness is your responsibility instead of projecting onto the rest of us.
A “not stupid” version of your question might have been “what would you like to spend more time doing.” But that’s not the question you asked. You decide to blame society for you being kind of a pathetic person.
You can do everything yourself, or you can cooperate with other people.
Please reread their post. That is what they want, but are unable to do because of capitalism.
Capitalism does not encourage cooperation. It encourages competition and domination. Competition between businesses and individuals, and domination of the working class by the state and capital.
The work one has to do under capitalism, i.e. wage labour, is not simply “cooperation”. That would entail an agreement between equals. It is a coercive arrangement enforced by the state in which people must submit to the whims of an employer or else risk joining the ranks of the unemployed, or worse, the homeless, the presence of which is a necessity under capitalism as both a sobering reminder of what’s at stake, and also to ensure there are always more people to employ.
You can - to a degree - choose who you work for, but to no extent can you choose whether you work.
You can - to a degree - choose who you work for, but to no extent can you choose whether you work.
That’s literally how life and any society works. Let’s rewind all the way to the beginning. If OP doesn’t like working in a society they can fuck off to the wilderness. But! Frontier survival would actually be more work and danger and less free time. Or, OP can move. But it turns out Western societies generally have shorter work weeks than the rest of the world. So what’s OP left with? Misplaced angst and the glaring unwillingness to take control of their own life.
That’s literally how life and any society works.
No, it’s really not. Not every society forces you to seek wage labour. This is only the case in capitalism.
Let’s rewind all the way to the beginning. If OP doesn’t like working in a society they can fuck off to the wilderness.
No, they can’t. The government would hunt them down. But again, it’s not society in general they’re against. It’s capitalism. It’s stunning that you conflate the two.
But! Frontier survival would actually be more work and danger and less free time.
Okay but they weren’t gonna do that. Nor is it the only way to not have to do wage labour.
We could instead transition our economy to one that operates on the basis of need instead of profit. Then people can choose how they work, without it defining their life:
For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.
- Karl Marx, The German Ideology
Or, OP can move.
Are you really stating this as a genuine option?! Do you know how fucking expensive that is??
But it turns out Western societies generally have shorter work weeks than the rest of the world.
The “rest of the world” predominantly includes other capitalist societies. Ones which the West forcibly made so, and made subservient, forcing down their wages and strongarming them into supplying us with cheap labour and goods. Not the best point you could have made.
So what’s OP left with?
Agitating for class consciousness and solidarity with fellow workers
Misplaced angst and the glaring unwillingness to take control of their own life.
Why is it misplaced? Also, it’s quite clear they are more than willing to take control of their life, but have obstacles in the way.
That’s literally how societies work.
There are many ways that societies can work. Criticising the way society currently works is not criticising all possible societies. The options are not “accept things the way they are” and “bugger off into the wilderness”.
What’s a society that isn’t premised on cooperation? Capitalism, communism, and essentially every other form of society are simply differences in how the money is divided up. They’re not differences in the belief that members of society have to work.
The options are not “accept things the way they are” and “bugger off into the wilderness”.
I mean, OP can move to a different society. OP could also stay and vote but I suspect that type of cooperative government might not be what they’re after. So yeah, in general, acceptance and fucking off are the only two real, immediate, choices OP can make. And in the context of this thread, asking OP this question is a great way to get to the point of their complaint.
What’s a society that isn’t premised on cooperation?
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Because nowhere has anyone said they oppose cooperation.
Capitalism, communism, and essentially every other form of society are simply differences in how the money is divided up.
Boy howdy that seems like an ENORMOUS difference.
Y’all check out the post history of this troll, absolute gold mine.
Where is all this free real estate you’re talking of.
Pretty much the entirety of Central Asia, Australia, and everything in the US and Canada from the longitude of the Mississippi River through the west side of the Rockies. It took the US government five years to find Eric Rudolf and he was in a reasonably populated area and they were looking for him.
Of all the dumb things you’ve said, this is the dumbest. I bet serious money you’ve never lived in any of these areas, and just because less people live there doesn’t mean no one would notice you setting up a farmstead on their property and either call the sheriff or enforce their rights themselves.
Not to mention the government wanting their taxes or permits and throwing you in jail once they got wind of anything. Homeless people get assaulted, their belongings destroyed, And their lives ruined every single day in even tiny towns in the Midwest. You’re not escaping society there, it’s very conformist. This has big high school libertarian energy
Humans do not like the same thing over and over every day.
Speak for yourself, I like routine and being rewarded for working hard.
Do you really get rewarded for working hard? Every time I’ve gone above and beyond for my job it becomes and expectation with no increase in pay. There is no reward for us “no skill” jobs that somehow are the very foundation of this god forsaken societal system we uphold.
I’ve left jobs when I don’t get rewarded for hard work. Thankfully we live in a free market that allows me to also freely choose my employer and occupation.
freely choose my employer and occupation.
As long as you meet the dozens of credentials to work for a place, as well as the 5 to 10 hidden ones they don’t tell you about in the job listing or the interview.
That sounds salty.
Are you denying it’s reality?
No, I’m skeptical because it sounds more like disillusionment.
You don’t think that companies have dozens of credentials and requirements for a job? And hidden ones as well? This is very well documented. The first one is easily verified by looking at indeed.com. I take it you’ve never applied for a job before?
Credentials exist for a reason.
Jesus Christ this post sucks
I’m sorry that a harmless question on askLemmy bothers you so much :(
luke’s poor feefees. :(
If only we had a voting system to express whether we thought a post meaningfully contributed or not!
.
spoiler
sadfasfasdfsa
Starve to death.
I don’t understand why these people think they’d have All this free time.
If there wasn’t an industry to sell us all the things we buy, people wouldn’t just volunteer to do it.
You’d be spending all your time learning how to hunt, fighting with your neighbours over territory, waging war over it likely, and dressing your kills to help feed your family.
Your wives would probably be busy trying to avoid being raped by your enemies while you’re out trying to bring home dinner and making clothes out of threads.
People think there would be starbuck’s to just walk into and start making coffees for people? Just some random dude who thinks ‘Hm, today I’m going to go and make coffees for people for a couple hours’ is this guy seriously okay?
Lemmy users do not understand why things are the way they are. They’re …. Childish. Child-like.
It’s almost like they imagine the government will be just like their parents and fund their lifestyle like they did when they were actually children.
Take them to swimming lessons, sign them up for art classes, dinner just magically appears on the dinner table everyday, they can spend all day just hanging out with friends and playing video games or whatever they want to do.
I think lemmy users, for the most part, are stuck having a crisis of changing from childhood to adult hood.
They’ll likely grow out of it, but boy is reading shit like this fucking embarrassing to adults
Here’s a hint, lemmy communists:
Without capitalism, you’ll do what the government decides you will do, for however long they decide you should do it for. If you’ve been farming wheat for 3 years and the government decides there’s too much wheat and not enough apples, you’ll be picking fucking apples for 16 hours a day, without sunscreen or water or breaks.
Or you’ll be shot and your family will be put in prison.
Without capitalism, you’ll do what the government decides you will do, for however long they decide you should do it for.
While the government leaders will live in big mansions free to do whatever they want.
This is exactly my thoughts on this. OP feels he’s going to just ‘pick up shifts’ as he feels like it. Nope, it doesn’t work like that. It’s total fantasy, and you’re description is on the money of how it really would be.
“Wow I just really feel like being a garbage man today!” … said no one ever.
exactly
So many words to say that you have a first-grade understanding of what an alternative to capitalism might look like
We have seen many alternatives to capitalism. They are all much much worse than capitalism.
You act as if humanity just popped into existence and started capitalism 200,000 years ago lmfo
Without capitalism, we would be serving our own interests, not the interests of a minority ruling class, be it a capitalist class or one disguised by a state.
Capitalism gives you the BEST chance to make a living doing what interests you. If you don’t like working for others, open a business and own capital. It’s literally the rules of the game.
It does not. I spoke a bit in my post about why it doesn’t. Owning a business is a bit better, but you’re still operating at the whims of capital, having to do what the market deems a good investment rather than what’s good for society. You also have to make sure not to ever compete with or upset a mega conglomerate with infinite money. You also still have to live with the fact that most of the rest of society is forced to live under this for profit system, which locks their potential.
I would spend my time the same way. Honing my specialization to increase benefit to society. I love software development!
I run a goth night once every other month.
I visit friends quite often whenever I want to.
I get up and start my day when I feel like it.
I play with code and build web toys.
I’m a freelance IT guy. I could, if I wanted to, earn a lot more than I do, but my time is worth more than money. It is possible to do, even in this world where everyone is told that you need a ‘career’ and to work for a company, although a lot more work is needed to freeing other careers from the obligation of the grind.
Don’t give up hope, unionise, demand respect,buy a guillotine,and keep an eye out for a way to get what you need and to contribute to society or your community without signing your life away.(Yes, some people will never get the opportunity. And that, frankly, pisses me off no end. But don’t lose hope until you’re dead.)
Your a freelance IT guy and you are suggesting to unionize? Your the guy companies use when they don’t want unions.
I don’t work for big companies, I support small businesses where a full-time IT guy doesn’t make sense, and old people who are struggling to get their internet working because their internet explorer icon disappeared. Additionally, if I was contacted by a company to cover them whilst their employees are striking, I’d turn them down.
I would offer people money to work for me.
And then i would help them optimize their brainspace to be more efficient at helping me.
I would allow them to use my workshop to create things that benefit the community. Like tools and Labor.
I would keep watch over the water and electrical lines and repair and service them if needed.
I would train people to do that for me and pay them.In a society oriented to our own interest and the interests of our community, no one would do work for you for money, especially since money would cease to exist.
In a society like you described money would be created. First as bartering and then eventually a form of money will start to exist.
The anthropology on the origins of money have shown that this is false. Money was introduced by force, and barter only occured in societies that previously had money then lost it (so, money-oriented societies). It is a myth that money creates itself. I’d love to refer you to resources if you’re interested on reading further (I have to dig them up from my notes).
There would not even be a need to create money. If your needs are already met, why would you still engage in exchanging already-abundant resources? Why would I give up my carrots to get your apples, when I can just go and pick some apples from the apple storage or a grocery store?
Because i would take all the apples. And the carrots. And if you wanted some you would have to barter with me. If you didn’t, then you would not have all your needs met.
Because people are not intrinsic good.
If you fail to take that into account then your idea is flawed.You really think an entire society revolved around bettering the human condition wouldn’t have guard rails against some random self destructive idiot going rogue?
In general though, no one has the motive to do that (except a self destructive idiot, who we’d just put in rehab and hope they get better).
Also you probably lack the means to take all the apples. The world already produces more than double the amount we consume. I guarantee you have no capacity to take them all.
I’m sorry, I know you thought that was really smart of you, but it’s not a good look.
my neighborhood has multiples of me. we are now a group.
Yeah sure. We cannot take all the apples out of cincinatti. But i can take all the apples from my town. Especially if i convice other people that are powerhungry like me. Narcisism and sociopathy exist, never forget that.
And on what grounds would you put me in rehab? Because i did what makes me feel good?
I take care of all the stuff nobody wants to do.
I clean the drains, i upkeep all the things you use for leisure.
People are lazy and would rather barter with me than to overthrow me. If they did, someone would have to wade through the shit all day.Kings and Queens did not have a real reason why they should be in power. They created their own reasons and used all their ressources to keep everyone down.
You surely have the Hollywood infested brain lmao
And on what grounds would you put me in rehab?
What about having terroristic aspirations? LOL. Trust me, no society will ever depend on you. You’ll always remain disposable
