I am currently using Linux Mint (after a long stint of using MX Linux) after learning it handles Nvidia graphics cards flawlessly, which I am grateful for. Whatever grief I have given Ubuntu in the past, I take it back because when they make something work, it is solid.
Anyways, like most distros these days, Flatpaks show up alongside native packages in the package manager / app store. I used to have a bias towards getting the natively packed version, but these days, I am choosing Flatpaks, precisely because I know they will be the latest version.
This includes Blender, Cura, Prusaslicer, and just now QBittorrent. I know this is probably dumb, but I choose the version based on which has the nicer icon.
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My experience with Flatpaks has been so stable and hassle-free that it motivated me to switch to Fedora Silverblue.
Hell yes! Feeling futuristic.
Probably never. They’re my third option after native packages and built-from-source packages/installs either manually or using the AUR. They’re convenient and the only option I tolerate of those newer package styles (Flatpak/Snap/AppImage), but seemingly having to download a new 800+MB runtime for small 32MB applications is ridiculously wasteful and I wouldn’t touch them if I didn’t have at least a TB of storage.
That is a fair take. The universal package systems seem to disregard space outright, which is unfortunate.
I use Gentoo so when I want to try a package that has a butt ton of dependencies or other fun things I give it a whirl via flatpak if available. It’s super nice, not gonna lie, and I see the use case of immutable distros. I think they are neat.
That is actually pretty cool. I know about portage, but I think it defeats the point of gentoo. Compiling from source is the point, right? That way the user gets all the speed benefits and optimization for their particular hardware.
Flatpaks are a great preview to see if the compiling is worth the time! Or a permanent solution for some software. I am happy that people don’t seem to have qualms about mixing software managers.
The point of Gentoo is it’s configurability. Gentoo has binary packages in it’s main repo’s and even an experimental binhost for precompiled packages. Forcing one to use any one thing is against the Gentoo philosophy.
That makes sense. Thank you for clarifying my misconception. I think I will set that up. I have a couple of Dell Optiplexes that are bumming it out right now. I can put one to work with Gentoo.
Gentoo is pretty rad but be prepared for the compile times and to fail a few times (it’s a learning experience!). You could even speed things up by setting up Distcc on a beefy rig to build stuff for your optiplexes.
Okay, that seems cool. I had not considered that a possibility. It would be fun to “stream” any compilations to the Optiplexes.
Also one of the use cases for flatpaks I forgot to mention was for proprietary software like Steam, Spotify, and Discord. It makes installing those a breeze.
That is probably the most important use case. It is good not to allow proprietary software to extend their tendrils beyond the sandbox.
100%. I just wrote a long post surmising this somewhere, but I’m switching my 5 year old Arch install to something like Debian Stable/Testing because I use almost entirely Flatpaks for my user applications (I would do 100% of them if every app I used had a Flatpak), and it’s really just a much better idea to run bleeding edge on only the stuff you care about instead of an entire system.
If you find it please link it. I would love to read it. I think I am happy with my setup, and Flatpaks make it possible.
For sure. I think I rolling distros are great, and I may consider it in the future. Right now Linux Mint is amazingly solid for me, and has evaporated any interest for experimentation, because I have had literally 0 problems, and it magically takes care of my Nvidia card.
I hope you find the distro you are looking for!
I personally run Debian in Testing and I have not the latest version but I think it’s still fine.
Unless they come up with something else that is not “Windowsfying” Linux with one-click installs… then nah, no thanks.
Yeah, it seems like all this convergence of convenience is muddying the linux waters… then again it has never been that clean.
If you can’t see the possibilities behind automated tasks that you have no control in… then I’m afraid to say that talking to a nearby wall will be more fruitful than (even trying to) start a convo with you right now.
I admit to only having naive user knowledge of flatpaks being an alternative. I am learning a lot today, which is why I asked.
As far as my comment goes, I was thinking about the fuss over systemD, but that is an entirely separate problem I am probably also not equipped to converse about either.
I bet your wall gets a lot of attention.
When using Fedora Silverblue, there is no other option, which I do!
But there are other options with Silverblue.
It’s the preferred option for gui programs.
That doesn’t mean it is the only option.
Same. But I started using flatpaks for everything I could prior to moving so it was easy.
Are there any other distros that are flatpak-only?
Thanks
What about the packages that are not available in flatpak? I assume there must be some packages that are only available in certain corners of the internet?
Yeah, that’s what I mean. You can use flatpak (or snap if you swing that way) but you can also install applications via containers. They’re still not installed on the OS-- even “native” applications get installed via the container. So if the application you want is maintained for arch in aur, you can add the --aur tag to the apx command and it will install that version instead of the default, which is ubuntu. This also works for fedora applications.
Edit: More info here: https://handbook.vanillaos.org/2023/01/11/install-and-manage-applications.html
That sounds cool. Thanks for the recommendation.
Doesn’t that result in a lot of wasted space from duplicated dependencies? Don’t get me wrong, this looks great on paper, which is why I desperately need to find fault with it before I start distrohopping again.
Flatpaks aren’t the only option in Silverblue: you can also layer packages using ‘rpm-ostree’ (requires a reboot though), and you can also use toolbx (or even better, distrobox) to create an easy-to-use container that you can do anything with. With distrobox you can install an app inside of a fedora/ubuntu/arch/other container, and then use a simple terminal command to expose that app to your host system as if it was installed natively.
I’m on Silverblue and I have mostly flatpaks plus a handful of layered packages as my base system. Then I have a couple of distrobox ubuntu containers for software development (lots of libraries and build tools), music production (with Yabridge and Wine). Because the base system is immutable I’ve never had a problem that prevented my computer from booting, and if I ever do, it’s extremely easy to roll back to before the last update. I’ve had a couple of issues working with containers in the past, but not big ones, and much of that comes down to my own user error.
I definitely recommend Silverblue for anyone who wants a rock solid, practically unbreakable Linux system.
That is actually awesome. It sound like the Fedora aliens (?) but probably more reliable. Cool. Adding VanillaOS that to the list potential new OS that makes computing easy and fun.
OpenSUSE Aeon (MicroOS Desktop)
9/10 desktop applications I use are flatpaks. Am on Arch and even when there’s an AUR for a package I’d prefer to use Flatpak. Just so I can use Flatseal to control permissions access on my applications.
Love it! I am starting to feel good about this then.
I like containerization for server applications, especially when running different services on one box. For desktop use, native libraries are stable and usually the applications being used are single instance. I don’t see a point in running desktop apps in containers.
No doubt the benefits of technology on a server benefits the desktop user to some degree?
Containerization does add complexity in its assembly, but simplifies things for the system overall, which I think is appealing.
Still, that is just another abstraction away from the machine.
I haven’t used any flatpacks, mostly because they don’t seem to have a good solution for running terminal programs. (Also I don’t like that the application developer chooses the permissions to expose rather than the user.
However, I have been using bubblewrap which is what flatpack uses under the hood to sandbox. This allows me to run both gui and non-gui programs, and I have the control of exposing the minimum required permissions that I’m comfortable giving an untrusted piece of software.
I will be honest and reveal my naivete about the permissions. I don’t really mess with permission for any program, but I can see how some defaults may be bad.
I will look into bubble wrap, since the sandboxing is important, but the sheer convenience and availability of software is what is appealing.
recently rebased from fedora to debian, and reinstalling apps through flathub was ridiculously easy because all the settings and data were preserved in /home. also flatpaks incorporate newer mesa than what comes with debian stable, so it’s an easy way to stick with a stable distro but also be up-to-date in userspace.
Nope, don’t like them. Nor snaps. I find the sandbox nature annoying and many developers don’t actually seem to understand it correctly anyway meaning you have to use flatseal etc. Then having to deal with some apps writing config within the sandbox and some writing it outside the sandbox…
My order of preference is generally I pick the “official” supported version as opposed to any community maintained ones. Then within that:
- Install via the language’s package manager (cargo, npm, pipx, cabal etc.)
- Appimage
- Native package (.deb, .rpm etc.)
- Plain binary
- Build from source
- Snap
- Flatpak
Out of interest why do you favour snap over flatpak?
I’ve just had fewer issues with snaps. Honestly I don’t care for either of them so the difference between them for me is pretty slim but I just find Flatpak to be particularly annoying, Snaps just haven’t caused me any real issues other than polluting my device list with endless loop devices.
I handle it by spinning up an lxd container to try new apps… then they have the whole machine to do what they like, and if the install doesn’t work or I hate the app, just delete the entire container.
lemmy was one of the harder ones to deal with because it needs docker… I have a special profile that runs docker in a container for apps like that (I never run docker bare, it f…s around with the firewalling and breaks stuff).
True. I have run into a lot of dumb issues with sandboxing, mostly in choosing a folder other than downloads for file interaction.
I have overlooked Appimage, and I will consider it. I am intrigued that you put it before native package. I had not considered using the package manager of the language it is built in, which honestly is probably the optimal way to install a package.
Alright, I have some reading to do. I love learning new ways to do things. I am glad I asked!
There is a bit more nuance to it I suppose - I like Appimages for “complicated” apps, i.e. big GUI apps like Inkscape where I prefer native packages for terminal tools. The nice thing about Appimages is that there just isn’t much in the way of integration and therefore its really easy to just try something out with no risk of installing a bunch of extra dependencies and no way of breaking your system - I use Appimagelauncher for managing them but have been considering swapping to something like Appman/AM.
The other thing that sometimes puts me off of native packages is having to deal with excessive numbers of PPAs or other repos when they aren’t in the main ones.
That is a great consideration that I have not looked into in awhile. It seems to be the ultimate third, or perhaps second, solution for getting software to just work. I will look into Appimagelauncher, and try out that version is native or flatpak fails me somehow.
Yeah, user submitted packages are such a risk sometimes.
I have been for awhile. It also all exists in my home directory, so when I format my root and throw a different OS on, all my flatpaks are ready to go without installing any native packages. It’s just a more consistent experience using flatpaks.
Whoa. I had not considered backing Home that way! That is slick.
Honestly, reinstalling or moving to a new distro is such a bear precisely due to the time setting up my environment and all the software. I KNOW I can script all this, or at least have a list of packages I use, but it does not really work when different package managers use different naming schemes.
Yeah as long as you at least copy your home user folder, then you’re golden. I plan for my root to be wiped at any given time, so my important stuff lives in my home. That’s why it’s super nice with flatpaks! I believe if you install as user and system flatpaks, I think they both install in home? I’d stick to installing as a user for flatpaks if you can, it’s the same end result anyways and I’ve never had an issue.
This has officially won me over. I am not a minimalist, nor do I have some principled view of package management. I care about computing, and I am all for anything that makes it easier. I am the kind of person who wants all the software I will ever think to use already installed. I see my computer like a library. It is a castle, not a tiny home. I don’t give a shit about “wasted space.” I can always buy more.
Containerization is awesome, and I will embrace it.
Just curious, what distro are you on right now?
I’m using Fedora, but thinking of swapping to Silverblue. If you’re going full on containerization, I’d try Silverblue as an immutable system + containerized apps is definitely the future. Fedora/Silverblue is developed by Red Hat, who also develops flatpaks, so they all have some serious man power. But flatpaks are system agnostic so you can use whatever. I’d just recommend looking for immutable distros to future proof your system. Which flatpaks also has some of that built in too. I think the exact same way as you :)
@mojo @DidacticDumbass As somebody who’s not very knowledgeable about Linux, what is an immutable system?
I think what it means is that your OS layer is totally isolated from your User layer. So, installing software won’t directly mess with your system, possibly breaking things.
Everything is isolated, so it is easy to add thing or roll back with practically no obstacles or consequences.
Okay, I was between this and OpenSuse MicroOS. I guess it makes sense to use the distro by the company that makes the technology I want.
I was looking at trying MicroOS but I got the feeling it was for servers, but I haven’t tried it so I’m guessing lol. I do know it’s immutable though.
I will trial both I guess. See which I like more.
I am leaning towards Fedora just to have Pipewire and Walyand standard.
I am comfortable with any desktop enviroment as long as it is not KDE. I would rather use a mouseless tiling WM than that.
I prefer my binary over every other universal packages.
Yeah, every universal solution seems to have problems that are major deal breakers.
On my main PC I use for gaming I run Arch and prefer native packages whenever I can use them. I’m quite happy to have this one computer by a hobby project, and native applications just make more sense on something as up to date as Arch when they’re available. I have started to prefer Flatpak over AUR packages though. The AUR is pretty overrated, in my opinion.
On my laptop and anything else I install Linux on I usually just use LMDE, and I’ll often prefer the Flatpak, just because it’s way more up to date. There are some apps that Mint keeps up to date native versions of, and there are some apps that come preinstalled that I just don’t care about having the latest version of, but for everything else I usually just download the Flatpak.
No, because I don’t have a very powerful computer
Even if I did, I would still prefer to have native applications because it would be more permissive
I am totally ignorant, do flatpaks use a lot more processing?
They can take longer to start up, which can suck on older hardware. It’s not as bad as it used to be though. Once they’re running there shouldn’t really be any difference. The main drawback is actually that Flatpaks use more storage space.
I am glad that the startup times have improved, that bodes well for future startup times. Using up more storage really is what makes it suck for everyone. I thought that it was more efficient, since I see a lot of .platform, and I assumed those are libraries shared across flatpak apps that use those dependencies.
I am almost sure AppImage has the same problem? I don’t know, people do rated that better though.
Storage space mostly isn’t as bad as it is with AppImages. Each AppImage stores all the libraries it needs, even if they are shared with another one. They can’t even know if they have shared libraries. A single AppImage will probably actually use less storage than a single Flatpak if you only have one, just because the AppImage only uses exactly the libraries it needs, while Flatpaks use shared sets of them. That being said, Flatpaks generally get less bad the more of them you use, because of the shared libraries. They’re still a whole extra set of libraries on top of your system ones though, plus they put out a new set every year. Apps that are still under active development generally get updated to the latest version, but older apps that are basically finished often require older libraries, so that’s more space used. Overall for a one off program when you’re not using universal packaging systems regularly AppImages are mostly better, but if you’re going to be using them regularly Flatpak quickly becomes far better. It still uses more storage space than just using native apps though.
Another difference between Flatpak and AppImage is that it can be kind of a pain to theme Flatpaks to match the rest of your system, and I don’t know of any good way to do it with qt6 apps yet, but it’s just straight up impossible to theme AppImages. They can technically have themes built into them, but unless you’re using Adwaita, or maybe Breeze if you’re lucky, they just don’t, and having to rebuild your own custom AppImage completely defeats the main benefit of using AppImages.
That is what I thought, and I was confused about people complaining about the redundancy. Also, every new program I install manually seems to pull a crap-tonne of new dependencies, so nobody is saving space.
There might be an increase in startup time and RAM usage because it loads it’s own dependencies instead of using system libraries, but the difference is probably very little.
I imagine that is the case. I also feel that is a trifle. Unless one is constantly closing and opening an application they use often, the extra seconds starting should not break a workflow.
I think it’s probably a couple ms instead of whole seconds but I haven’t tested it.
Sure. I personally have not noticed a difference. Then again, I recently got a new computer, and all my other computers are over a decade old, so everything feels luxurious.
