I used to have a Pitbull, such a beautiful girl, who one day chased and killed one of our cats she’d grown up with. My friend had her brother, such a beautiful boy, who one day chased and killed one of their cats.
Last week, on my lifestyle block, two Pitbulls appeared and killed my chickens before I could stop them. I chased the fuckers off but haven’t found where they came from.
That is all.
That’s not just Pitbull behavior though. That’s called prey drive and a lot of breeds have that. Some everyone expects like Greyhounds and Bulldogs. But it’s also present in breeds like Golden Retrievers, Bassett Hounds, and Irish Setters. Are we going to ban Golden’s next? They can also feature the fun perk, protectiveness, where they go after anyone who gets close to their human. And any dog can become reactive.
I’ll take the dogs that are less prone to “prey drive” thank you very much. You don’t really see Goldens or Bassetts mauling small creatures or humans.
Tbh amstaffs are quite low on the prey drive. Small terriers, dachshunds, schnauzers, pointers, setters and dalmatians on the other hand have a very big prey drive.
I mean, they are not called hunting dogs, retriever, setter or pointers for nothing. And small terriers have for centuries been bred to kill every rat, mice and what have you in their vincinity.
But yeah, in the end all dogs are predators. And if you let them go unchecked bad things will happen. Especially when you have a powerful breed.
Cats do the same BTW. But for some reason we’re OK with dead mice and birds around the house.
All in all its the same discussion as with guns (and cars): guns don’t kill people, people kill people. And with dogs it’s more or less the same: bad or owners who are Inattentive will Allmost always result in big problems.
And while I do love amstaffs, they can be such chill and fun hunks of love, I can’t deny that they do real damage, more damage when left unchecked and we should probably regulate ownership like with guns and cars.
I do not think outright banning a breed is the solution. Because other breeds are just as susceptible to bad ownership. It will not solve it. The problem will just move away from amstaffs back too rottweilers and dobermans. Or another big powerful breed.
Like with guns we should make it harder for the assholes to acquire one. And like with cars you should prove yourself to be able to take care of one.
How many people have been mauled to death by Bassett hounds?
How many Basset Hound owners are wannabe tough guys? Not trying to excuse the behaviour, but there is definitely at least a correlation between behaviour of the dogs and that of their owners.
Man fuck off with this dumb bullshit, like half of the attacks are from family dogs where the family insists it was perfectly nice, not some biker.
More than you think. Go have a Google.
I did, basset hounds kill a whole lot less people than pitbulls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
And any dog can become reactive.
Any cat can give you a scratch or a bite, it’s just worse if the cat is a tiger. That’s why most places do allow a small pet cat and not a tiger.
Sausage dogs are extremely tough dogs with a lot of prey drive, because they were bred to hunt alone for example a
dodgerbadger underground defending its home. They bite often, are often (pro-)reactive but if someone dies through them it is an old lady stumbling over the leash and breaking her neck, not the dog ripping her guts out.With that line of thinking we shouldn’t have any dogs above toy size.
What is a dodger? When I Google it all I get is the baseball team. Like an animal that is dodging the dog?
dodger
badger, my bad, English is not my first language
No problem! Just wanted to understand.
What is a lifestyle block? Is that a new way of saying neighbourhood?
The thing I have noticed about pitballs is that they have like this beast mode where they seem to just lose it with rage. Also because of their jaw strength when they do lose it whatever they do is much worse than regular dogs.
Oh my springer will be sad. There are 4 dogs in our area that brings him out of his shell from being very careful and cautious, to a raving loon that sends him to loony town… it would be a shame if these two frisky buddies couldn’t play.
Every couple of weeks I feed mine a toddler, it seems to keep the violent tendencies away.
"It is not currently a breed defined in law, so this vital first step must happen fast.
"We will then ban the breed under the Dangerous Dogs Act and new laws will be in place by the end of the year.
Meanwhile, Downing Street denied the government had taken too long to ban American XL bully dogs.
Asked whether ministers had “dragged their heels” on outlawing the breed, the prime minister’s official spokesman said: "I wouldn’t accept that.
“Clearly this breed of dog isn’t defined in law so it’s right to take the time to consider the best way to put an end to these horrendous attacks that we’re seeing.”
But there is concern a move to prohibit the animal may not be practical due to the American XL bully not being recognised as a breed by the Kennel Club, which could mean any ban may inadvertently outlaw other kinds of dogs.
How do you determine whether a dog is a specific breed of dog without anyone defining the breed standards?
“Garbage dogs for garbage people”
Whoa grab some popcorn folks cause this comment section is a dumpster fire. Do we have a lemmy drama community yet?
How is it a dumpster fire? I don’t see anyone defending the breed.
I think we should genocide every dog because any dog is more dangerous than no dogs.
Agreed, but lets start with pitbulls
You summoned one!
That’s because this isn’t a breed specific problem. Unless that breed is Human. Humans can fuck up any dog on purpose or not and the shitbags who like this breed specifically because it has a reputation will just choose a new breed to fuck up after you ban this one. This has been the pattern of Breed Specific Legislation everywhere it’s been introduced. You can do all of the same aggressive training with a Golden Retriever. And the list of dogs known to have a protective streak is as long as my arm.
Not sure why people downvote this, it’s objectively correct. We bred these dogs to be what they are, we can absolutely breed something else to take its place. This is really basic evolution and trait selection.
I think they’re great looking dogs, but I also think they need a similar ban in the US, barring a few highly specialized breeders, who can essentially reverse what was done to them over a period of generations. I don’t want to see them go away entirely, I’d just like them controlled until we can breed out what we’ve bred in.
It’s not even that’s much to do with the breeding. They are very trainable dogs with a prey drive. They just get shit owners who encourage the aggressive behavior because of the street rep. They’ll do the same thing with Boxers, Dobermans, Rottweilers, and generally any short haired breed that looks muscular.
That is hilarious. But there is a real problem here. It’s like we just transferred systemic racism to dogs. We create the problem in the stats and then blame the dogs that were abused to do it.
I have a dream where Pitbulls and Chihuahuas can play in the same dog park together.
It’s like we just transferred systemic racism to dogs.
I actually saved this into a list of ignorant comments I keep. Is easily top ten material. Comparing the banning of pit bulls to the result of the slave trade is a hell of a comment. Congratulations?
I’m sorry, you think systemic racism stopped when we outlawed most slavery?
Screw the dogs, tell me more about this utopia you live in without modern day systemic racism.
Not to say I agree with him but he didn’t compare those two things at all. He said it’s the same mentality that underlies racism and ‘breedism’ for lack of a better word.
Comparing people to dogs is fucked up. Asian, latinos, etc aren’t “breeds”. There’s also the implication of certain races being more prone to committing crimes. Honestly, both of you stink like racists.
Dog breeds are not comparable to human races. You might as well compare your woodshed to London.
Whoosh. The point is we enable these shitty owners who encourage aggressive behavior then we blame the dog when we set the system up that way.
I mean ban shitty owners from owning another animal, put them in jail for animal abuse, fuck do both. But there is a huge difference in damage between a pitbull attack and say a greyhound.
Whoosh. The dog was bred for a long time to be mean and cause a lot of damage when it was angry.
“Genetics matter, but genetics are a nudge in a given direction. They’re not a destiny,” Evan MacLean, the director of the Arizona Canine Cognition Center at the University of Arizona, who was not involved in the research, tells NPR. “We’ve known that for a long time in human studies, and this paper really suggests that the same is true for dogs.”
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095390872/dog-breeds-behavior-study
I’ve noticed once someone starts talking about “breed determines behavior, it’s in their genes!!!”. It doesn’t take much more for them to start saying the same about other animals, like humans.
“Banning pitbull? Just a step away from banning races!”
The whole human population has less genetic diversity than a random troupe of chimps, much less domestic dogs as a whole. We’re absurdly uniform.
Interestingly, the same people who pushed the whole dog breed thing were pushing the white supremacy thing last century. Now, they are just idiots pushing an easy issue when all they need to do is look at actual studies.
owner survey
*For anyone else, breed was tested genetically, behavior was an owner survey. GIGO.
RESULTS We surveyed owners of 18,385 dogs (49% purebred) and sequenced the DNA of 2155 dogs. Most behavioral traits are heritable [heritability (h2) > 25%], but behavior only subtly differentiates breeds. Breed offers little predictive value for individuals, explaining just 9% of variation in behavior. For more heritable, more breed-differentiated traits, like biddability (responsiveness to direction and commands), knowing breed ancestry can make behavioral predictions somewhat more accurate (see the figure). For less heritable, less breed-differentiated traits, like agonistic threshold (how easily a dog is provoked by frightening or uncomfortable stimuli), breed is almost uninformative. We used dogs of mixed breed ancestry to test the genetic effect of breed ancestry on behavior and compared that to survey responses from purebred dog owners. For some traits, like biddability and border collie ancestry, we confirm a genetic effect of breed that aligns with survey responses. For others, like human sociability and Labrador retriever ancestry, we found no significant effect. Through genome-wide association, we found 11 regions that are significantly associated with behavior, including howling frequency and human sociability, and 136 suggestive regions. Regions associated with aesthetic traits are unusually differentiated in breeds, consistent with a history of selection, but those associated with behavior are not.
What alternative kind of study do you think would be better?
And if one exists that comes to a different conclusion, can you link it?
Good. Too bad more countries aren’t doing this.
13 dog breeds and mixed breeds are banned in Denmark: https://en.foedevarestyrelsen.dk/animals/animal-welfare/danish-legislation-on-dogs as one example.
We regulate cars pretty heavily, we regulate guns decently.
When it comes to dogs, across the entire world, literally crickets chirping. No government does anything.
I think there are some strict laws in Germany when it comes to dog ownership.
There’s a whole bunch of countries where they wouldn’t even think of regulating them as pets because dogs are purely working animals or feral.
There’s a whole bunch of countries where they wouldn’t even think of regulating them as pets because dogs are purely working animals or feral.
Don’t stop there, champ. Which countries?
This article was interesting, and suggested that there could be a specific issue with the breeding lines of the XLs in the UK. Worth a read for anyone who’s actually interested in reading further than a headline.
This is definitely the highest priority action item in the U.K. Right now.
/s
I fuckin’ hate the tories, but you do realise governments can do more than one thing at once, right?
Unsurprising. Large “power breeds” like pit bulls I have always found questionable to have.
No restrictions or licenses? No muzzles at least?
A good thing they banned them.
Though I still dislike the outright malice and hate I see when a pit bull in a photo might be doing nothing but staring at a sunset. A bit hate crazy.
Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
People with access to verifiable data overlook the appearance of safety to express a legitimate concern about a breed that’s demonstrably more likely to kill? What dorks!
Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
My childhood pitbull bit me in the face and I have permanent face scarring from it. I had to get 60+ stitches to reconstruct my face.
It’s not a valid point to say “most don’t attack people” when the breed is much more likely to attack a person compared to other breeds. Then it’s made worse by the fact they’ve been bred to be extra good at attacking.
Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
They have the most kills because they are more likely to attack than any other breed, and more dangerous when they do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
Just stop. You can’t even put a decent argument together and you aren’t helping anyone. Please, just stop.
Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
If you’re a dog owner and you’re paying attention, then your personal experience should include the following truth: any dog can go postal. If you then combine this with the knowledge that pitbulls are much more deadly than other dogs when being agressive, then you must reach the conclusion that this breed should be banned, even though that is admittedly a sad conclusion.
by that logic you would ban every dog on the planet
Every dog on the planet is more aggressive than all other dogs on the planet?
Each more similar than the last!
Well surely it’s a spectrum that people are advocating an arbitrary line be placed on. Once this breed is gone, what about the next most aggressive breed? They then become the most aggressive breed and there’ll be calls to weed them out too. Dogs kill more humans than any other non-human vertebrate in the world by a very long shot - getting rid of one breed isn’t going to reduce that number to zero.
To clarify, I’m not against the move of banning the breed at all, I’m just acutely aware that it’s making an arbitrary distinction.
Dogs kill more humans than any other non-human vertebrate in the world by a very long shot
I looked into this, based on some other comments. Turns out it’s snakes. Various sources list dogs at between 13,000 and 35,000 deaths per year, and snakes in a range of 75,000-100,000.
Edit: but if we’re talking one species, dogs might edge out the deadliest snake. Really hard to say, based on the data I was able to find.
That is not a good argument, it is dishonest and disingenuous.
You’re actually using the same logic people used to try and avoid gay marriage.
removed by mod
Pitbulls are deadlier than all other breeds combined. They are 10 times as deadly as the next most aggressive breed. You don’t need to pull out the slippery slope fallacy, when the line is very clearly at pitbulls.
Pitbulls are not the deadliest dog out there. Not by a long shot. They’re just the ones people like to make aggressive.
Except they are, though. They’re bred to be as deadly as possible. This is a verifiable fact.
It’s important to understand what people mean when they say things. These people aren’t saying that pit bulls are more physically capable of killing people than any other breed, they’re saying that they’re responsible for more deaths than any other breed.
It’s a bit like saying the flu is deadler than ebola. Ebola may have a higher mortality rate, but it’s so much less likely to infect people that it has a much smaller kill count.
Then they can say that.
Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
i am a dog owner, and know many dog owners, and have personally known 2 neighbors who lost pets due to pits who went ‘postal’
anecdotes gunna anecdote
Can this possibly be true?
If a dog switches to aggressive mode and stops listening to commands, trying to attack (another dog, a cat, a deer, a bird, a human) that’s what I mean by “going postal”. In most cases they are restrained on leash. The outcome, and the target (for the sake of this argument) are not important. It is not possible to predict accurately when they will do this.Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
I mean that’s fairly obvious from subtext. If you had, you would most likely be too traumatised to be defending them on an online forum.
If you did you wouldn’t have been alive to say so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
I know a handful of pits who have bitten and severely injured people. For your positive anecdote there is a negative to match.
Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
Technically it is disengenuous to say statistically and then make up a statistic
Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
I do wonder how much is the breed and how much is shitty owners being attracted to perceived scary breeds. My guess would be a bit of both.
You don’t need to train a pointer puppy to point. They do it from birth. You don’t need to train a sheep dog to herd. They do it from the moment they can walk. You don’t need to teach a pit bull to latch and shake. They also do that from birth. Training can mitigate the risk, but they’re still very dangerous dogs.
If that logic holds true than pure American pitbull terriers should actually be the safest dogs to own in regards to people. Pitbulls where bred for dog fighting, but even more specifically they were bred to not bite the handlers. As getting a dog to fight is just a matter of time and selection, but getting a dog to fight only dogs and not people is something much more difficult and valuable, at the time.
But, that was many, many years ago. And the breed has been bred and bred and inbred and bred again. An American pitbull terrier average weight is about 35 to 60 lbs. Average. 35 is no bigger than an average corgi. With 60 at the high end being a small golden or average chow.
These XL bully breeds aren’t pitbulls. Hell, even pitbulls now days aren’t pitbulls. They are a mix of staffy, mastiff, American bull dogs, English bulldogs, and random other terriers. And then sold as designer breeds like the American bully with no regard for behavior, temperament, or loyalty.
They were trained for fighting. Hard stop.
Just so happens their normal sport was fighting dogs.
Literally every breed with a prey drive does the death shake. And they aren’t the only ones with locking jaws either. This is very much a problem of shitty people who like the reputation.
Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.
Ive seen people attack and kill buffalo. We should kill whichever breed of people do that.
Horses are fragile as fuck. Let’s talk about dogs that were bred to kill bears. Oh but wait they didn’t get a street rep and a million shitty owners abusing them. Alaskan Malamutes were bred to help with Polar Bears, they get to about 100 pounds, have a very strong bite, and a big independent streak making them harder to train. Oh yeah and they come with a warning about being around children.
What’s the difference in the actual breeds? The Malamute is giant fluffball. The Pitbull has many manly muscles.
The problem is that there’s no way to tell a bad owner from a good one, which is how we end up in situations like this. I’ve almost had my throat torn out as I made my way to the bus stop because a very submissive owner couldn’t control his dommy gshep, which was lunging and straining at the leash in order to kill me.
I love sheps and have met some extremely good owners, but they are few and far between compared to the jackasses who bring their Rottweilers into bars, where the dog goes absolutely ballistic and starts making kill noises at everyone until the owner has to leave the bar. And that happened last month, lol.
oh oh I read a study answering that.
It depends on behavior. They found high correlation between breed and how many time they turned around before laying down. Certain common trip like sit or come. But not aggressive behavior. They highest correlation for that was back ground. Dog from the streets or abusive backgrounds. Followed by a small correlation with genetics, which is not the same as breed.
Breed did have anything to do with aggression. Also most people can’t tell a pitbull from other dogs, and studies that look at dog attacks only rely on the victim just saying what breed attacked them
most people that know how to train dogs have perfectly well behaved dogs, of course they’re always going to be animals at the end of the day but we shouldn’t be surprised when they act out either
You need to go one step further - why do people feel the need to own such dogs in the first place? Some people would say the dog is for protection (from who? And why are those people a threat? It’s well known that lack of social and communal services lead to young people ending up involved with gangs and violence), others use it as a status symbol (don’t even get me started on consumerism, and commodification of natural shit like animals), and in almost all cases there is a lot of toxic masculinity involved.
These are all deep rooted systemic issues that go far beyond both dogs and owners (don’t get me wrong - I am not excusing bad dog ownership, and don’t think people should be raising violent and aggressive dogs), and they all need addressing to actually resolve the problem, but it’s much easier for those in charge to focus on the end result, and make it an individual issue, they don’t care about making society better, they just want power and money.
Not arguing here, all your points are correct, just sharing why I have a big scary dog. He’s half GSD, quarter american pit (not xl) and quarter American staffordshire. I got him for two reasons, 1) I have a first floor patio in a bad neighborhood and he’s got a great guard insinct, and 2) he’s a big baby and makes a great emotional support animal (ptsd anxiety and ASD). I don’t need protection, I just need a buddy to scare off the crackheads who have tried to walk into my appartment just because I wanted some fresh air and left the door open. He loves everyone, but oh boy if I don’t let you in myself you’re in for one hell of time. I’ve raised dogs all my life, knew what I wanted, and what I was getting into. That is unfortunately not the case 90% of the time and it pisses me off when I see it. Honestly I would love to require people get a liscense to own a dog (let alone have children)
Honestly I would love to require people get a liscense to own a dog
That’s the case in Germany, depending on state and breed. With what I heard about US dogs and their utter lack of training (e.g. not being able to lie under a table under a restaurant and chill) you should probably make it universal, though.
(let alone have children)
…that’s not going to happen. How about teaching pedagogy and developmental psychology in school, say ages 14 to 16, start of the “seeing kids as kids” age. Speaking of, domestic animal psychology is actually a great topic for biology, doesn’t need to go into depth but some fundamental stuff about cats and dogs so that people are less likely to misinterpret what they see should easily fit the curriculum.
(let alone have children)
Who exactly would be in charge of approving those licenses, Herr Führer?
In the past I’d say it’s a bit of both, though moreso the type of shitheads attracted to ‘scary’ breeds is also as likely to be shit at training/ socialising them. There’s some good evidence though that this particular ‘XL’ breed has higher rates of inbreeding and has already been selected for agression (not to mention their increased size & power).
Think it’s a fair point some are making though that just banning the latest dangerous breed is missing the wood for the trees. There should be serious penalties from any dog attack, for the owner; treat it the same as possession of a dangerous weapon like a gun or zombie knife.
deleted by creator
Pitbull?
The article I found says border collie and red heeler.
Dog ejected from vehicle in Idaho crash found two days later herding sheep
It’s bit of both. These morons aren’t lining up to buy daschunds.
In the case of decent owners probably 50/50. Bad owners more like 10/90 (dog/owner).
deleted by creator
I’ve got an Am Staff/German Shepherd mix and she is literally a baby. Whenever I’m on the couch she wants up and cuddles. If I go to bed she wants to sleep next to me. Even insists on making sure I touch her paw while she sleeps. Raise your dog right, socialise them, train them, and they won’t be a problem.
Thank fuck I don’t live in the UK. It’s disgusting how they can go into your home and “destroy” a member of your family even if there are no complaints from anyone and never once been an incident. I hate violence, but I would absolutely become violent if the state tried to murder a member of my family without any just cause.
Won’t happen. I actually train my dogs. Also, go fuck yourself for the implication.
That’s what every one of those families thought too. (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So is it just a crazy coincidence that they’re responsible for 60% of all dog attacks involving hospitalization? They’re the highest fatality causing breed in the world. It’s not just the owners.
yeah don’t blame the owner, blame the dog, morons
Hey it’s like I always said. Not all pitbulls are bad dogs, but all pitbull owners are bad owners.
that’s just stupid
