dude is a creepy MFer
People defending their friends are now “creepy.” The internet has ruined people’s brains.
When your friend is a rapist, yeah that’s fucking creepy, and it’s creepy you don’t think so.
If I found out tomorrow that my best friend was a rapist, not only would I be speaking out against him, he’d no longer be my friend.
What if you believed your friend?
It’s not the “defending their friend” thing people are upset with, I think you know that. Using reductionism to try and make people you disagree with look like they’re sticks in the mud “for just defending their friend!” instead just makes you look deranged for apparently glossing over or completely not caring about the “leniency for rapists” bit.
Bro they wrote character letters for a sentencing.
That’s literally why people are mad.
Yes, they said good things about a rapist’s character so now their character is in question
He and Kunis are learning the hard lesson of “shutting up is free.”
It was stupid of them to say anything. They aren’t in the court room. Their letters aren’t going to affect the decision nor sentencing.
Their letters aren’t going to affect the decision nor sentencing.
Lmao… What exactly do you think the point of pre-sentencing character references in criminal proceedings is? Please be specific.
The fact that Ashton was not aware about the numerous sexual assaults coming from the church of scientology is really damming. Sure, he can be biased about long term friend/coworker, it’s messed up to write charcter letters after the victim testimony when the went in to the details of what Masterson did, but to turn a blind eye to scientology? And you care about victims? About. trafficking? About SA? Fuck off.
Clearly they were never serious about Thorn and was likely only a PR move. At least Debra Jo Rupp and Kurtwood Smith haven’t spent the last couple years telling people to believe victims. Still gross, but Ashton put him self on this pedestal. Kunis to a lesser extent, since she wasnt a founder. But I am just so disappointed at all of these people.
I do believe in innocent until proven guilty, but Ashton publicly crucified and called every person arrested by thorn a trafficker and rapist, before they had their day in court. Yet when it’s his friend, even after three verdict, he’s still defending him. It just makes all his work with thorn look self serving, and makes me wonder if he’s doing it to throw people off the scent, considering he bedded a 14 year old.
makes me wonder if he’s doing it to throw people off the scent, considering he bedded a 14 year old
Wait what??
When he and his wife met, she was 14. He claims that he did absolutely nothing with her until she turned 18, but considering the stuff that’s come out about them in those days recently, I don’t believe him
Ashton’s first wife was 15 years older than him? And when he married Mila she would’ve been 32.
I guess they did meet on set when Mila was 14 but like she didn’t start dating him until she was in her late twenties and it looks like she was dating Macaulay Culkin before then.
I have no dog in this fight really… I don’t have any particular feelings for Ashton; but that doesn’t really hit me as the moves of a predator. By her late twenties Mila surely was old enough to make her own choices, no? And she was clearly with someone else for a long time, no?
Life sentences are inhumane
Well, it is not as much as a “non profit fighting human trafficking” as they sell it. It is a tech org that sells facial recognition technology to law enforcement, that doesn’t really help saving kids, but rather persecute consensual and voluntary sex workers.
It is what happens when tech Bros want to try and save the world without really listening to the vulnerable people they are trying to “help”.
Now his hypocrisy was exposed for defending a convicted rapist because “he was nice to me” no shit Ashton, im sure Epstein was also nice to his friends.
The reason Epstein was undetected or untouched was because he was nice. Getting along means not getting caught. Now that doesn’t mean that everyone nice is up to something, but it means it is a reason he was able to infiltrate so many upper crust circles.
What it is just used for prosecuting adult non-trafficed sex workers?? That’s such a ridiculous perversion of the original mission statement, what a piece of shit. “Helping” sex workers by making them go to prison lol, which is the same way police “help” people with substance abuse problems. He was also an investor in Uber so it’s adds up that he only cares for making money.
That’s such a ridiculous perversion of the original mission statement
This is a reason to request some form of evidence from OP, rather than assume the worst of the lauded organization
that doesn’t really help saving kids, but rather persecute consensual and voluntary sex workers.
I’d love a citation on this if you’ve got it.
Listen to a recent episode about it from the podcast There’s No Girl On The Internet.
Here’s some sources too.
Sex, lies, and surveillance: Something’s wrong with the war on sex trafficking: https://www.engadget.com/2019-05-31-sex-lies-and-surveillance-fosta-privacy.html
Real Men Get Their Facts Straight: https://www.villagevoice.com/real-men-get-their-facts-straight/
Ashton Kutcher Claims He Helped Cops Save Way More Sex-Trafficking Victims Than Authorities Say They’ve Found: https://reason.com/2017/02/15/ashton-kutcher-plays-sex-worker-savior/
The bogus claim that 300,000 U.S. children are ‘at risk’ of sexual exploitation: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/05/28/the-bogus-claim-that-300000-u-s-children-are-at-risk-of-sexual-exploitation/
SEX TRAFFICKING Online Platforms and Federal Prosecutions : chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-21-385.pdf
Fuck websites that make the video follow you while you scroll.
Thanks for saving me a click bud
Just for that I’m giving them an anti-click!
The right decision since it looks hypocritical now.
I’m sure the kids who need help a really worried about the perceived hypocrisy of someone in the organization… /s
What if he wasn’t part of this before, but wrote the letter for Danny, got the backlash, then apologized and joined an organization like this to help make right where his friend did wrong? Would he still be a hypocrite or just someone trying to right some of the wrongs in the world?
Sometimes this moral outrage does more harm than good. Pushing people with means away from good causes is not a good outcome.
The kids who need help might not associate Kutcher with the organisation, but donors and supporters sure as hell will.
At this point, he has written a letter of support, lauding the moral upstanding of a convicted rapist. Any way you slice it, it’s not a good look from a fundraising perspective. Why would I support the anti-sex trafficking group that has a rape apologist as it’s figurehead? The nuance of writing a letter to support a friend who has done terrible things is it’s own murky issue. But from a purely business standpoint, Kutcher is a liability for the moment.
Your example ignores the trajectory of the situation. If Kutcher had supported the rapist, received backlash, and joined the org, it would be an individual taking steps to make better choices. As it stands, he is this organisation to many people (I couldn’t name anyone else involved). His actions reflect directly on the org, and ignoring his actions is not a good look.
Imagine if he was asked to write a letter of support, but then thought, “No. That’s a bad idea”.
Would people still be angry then?
Idiot.
I don’t get what they were thinking, how could they write a character letter for a convinced rapist? “Ya but he never raped us!”
I’m sure that’s not what was in his letter.
If your question is merely about public relations, sure it’s a terrible move. But I think there’s actually a more meaningful question underlying all this furor; what are the limits of friendship or love? What is one supposed to do when someone close does something horrible? Cast them aside? Pretend you never knew them?
Kutcher must have had some idea of the risk he was taking, but he did it anyway. I find that striking. For some people friendships can be like family. I feel like this is an older sentiment that doesn’t find expression often today. Would you find it appalling if Masterson’s mother spoke on behalf of his character, or should she likewise keep her distance?
I don’t know. It all just seems more complicated and tragic than the typical social media mob can process.
If Masterson’s mother ran a non-profit that helped rape victims it would be a conflict of interest for her to write a character reference for her rapist son.
As it was here for Kutcher and it damaged his reputation badly.
Otherwise appreciate your post. There are a lot of interesting questions in it about human nature.
Personally, I think the church of scientology black mailed him into writing this. That Masterson spilled some dirt to his cult.
Ashton plays an idiot on tv but I don’t think he’s that dumb in real life. So my bet is blackmail.
But he mentors other actors! And he doesn’t take drugs anymore!
I really don’t know what either of them were thinking. Rapists don’t need leniency, especially in this situation.
Oh mah gerd did you just assume Kutcher is just as bad as Masterson?!?? REEEEEE!!! INTERNET DOESN’T UNDERSTAND NUANCE!! /s
But for real, I think announcing support for a rapist is different than feeling sympathetic for an old friend. Many idiots on this thread seem to not understand the difference and it’s infuriating. If Kutcher would’ve just said, “Hey, he’s an old friend and I hope he gets the help he needs ASAP” I don’t think many people would care. But obviously, that wasn’t the case and some people can’t seem to understand that very basic concept.
But for real, I think announcing support for a rapist is different than feeling sympathetic for an old friend.
In this case, it’s actually not.
They likely assumed it wouldn’t get out. They were banking on being able to use their celebrity to try and influence the outcome.
Someone in a comment a few days ago, who was themselves asked to write such a letter for someone they knew who was charged and ultimately convicted, made an excellent observation:
Defense attorneys are very likely to have requested those character reference letters way before the case even made it to trial. So it’s entirely possible that Kutcher and Kunis wrote those letters long ago, based on information they had at the time, probably thinking the charges were unfounded.
Now, obviously, the easy solution to that would be if they were to come out now and tell whether that happened or not, and make clear what they think now. Which is what I would do, but I’m also not a Hollywoo celebrity with publicists and handlers and lawyers.
You’re lying or spreading incorrect information.
If you’re doing it maliciously: stop it.
If you’re just an idiot, stop it.
This makes sense and it’s kind of what I thought has happened. No one could really be that unaware as to write a character reference for someone convicted and not expect backlash. But why wouldn’t they just say that then ? Why not make a statement saying the reference was old, and they’re shocked and disappointed someone they trusted could do such a thing.
That’s what I don’t understand
I saw that comment too. It shed a lot of light on a topic that I personally don’t know much about.
On the other hand, sometimes people can get weird about sticking up for their friends under any circumstances. My parents and brother are weird that way. One example - they know a rich white kid who killed an entire family by driving drunk. The kid’s own family disowned him. They didn’t help with his legal support, his twin brother cut ties with anyone who supported him, and he did time in the state prison. I don’t know the details about the crime, but he had graduated from a flagship state university and was from a very wealthy family. Not “paid for a wing at the local hospital wealthy” but definitely, “has a regulation size basketball court in their basement” wealthy. He absolutely fit the profile of Brock Allen Turner (the rapist).
He still got 5-10 years in state. It must have been bad. My family stepped up to support this asshole.
My brother routinely visited him in prison and gave him a job when he got out. I don’t really fault my brother for that. (OK - I judge him a bit. The kid was always an asshole and he killed people. But he did his time.)
On the other hand, my parents have nothing but good things to say about this guy and generally act like he was the victim of a huge conspiracy by the state. They were also offended that their own personal friend “Stanley” was sent to old people prison (nursing home) for “no reason” after he threatened to shoot his nephew. It was a credible threat, too. Stan is very well armed and had been going off his rocker for more than a few years.
tl/dr - my family are assholes but if they decide you’re a ride or die friend it doesn’t matter what you’ve done
Not commenting is also an option for you, just for future reference.
Because God forbid we try and understand?
I don’t think that’s weird. Your family are just assholes sticking together with another asshole.
If I’m not mistaken, Kutcher’s letter actually referenced the verdict.
Oh well fuck him, then.
Right?! There has to be missing info.
Why would someone take a stand against abuse, but defend an old friend found guilty of that offense.
Also- why should Ashton resign? If anything, he should redouble his efforts. Smells of cowardice.
I’m gonna rely on my tried and true method of “take the good and leave the bad”. Rich/famous folk live in a different world that I’d rather not spend too much time thinking about. I will continue to appreciate power being used to benefit the entirety of this world, though. Greedy people like rewards as much as or probably more than peasants like me.
As to why he would defend that, it’s just simple relationship bias. We’ll hesitate a hell of a lot more if it’s someone we like or think we know.
You should have seen the irrational tenacity with which one of my parents stuck by a pedophile, right up until their first few nights in prison, simply because they were dating. Even if it meant losing everyone around her. She was the only person under god who couldn’t see this a mile away. His own kid was his first accuser, but surely not, right?
What kind of thing could your best friends do that you wouldn’t initially defend them over?
These two have known each other for literal decades. I’m not too surprised he would refuse to accept it from someone he’s been friends with for that long.
I am shocked that he would choose to step down entirely over it. I could see the question presenting itself to him, since it’s…not wonderful PR…but I would have thought the cause itself would have been more important to him. He’s between a rock and a hard place.
The thing you don’t want to admit is that Kutcher doesn’t actually consider being a serial rapist a deal breaker for his friends.
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“Also- why should Ashton resign? If anything, he should redouble his efforts. Smells of cowardice.”
A spokesperson who is now the lightning rod for an issue that will detract from the message the organisation is trying to espouse, is a bad spokesperson.
Bristol Palin the national spokesperson for teen abstinence. 🙄
She’s actually not at all. But you might in fact be the spokesperson for misguided pregnancies.
Yeah my understanding was that these were post conviction. And if that were the case why weren’t there a bunch more letters from all the other cast members. Unless they knew. I bet Topher knew…
I mean…
If he wasn’t found guilty, who would see the letter?
I knew a guy, generally a good guy, and he helped me out when I was young.
Anyways, he made some bad choices (namely cheating on his fiance with his childhood bestie), knocked said girl up, they got married… they had another kid… a few years later this relationship turned sour, and I was rarely hearing from him. I later learned he was living out of his car at times.
At one point during this mess he told me his soon to be ex wife invited him over one night, they slept together, then he woke up with the cops in his face and her accusing him of raping her last night.
I didn’t know what to think of it at the time, and I still don’t. The person I thought I knew never would’ve cheated on his fiance… surely he wouldn’t have raped someone.
Unlike this story, the charges for the guy I know were dropped and he wasn’t prosecuted, let alone convicted. Maybe it was just a ploy for a better outcome in the divorce? That seems to be the conclusion the police drew. If it had gone to trial and he’d been convicted… I probably wouldn’t have written a similar letter? But also maybe it would’ve been in some ways good for the judge to see not just this person at their worst moments but at better moments? What if the evidence wasn’t strong? What if I hadn’t followed the case closely?
I haven’t heard from this guy in years at this point, hence why I’m avoiding the word friend. However at one point, he was a friend … and I don’t find it so easy to reconcile the “person you know” with the “person you’ve been told you know”
I think it’s more about that difficulty reconciling, than “he never raped me.” If they weren’t lying in their letters as well… maybe this should just be considered part of the process? Like, yes Masterson committed the crime, now who else was he? Did he contribute nothing to society except for being a vicious Hollywood predator? etc.
The scientology thing adds a whole other angle here…
Anyways, the point is it’s easy to not understand why someone would do something, but that doesn’t mean it’s not understandable (it doesn’t mean it’s justified either).
All the letters have one thing in common though: they’re overly saccharine and suspiciously dodgy (actually that’s two things, sorry). It’s like they’re trying to describe a modern-day Beaver Cleaver.
I don’t know, this person has done a lot of decent things in his life. I’m not inclined to judge him by his worst decision.
Is that quote taken directly out of his letter supporting his rapist buddy?
So it’s ok that he rapes people? Vomit
Of course not. You know that, I know that, everyone reading this knows that, you are just being a troll. Stop, or get blocked.
Oh ok. Then what point are you trying to make? It’s not ok for him to rape people but you won’t judge him for it? Got it.
I think one of you is talking about Masterson and the other is talking about Kutcher.
Get out of here with your reason. That’s not what the internet is for. Now, would you like a torch or pitchfork?
Any way we can combine the two and make a flaming pitchfork? Maybe a knife-wrench kinda configuration?
Johnson, give this man a promotion
I’ll take the Torchfork
Cooks your food while you’re eating it!
Pitchtork for me
If that isn’t already the name of some obscure software or package/library/etc I’ll be disappointed it already sounds like I need to import it into my Python code idk what it does but without it shit just crashes
The Torchfork really ties the program together
https://pytorch.org/docs/stable/generated/torch.jit.fork.html
I’m not a coder, but I found this in like, 5 seconds.
That was reasonable? They didn’t even respond to my comment but instead just gave a boilerplate enlightened centrist response which is meaningless.
Can I try that forktorch that’s behind the counter?
I’ll need to see some ID.
Damn it jerkface, I told you not to go handing out the forktorch. I don’t care that you asked for id, the forktorch is for VIP ragers only.
I’ve got four stamps on my Valued Customer card! This is ridiculous. I need to speak to your manager now!
I prefer the tar and feathers.
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I think it’s fair to judge someone directly involved with covering up a rapist when that person is also very vocal and actively involved in combating exactly that crime. That’s a pretty massive lapse in judgement and more indicative of his true character than someone that had a single instance of road rage or similar emotional outburst.
directly involved with covering up a rapist
This is a pretty serious accusation. Just because he wrote a character letter does not mean he is actively involved in covering up a crime, that’s a gigantic leap.
his true character
And what would that be? A person who vouches for his friend? Someone who misjudged another person’s character, a mistake presumably you’d never make?
I think it’s fair to judge
No, you think it’s fun to judge and it’s your excuse to feel morally righteous and superior. You’ve made some accusations and backhanded disparagement based on what info? How is any part of it “fair”?
Writing a letter with the intent of reducing the sentence of a convicted rapist counts as a coverup in my book.
Also, individuals who continue to defend rapists are not good people. Doesn’t matter if they are friends.
His worst decision was very relevant to the organization he was part of. I get that they are friends but he probably should be in a good position to understand how unlikely it is that his friend was innocent and how dumb it would be to put himself on the line defending him given what that organization stands for.
“As it stands now, Brock’s life has been deeply altered forever by the events of Jan. 17th and 18th. He will never be his happy-go-lucky self with that easygoing personality and welcoming smile. His every waking minute is consumed with worry, anxiety, fear and depression,” Dan Turner wrote. “His life will never be the one that he dreamed about and worked so hard to achieve. That is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20-plus years of life.”
The judge misspelled “Actual Rapist Allen Turner, formerly known as Brock Turner”
Tell your friends! He’s going by his middle name now
Dammit, now I’m about to go down the rabbit hole after watching that video, so thanks
Oh wow, sounds like he freaked out and confided with Masterson that night. Interesting context in light of this character letter controversy and as far as their relationship goes.
I mean… He tocuhed a door knob and didn’t know it was a crime scene to report.
You were there?
I was there as much as the guy who said he didn’t report a crime was.
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Although I tend to agree, I think this was also the correct decision. He would have distracted from the good work the organisation does.
While the organization might do good work, I see far too many red flags in their demands. They are lobbying against end-to-end encryption for chat messages. The argument is that child abusers can hide behind encryption. While this is true, a ban would lead to no privacy for everyone.
The real-life equivalent would be mandatory microphones for everyone so authorities could catch child molesters more easily. Good cause but horrible methodology. And of course, if they succeed, criminals will move to other, maybe their own-built, messaging systems that still have encryption.
https://www.thorn.org/blog/encryption-trend-threatens-child-safety-gains/
Unfortunately, it doesnt matter how much good you’ve done. People love witch hunts. Whether this is his worst decision or not, it’s one decision, now the rest are erased.
He’s done good and would continue to, but people are happier if he is never heard from again rather than him helping kids for the rest of his life.
While I would tend to agree, if I’m reading this correctly, they sent the letters for the sentencing… meaning he was already convicted of rape and they were pleading for leniency for an old rapist buddy, like within the last few months. That is a really bad look no matter how you slice it.
In other words, whether Ashton Kutcher is actually guilty of anything does not matter, because a “bad look” is like a virus, and conviction enough for people to feel justified in upending his life / work. So proud of this brave new neo-puritanical world we live in today. /s
What’s the new, hip term for witch-hunt in 2023?
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You’re right, this kind of thing is nothing new. We’ve always been a society which will turn on a dime on anyone, no matter how good or poor the excuse, if given a good pretext to do so. It seems to be human nature.
Never give up a free chance to step on another human being to make oneself feel taller. Give them a few kicks while they are down for good measures. All made extra easy by the internet and cancel culture!
I think it’s something to do with fear of it happening to them, so they do unto others before others can do unto them.
Rape them before they can rape you
He’s also an old friend.
I don’t believe in guilt by association. Asking for leniency for an old friend to a judge, and he didn’t get it, doesn’t make them monsters or rapists by proxy.
If our culture demands every felon be shunned by their friends and family members going forward, then end the perverse charade and just kill everyone upon a felony conviction.
Masterson did a very bad thing, some friends wrote letters to inform the judge that that isn’t all he is and to consider that, not out of malice, but out of compassion.
Man, the internet has absolutely destroyed the concept of nuance. Then again, we only see our “justice,” lol, system as a way to turn the screws on bad people… that our society made, btw. Wanton spectator cruelty without the guilt. Not even a hint of attempts at rehabilitation, and just about everyone roots for a parolee’s failure to confirm their biases.
Advocating maximum cruelty be inflicted on a perpetrator shouldn’t be confused with compassion for the victim. Americans largely ignore that distinction, because it’s convenient, easy, and pleasurable to revel in cruelty and call it kindness.
It doesn’t make them rapists by proxy, but it does make them someone who believes the rapist they like should be the exception.
Is it really for an exception? Or just not making it any longer due to additional bad character traits?
My understanding is they look at the range of acceptable punishment, and then use these factors to determine where it should land. Providing a letter explaining his character would serve to put it on the lower end of it. It’s not so much an exception as it is just providing evidence for the court to make an informed decision for the range.
He didn’t get convicted of rape and being unlikeable. He was convicted of rape. The penalty being assessed is the penalty for rape. Whatever else he may have done, good or bad, he did the rape. He should pay the penalty for the rape that he did. If he collects money for disabled children on Sundays, he shouldn’t be punished less, he should pay the penalty for rape. If he’s a jerk who gets drunk on weeknights and starts his political opinions with “I’m not racist, but…” he shouldn’t be penalized additionally for that. He should be penalized for rape. This thing where we make room for “He’s a rapist, but…” is fucking garbage. It reeks of Brock Turner’s dad trying to reduce the lifetime of harm his son inflicted on a woman to “10 minutes of action”. If a rapist who operates a puppy rescue is less of a rapist than a rapist who does other things we all agree to be unpleasant then it’s not about the harm inflicted, it’s about how much we all generally like the rapist.
I agree with you in principle. But that isn’t how the judicial system works. Usually there’s a minimum, which is the actual punishment for the crime. Then there’s the maximum which is what they give you if you’re a repeat offender or they just generally think you’re an extra shitty person.
Given that, someone with otherwise good character is expected to get the minimum, which is the time for the crime without getting extra. In this case that minimum is 30 years.
But yeah, if you want to talk about how shit the judicial system is, I agree. I could go on about plea bargains, penalty ranges, etc being used as tools of oppression.
He’s a repeat offender. He was convicted on multiple counts. Strictly speaking, he’s not just a rapist, he’s a serial rapist.
But I do think we’d agree about plea bargains. They let the guilty off scot free and let the overworked, underfunded judicial system off the hook when it comes to innocent defendants.
Well, so I get that asking for leniency for an old buddy sure. However… the specific crimes he committed and the organization that Ashton works for/runs whatever. That’s a bad fucking look. That’s a real bad fucking look. Like, that undermines a lot of shit he’s done look.
It’s not like he just stole a car or something. Rapists deserve the worst punishments we have to offer.
They said he was a role model
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Nobody is saying it makes them monsters or rapists by proxy, it just makes them friends of a rapist who stayed his friend even after it was proven that he raped at least two people, and then asked for him to be treated leniently even though he certainly didn’t grant any leniency to the people he raped. And they’re free to do that. But disapproving of that isn’t guilt by association, that’s just them making choices regarding their relationship with a rapist that other people are free to judge and criticize them for.
Or… we could accept that Masterson RAPED people, and maybe don’t give him any support, regardless of his past actions. We don’t need to hold out a hand for the fallen rapist. There are too many people in the world that genuinely need help that wasting even an iota of effort on a rapist is a slap in the face to them, not to mention the people the rapist has harmed. There is no nuance.
Yeah alright
Thank you for making my point.
Masterson did RAPE people. Now, do we want to punish him and rehabilitate him, or get our vengeance boner on and beat on him because that hilariously makes our society feel virtuous?
So much for society demonstrating being better than than those that violate its laws. Blood! Blood! More blood! Give us bloooood!
For rape??? Vengeance. Not some magical rehab for sex offenders
You’re the most honest and/or self-aware one of the “string em up” crowd here. Thank you.
You acknowledge where your stance comes from. I respect that, sincerely.
I think through introspection, education, and rehabilitation most criminals can work toward enlightenment and betterment. But sex offenders commit the most heinous of all crimes and deserve no extra consideration. They are blemishes in human evolution and are plagues on decency and humanity. At the absolute very best, they should be locked away from the rest of us
For just about any other crime I’d tend to agree with the sentiment, but for nearly any other crime I can come up with some hypothetical scenario where that crime is justifiable, where I can comprehend the reasoning behind the act.
I can’t come up with any hypothetical where rape or sexual assault is justifiable.
It’s never justifiable, agreed, but I disagree that it cannot be understood or that the victimizer deserves special worse punishment or consideration. Before we tested for people on the spectrum, people that legitimately lacked the capacity of impulse control were executed like anyone else. Now courts bicker about how low functioning you have to be for such things.
Some people are born very low functioning and never get diagnosed, or throttle that line, and weren’t raised well, etc. Americans in general often refuse to see such nuance in such cases. They prefer to imagine a fair black and white world where every rapist is some evil mastermind when often they aren’t in control of themselves any of the time. I’m sure there are regular and high functioning rapists, like Weinstein and statutory rapists, but I rarely see a differentiation between those calculated actors and some barely sapient person with sporatic impulse control who really doesn’t have the capacity to empathize with their victim or consider the consequences, but squeaked by on the mental competence review. Those are worlds apart imho and should be treated as such.
Im just boggled at the mind at how concerned you are for the mechanics of rapists and how there’s something that makes them rape people and don’t seem to be at all concerned with the effects they have on those they raped.
I see this whole devils advocate thing and like whatever this is internet share your peace, but I just can’t understand how lacking empathy for the people you hurt in any way should lessen the consequences of the impact you cause. Context does not excuse consequences. I’m sure Masterson is sick in the head, you’d have to be to rape someone as maliciously, viciously, and violently as he did. I just hope you’re also out here advocating for more support to the victims who are now also sick from the trauma that was directly caused by this man’s actions.
Sure, let someone who according to you can’t control themselves back on the street and give him a lighter sentence. I’m sure he won’t go out and rape again since his lack of control apparently stops once he’s caught and convicted. We should just wait to see if he does it again and say “ooops, his bad let’s try another 5 years” to his next victim and send her off with hopefully a good ass therapist for the rest of her life since that’s how long the rape is going to affect her.
You talk about society lacking nuance but your nuance seems to extend only to the rapist and his buddies. They were not advocating for him to be rehabilitated. They were asking for him to get less time since “his daughter not having a father” would be an injustice. Sure, he’s been convicted of rape, but the injustice of the law here would be his daughter visiting him in jail where he’s not raping people. Now if Kutcher was like “he’s clearly sick, I hope you find an alternative to prison that helps rehabilitate him so he won’t harm others” I could see your point. That’s not what he said. That’s not what he was asking for. People are angry because it’s enraging to see celebrities and rich people get special treatment. Use each other’s fame to hurt others and escape consequences. Your worry about a lack of nunca is funnily enough so black and white in its arguments, you could say it in and of itself lacks nuance to how complicated the subject and ramifications of rape on a person actually are.
“Internet doesn’t understand nuance”
Proceeds to put words in other people’s mouths by strawmanning their position
lmao like what are you even talking about?
Except this isn’t about Masterson. This is about Kutcher’s support for him. If I have a friend that turns out to be a rapist, that’s not a friend. That’s someone hiding an important, deal breaking secret. If you’ve hidden that from me, I’m not going to tell a judge you’re an otherwise good person that shouldn’t be punished accordingly. If I kept that person as a friend after their rapist nature is revealed, that speaks very poorly on my judgement.
If you really don’t believe that these are people that did something wrong, that they should be shunned for the rest of their days by every living being, where’s the virtue in even keeping a felon alive? Why don’t we just have a door to a firepit in every jury courtroom that opens upon a guilty Verdict? Why pretend to weigh punishment with mercy, but still set them up for failure in every possible way?
Honest question, do we want to be a benevolent society that sees a fallen member, and wants to help them reintegrate after their just punishment, or is mercy as a positive thing in our society as stone dead a concept as greed being a negative thing?
Not writing a letter asking for leniency is not shunning as well as is not vengeance.
Ignoring the “Haven’t we already been hard enough on the rapist?” Choice:
I firmly believe in rehabilitation and am opposed to the death penalty for all but the most heinous of crimes.
But there has been no rehabilitation. This is someone who has spent the better part of two decades silencing his victims and running from his crime. And to come out and say “He deserves leniency” is REAL fucking stupid and, quite frankly, completely undermines any attempt to be seen as “one of the good ones” with respect to a sex abuse organization (and let’s not get into how said org mostly exists to hunt and punish sex workers).
Don’t be glib. If it came out that my oldest friend wqs not only a rapist, but also used his fame and religion to silence the victims and avoid prosecution… AND I was involved with an organization with the express purpose of stopping sex abuse… I’d absolutely tell that friend to pound sand.
There were multiple times when I learned that friends of mine were sexually assaulted, some of those times were by people I considered friends. There’s zero chance that I’d do anything to “put in a good word” for the rapists I once called friends, because their actions in my company have ZERO baring on how they acted in private.
Tl;Dr: If you’re vouching for the upstanding nature of a convicted rapist based on your interactions when he wasn’t being a duplicitous rapist… that says more about your ignorance to how terrible that person can be as opposed to the good works you saw from the rapist when they weren’t raping. You’re also a victim.
Was there physical evidence on these? I’d feel the same way, but what if you didn’t think they did it? Not say that’s what this is. I have no clue.
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There was a whole court case about it.
“I know nothing about this but I question the legitimacy of the court’s decision” is a bizarre take.
I have no clue.
Correct. You fucking sure don’t.
Masterson demonstrated no mercy in raping his victims.
Our society demonstrating no mercy to those our society failed, and we did at some point for most felons if not Masterson, just makes us another link in the chain of cruelty. Mercy should always be considered, at every step, especially if we as a society espouse to be better than those we prosecute.
Justice isn’t for pleasure, vengeance is. If you’re feeling good about anyone’s suffering, Masterson or his victims, that isn’t a sense of justice you’re feeling.
those our society failed
Are you trying to tell me that Society failed Danny Masterson? Do you proof read what you write? No. Society failed the women that he raped. Society fails the millions that will die of treatable disease this year. Society fails the single mother that has to work three jobs to support herself and her child. Society did not, I repeat, did not fail Danny Masterson. Society taught him that rape is bad. Danny decided to do it anyway. Danny failed society.
I hope you’re a thirteen year old otherwise this is some sad, pathetic shit.
This is some I’m 16 and this is deep bullshit. The point is we have a process in place to convict and sentence people charged with crimes. Once he was found guilty do his friends need to abandon him? No. But do they need to actually have him show a change BEFORE they show “leniency”. Yes. Your whole argument is so dumb it borders if not crosses over into making you a rape apologist.
Not writing a letter to the judge isn’t vengeance.
I’m not saying that we need to flog the guilty. I’m just saying that we don’t need to offer him more help than anyone else would get. Is Kutcher writing letters to every judge involved in a rape case and asking for them to go easy because the perp was a youth pastor? Justice is supposed to be blind. If celebrities, politicians, etc. get special treatment then we aren’t working to fix society, we are letting people in power run around doing whatever the fuck they want. Masterson should receive all the help the justice system affords a rapist, but not one bit more, and definitely not because he has celebrity friends writing letters on his behalf.
meaning he was already convicted of rape
The letters are typically asked for before conviction as a just-in-case. He’s still asking for leniency for his rapist buddy I just thought I’d clarify that little bit.
Several of the letters make mention of his conviction. Someone posted them above.
Condemn him? No. Judge him? Yeah, a little bit.
Yea, I get it, some will disagree but, in the end, I’m a bigger fan of “call out culture” than “cancel culture”. The former gives the person a chance to course-correct.
But “cancel culture” makes keyboard warriors and the Twitterverse feel saintly, holier-than-thou and powerful because it takes just a few tweets to mess people up! And look righteous while doing it!
Maybe they are valuable members of society after all! /s
You gonna pin the tail on cancel culture and “The Twitterverse” for criminals like Jeffrey Epstein being outed too? Lmao you’re a joke. Masterson RAPED WOMEN, many more of them than the mere handful that were included in the case, i promise you. And his friends went out of their way to use their influence and names to sway a judge in his favor. That’s fucked up, and anyone who says differently is blatantly in support of rapists, rape apologists, or is undoubtedly one themselves trying to justify monstrous behavior.
I’m not talking about Masterson, Epstein and their crimes - I’m talking about Kutcher, who has done more to help anti-child trafficking than all you keyboard warriors put together. Guilt by association is not a thing, despite how much you get off on it and want to wish it into reality.
anyone who says differently is blatantly in support of rapists, rape apologists, or is undoubtedly one themselves trying to justify monstrous behavior.
Witch hunt 101, anyone? You’re so excited to judge, sentence and exert perverse power over another person’s life, you don’t even realize you are doing the exact same thing as history’s witch hunt instigators, under the guise of a modern, rebranded religion.
OK, now think of this from the perspective of the victims of Danny Masterson’s crimes - what do you think they feel about Ashton’s letter of support?
That we can say Kutcher was wrong for supporting Masterson while also acknowledging that Kutcher has done good things. People aren’t good or bad, they are a mixture. Condemn the bad traits and praise the good traits.
Turns out that being against rape in 99.9% of cases isn’t good enough.
Correct.
I guarantee their PR team warned them against sending those letters, and they ignored them. The arrogance of the wealthy.
I don’t have many friends. The few I have I like a lot, and would go to great lengths to help them. If one of my friends asked me to write a letter to a judge. Even if I knew they did it. I’d write that letter. I would do and have done far crazier, and morally dubious thangs than that to help or protect a friend.
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I’d still write it. I wouldn’t excuse what they did. I’d simply point out that at least one person on the outside knows a different side of that person.
I don’t know the details of Danny’s case. I’m sure that he is an abhorrent human that deserves to be punished. I’m not trying to excuse what he did. I’m simply saying that if I were in Ashton’s shoes. I would have done the same thing.
Just read Ashton’s letter. I thought it’d be way worse judging by some of the comments here, but it wasn’t that bad actually. He didn’t make excuses, just asked for leniency during sentencing. Also brought up a good point about Masterson’s daughter being left without a dad.
Edit: Idk about Mila’s letter though lol. It was awkwardly super focused on the drug-free stuff and no mention of the rapes.
The issue is he never wrote a single letter like that for all the people “his” charity put away. Infact he went so far as to say they deserve no leniency. I’m sure some of them had kids who will now also go without a parent.
Funny how he sung a different tune when he found out one of his best friends has been CONVICTED of raping two people.
You’re right, that’s pretty hypocritical!
That’s fine, but you shouldn’t run an anti sex-abuse organization if that’s what you’d do. I think ‘friends above all else’ is incompatible with seeking to help and protect victims of abuse, many of which will never get justice precisely because their rapist’s friends protected them.
Do you truly know though? There have been countless cases of people performing sudden uncharacteristic and abhorent actions.
I’d never have expected my father to rape his own daughter, but we exist in this timeline. It’s a fact.
Luka Magnotta’s mother still has faith in her ‘version’ of Luke, but does she truly understand him or is she blinded by her emotions?
What are you actually writing then? Who are you really writing about?
There are also countless cases of innocent people being convicted of crimes they didn’t commit. I’m not saying that happened here but it does happen.
I want you to know that I have typed out a response to you like 4 times. Every time it’s super long. This will be my attempt at condensing it.
As someone that was sexually abused as a child. I fully agree that you never truly know someone. That’s why you write a letter that says “I trust in the courts decision that my friend is guilty, but I never knew that side of them, and they will be missed”. Obviously that’s condensed down, but I think you get the point. You can say I love this person without absolving them of responsibility.
The reason I’m like this is because I was a heroin addict for years. All of my family, and most of my friends abandoned me. A select few friends and my partner came together and saved me. They gave me places to stay, and paid for and gave me rides to treatment.
Now, I am opiate free. I have kids, and I’m still alive. Hell, my best childhood friend died of a heroin overdose, and I adopted his kid.
My family abandoned me, but my friends didn’t.
To paraphrase Bud from Kill Bill. “I don’t dodge guilt, and I always pay my comeuppance.”
Anyway I’m falling asleep at the keyboard. So, I hope this all makes sense when you read it. I hope you have a good night.
It’s a conflict of interest for Kutcher. And he deserves all the bad publicity he’s getting for it.
I agree, and I think stepping down is the right thing to do.
Yeah, no. If my best friend, if my brother were convicted by a jury of their peers multiple times for forcibly raping women, I’m out. It doesn’t mean I’d lobby for the punishment to be harsher or anything, but like, they did it. The judge and jury heard all the evidence and testimony and determined he’s guilty. Keep in mind, he committed a pre-meditated crime that probably traumatized the poor victim. For life. Then he did it again.
AFTER knowing that, if you insert yourself into the Justice process and go out of your way to write a letter trying to use personal anecdotes/celebrity/money/fame/goodwill to enable them to get a lighter sentence… you’re a piece of shit. The innocent victims don’t have celebrities on their side putting their thumbs on the scale…
I don’t have many friends.
Yeah, I can see why.
I don’t have many friends. The few I have I like a lot, and would go to great lengths to help them. If one of my friends asked me to write a letter to a judge. Even if I knew they did it. I’d write that letter. I would do and have done far crazier, and morally dubious thangs than that to help or protect a friend.
What about if your friend raped children? Would you still be ok with that? Or are you only OK with it if they rape adults? Just trying to work out exactly where people like you draw the line.
PS: You didn’t need to include the part about not having many friends, it’s heavily implied by the rest of your comment.
I’ve already said this several times. It’s not about being “ok” with any of it. What it is about, is just because someone does horrible doesn’t just erase years positive experiences. It’s ok to love someone from a distance.
Part 2 of your question is a straw man fallacy, and I’m not going to even going to entertain that question.
You’re quip about friends tells me that you’re either young, or unsure of what a friend truly is. I’m not talking about people you know and see sometimes. I’m talking about if you were in jail and needed 500 bail at 2 am. How many people could you call that aren’t family?
You’re quip about friends tells me that you’re either young, or unsure of what a friend truly is. I’m not talking about people you know and see sometimes. I’m talking about if you were in jail and needed 500 bail at 2 am. How many people could you call that aren’t family?
I’ve read and laughed at this three times already.
It sounds like you and your “friends” are terrible people. Stop getting arrested and apologising for rapists you sick fuck.
Ahhh I see we have now moved on to the ad hominem fallacy.
Very good very good
His sex abuse organization was anti-child?
I mean, I guess that’s somewhat positive…?
Why was he running a sex abuse organization that was specifically anti-child in the first place?
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I mean wouldn’t it be better that they don’t want children in their sex abuse organization?
I don’t know a lot about the guy but his involvement with that organization was probably the only thing I respected about him.
Do you know anything about the charity? Or just what his PR team sold you?
Fair question.
