FTTP + mesh wifi FTW!
you realize that you need a router to plug in a LAN cable
Isn’t that just a WAP ?
Wet Asscess Point?
Wet ass point
Wet ass plane
I think it’s actually a JPEG
I think it’s a combo, but I’m not 100%
You could go straight into the modem or into a switch. :)
In my setup, I have modem > router > switch > patch panel > outlets and POE APs.
Don’t forget the hundreds or thousands of dollars it’ll take to wire up your whole house with Ethernet plus the wireless router you’ll need anyway for any device that doesn’t have an ethernet plug
My favourite thing is to hear people talk about having ‘great WiFi’ as if that is an internet connection.
And you want to explain the difference, then decide it’s not worth the effort.
I really don’t understand why it’s such a common confusion. None of these people struggle with the difference between their gas supply and their oven.
But gas and ovens aren’t magical witchcraft
They are
I think people care about different things, networking might not be something they’re interested in so aren’t interested in spending time learning about it. Where as when you are interested in it it’s not so hard to read, watch videos about it and experiment with it. At least that’s generally how I find these things work.
But when your electricity goes out, do you even consider whether it’s the power plant, substation, distribution station, or individual service drop that is the problem? Probably not. But I’m sure many power line technicians see the phrase “my power’s out” in the same way tech-savvy people see the phrase “my wifi’s out”.
How much of that is in your control to diagnose, let alone fix? If the neighbours are out too, that means it’s already out of your hands.
When it comes to “the internet is down”, much of the time it is something within your control, whether or not you know that. It’s not a very good analogy imo.
When it comes to “the internet is down”, much of the time it is something within your control
This really isn’t true anymore. Most people use all-in-one modem+router+AP. I’d guess that unless you’re one to tinker with your router, there’s a much better chance you’ve tripped a breaker or GFCI than there is that you’ve somehow broken your home wifi.
I consider those if only cause it may give me an idea of when power will come back on. Ill even drive around to see how much is out or if i can find repair crews.
I’m sure you driving around to find a random power truck and asking them to fix your power faster is much appreciated by the people fixing it… I’m sure they don’t make fun of you or threaten you in anyway after you drive off while they have to be out in the weather doing their job.
I said looking for repair crews said nothing about bugging them, that was your jump in logic. If I know powers down in my block then if I see a repair crew about a block away I can assume power will be on in about an hour or so. Plus I usually am grabbing food at the same time.
Soooo, ya do exactly what I said in last comment… there is a number to call for power outages. They guys in the truck are on call to a problem, you are just annoying them.
A very large portion of people who use electricity everyday have never given a single thought to where their power comes from. They are the same folks who feel like they are superior plugging in their Tesla and knowing they are making a difference… while the coal plant drops another traincar to charge it up.
The people who bitch the loudest are always the ones who have absolutely no clue how things actually work and that every single decision is give/take. And if you try to explain you are (insert ism/ist). Tards gonna tard. Way she goes, fuckin way she goes.
If all the food in my fridge is warm I don’t immediately assume my electricity has been cut off rather than something is wrong with my fridge.
I used to work for spectrum. I’d say around 60% of people legit do not know the difference between wifi and Internet. No wifi means no Internet, to them. Makes some trouble shooting harder
I hate that people refer to ethernet, unironically as a “wifi cable”.
It hurts my soul.
Them: “The WiFi is down.”
Me: ‘… No, I still see the TV & the laptop & Pi, on the network.’
Them: “I can’t connect to Flipboard.”
Me: ‘Ohhh, the internet is down. It’s probably at the cable modem. Wait a moment for it to failover to wireless, then try again.’
Them: “Yep, now the WiFi is back.”‘Ohhh, the internet is down.’
One could argue that’s not right either 😉
Pedantic but correct. Only your connection to the internet is down.
Even when there are massive “internet outages” sometimes it’s just DNS being bad. The internet works just fine, it’s just not working in a way that you can make use of it.
Most consumer devices these days, if they detect the internet is down over a wifi connection (e.g. by inability to reach
1.1.1.1), will automatically disconnect from that wifi network, or at least show the same UI as if it had.
Have that router. Snakey boy wins.
How do you find it? Do you manage the scary spikes?
If you flip it upside down it’s a Halloween spider decoration.
You must have forgotten to sharpen the spikes 😹
Mobile devices -> Wifi Devices which can’t be connected via Lan (various reasons) -> Wifi Else -> LAN
It’s that simple
This is quality
Real talk though, I own that router and it’s awesome. Can’t say the wifi signal is much different than any other router I’ve owned, but it’s got loads of awesome features I use for hosting stuff. DDNS support plus Let’s Encrypt plus OpenVPN support in one box. Very handy.
You could get a Mikrotik for that price, I think.
Latency is the name of the game if you’re gaming. Copper will always give you the fastest ping times compared to the fastest wifi you can buy.
Wireless has a lower minimum latency than wired, that’s why trading houses set up relay towers from Chicago to NYC, in order to achieve the lowest possible latency for their trades between the two markets.
Wired gives better stability, due to almost zero interference noise. The primary cause of sucky WiFi speeds/stability, is having too many other people’s routers nearby.
No shit?
I mean copper runs at 2/3 the speed of light.
Wireless is pretty much the speed of light.
I thought they used dedicated fiber for their links.
Ehhh… not quite. There’s evidence that copper runs closer to the speed of light (aka c), than fiber. Light through glass runs at around 2/3 c, making it the slowest option.
Wireless technically runs as fast as light, through atmosphere that’s a tiny bit slower than c, but as close as we can get.
There’s also a large argument among physisicts and electrician YouTubers about the speed of electricity through a wire, and I don’t understand the conclusions, though they were articulated quite well by the YouTubers, it just didn’t stick in my brain. The premise is how fast a lightbulb would illuminate if it had one light-second of pure copper (or superconducting) wire between the power source and the bulb, with little to no resistance. It’s interesting but nuanced and complex.
Wifi, being EM waves (same as light) should run the fastest, copper ethernet close behind and fiber dragging it’s heels at 2/3rds c. However, in practical applications, wifi has more to overcome since it’s a shared medium. Copper and fiber have a dedicated medium, so they have no competition in signaling, wifi needs to contend with everything from other wifi networks spurious emissions from other frequencies, even background cosmic radiation, as well as itself (half duplex). Because of all of that, you generally end up with wifi in last because it has so many protections and checks that it delays itself to ensure that it’s transmission will be recieved intact. The packets are generally larger and take longer to get started, so all the additional (mostly artificial) slowdowns make it slower. However, if you use highly directional antennas, a pair of them, on different but otherwise equivalent frequencies for send/receive, and cut out a lot of the other factors by designing the system well, then disable most of the protections because they’re not needed by design, it will be faster, at least in terms of latency, than fiber or copper in almost every case.
Since designing a multi-access system that doesn’t need wifi’s protections is borderline impossible, this is limited to very controlled point to point systems where both ends are tightly constrained.
So the argument “wifi has a lower minimum latency” is correct, but irrelevant in 99.99% of use-cases. Copper is easier and cheaper than fiber and actually runs faster, than fiber, but it’s only viable for extremely short runs, up to 100m in most cases, and fiber, while “slow” at 2/3rds c, is better for longer distance since there’s less line-loss across the glass per foot.
This is a very deep topic and I’m no physicist, but I’ve been endlessly fascinated by this issue for a very long time. The information here is the result of my research over many years. I still consider fiber to be the gold standard of data communication, ethernet to be next-best and overall best for relatively short connections, and wireless to be dead last due to all the challenges it faces that are not easily overcome.
WiFi 5 latency is only two times higher than cooper (0.3ms vs 0.6ms). WiFi 6 has the same or even lower latency. WiFi 7 is even better. If latency is your game, copper is a poor choice. Unless you have spare money for an industrial 100Gbps set up. Which you don’t.
Please speak standards, not marketing language. Replace WiFi and number with 802.11 and letters in the end.
If latency is your game, copper is a poor choice
One packet drop for TCP creates huge latency for application level protocol. And not many games use UDP for their transport.
not many games use UDP for their transport
Citation Needed
I have never heard of a latency-sensitive game that doesn’t use UDP for inner loop communication. Sure they use TCP for login and server browser, but the actual communication for gameplay almost always uses UDP.
Let’s see… Terraria, Factorio, Minecraft.
Minecraft and Terraria use both TCP and UDP, presumably in the way I described (TCP for initial connection, asset download, etc. and UDP for world state sync). Factorio uses UDP exclusively, and implements reliable transport where needed in software.
Unless it’s changed in the past year which I doubt, Minecraft exclusively uses TCP for client/server communication. I’ve been modding the game for years and am pretty familiar with the protocol. I think it’s actually one of the few which don’t use UDP to some capacity.
The original PC Java client uses TCP; every other client, including the C++ PC version, uses UDP.
Oops, Factorio moved to UDP.
Can’t find any UDP implementation or even UDP protocol description for Terraria, while there are implementations of Terraria protocol that use TCP and documentation for it. Basically no evidence of UDP and a lot of evidence of TCP for gameplay.
Minecraft uses only TCP. Sources: wiki.vg, myself, myself and friend of mine and myself again(no link for now, but two minecraft proxy server implementations)
The wifi latency on generic 5ghz routers is like 5ms if not less
Your experience varies massively depending on your RF environment. In my suburban neighborhood, I’m getting a stable 3.4ms to my router. The same hardware when I was in a dense urban environment was around 11ms. I’ve never looked at retry counters, but if I had to guess, I’m getting close to zero right now, but was getting considerably higher in a dense area.
Not even 5 ms. I have a properly set up Wi-Fi at home and you’ll feel no difference in gaming. Wi-Fi only adds like 1-2 ms latency at most.
Unless you have no choice - a good WiFi will not add noticeable latency.
Myself I am playing over 5ghz wifi. I would say I don’t feel much difference, but prefer cable any time!
Is the notebook or desktop wifi NIC and antenna important or only the router? Because when I had a shitty laptop a few years back the latency sucked ass, both at home and at my university (where I hope they had good network components but idk)
With wifi, everything is important, even the number of people connected on your channel… not the number of wifi networks on the channel, the number of total nodes using the same channel. The ap hardware factors in, your wifi card (client) factors in, even drivers and other things can factor in. The band (2.4/5/6 GHz), the non-wifi traffic, spurious emissions from other harmonic frequencies, even electrical noise from gadgets and other devices nearby. You can even factor in distance to the ap and cosmic background noise.
On top of that, it’s half duplex, so only one node can successfully transmit at a time. So it interferes with itself.
It’s a complete mess of unknowns and unknowable things, unless you have a very good spectrum analyser to look into it.
IMO, this is what makes WiFi so terrible. There’s simply too many factors that can be slowing you down, most of which you can’t see and aren’t obvious.
WiFi 5 latency on a decent router (not the shit your ISP gives you for free) is only 0.6ms. Yes, that’s less than 1ms.
Maybe…
your latency on your network might be 0.6ms, but for most practical use-cases, it will be orders of magnitude more. Partly due to the interference and half duplex nature of wifi, but also because of CSMA/CA (carrier sense multi access / collision avoidance) algorithm, which listens before transmitting to ensure the channel is clear, and waits when it’s busy until it’s clear before transmitting. The actual transit time for each frame is very short, but getting to the point where you can actually transmit is the main challenge for wifi.
Propegation time for a 1500 byte frame on gigabit Ethernet is approximately 12 µs, or 12 microseconds, aka 0.012 ms. So the argument is kind of squished here. Given that you have a dedicated channel to the switch (and not needing a carrier sense, collision avoidance of detection algorithm with ethernet) the frame can be immediately sent, so the total transit time from a computer connected by ethernet to a router or switch is orders of magnitude faster.
Here’s the thing - it won’t in real life.
This comment does not make sense to me
Right. Like even in the shittiest scenario that’s not a major difference. There’s stuff like interference and the speeds are lower, sure, but 1 gigabit is plenty for non enterprise situations
There’s no interference unless you live in a Soviet block.
I just tested ping between my weak computers, one of which supports only 100mbit ethernet and are sequentially connected via cheap 2$ dumb switch and ISP-provided router and got 0.187ms average, while ping via same system, but using 802.11ac for one device got 8.16ms with standard deviation of 11.9, maximum of 67ms and minimum of 1.44ms.
You have a very shitty WiFi over there. I haven’t seen anything over 1ms ever.
I just don’t live on the moon, neighbours have WIFI too.
How would you get an entire 5g BTS without frequency regulating agency hunting your ass?
I meant to say 5ghz
Depends, am i routing data or cosplaying the lich king?
Fucking millennials. Learn to multitask.
Wrong generation
Indeed, i’m genx
I’m pretty sure the love for Warcraft III evenly splits X and Y.
Total Annihilation.
ARM vs Core
My last several multicore multithreaded “smartphones” each sucked at multitasking; why should I hold myself to a higher standard than the entire telecom industry?
If your TV vendor decides to only put 100Mb cards in their TV then unfortunately spikey boy wins and you lose unless you’re willing to downrez your AV catalog.
Discovered this on a laptop after running the cable. Wifi was getting 250mbps vs 10/100 speeds
Could be something wrong with a cable? A damaged cable can downgrade your connection from gigabit to 100mb
Or to 10mbps, half duplex. I’ve witnessed this. My former company was trying to sell a client a new server because it was too slow when I noticed it was only operating at 10/half, instead of the 1000/full that both it and the switch was capable of. Some testing later, and the problem was at the server side cable termination, a quick re-termination and they were up to gigabit. Grabbed a spare run to the switch and connected another cable after verifying it was good and the company went from 10M/half to a LAG of 2000/full in the matter of about an hour.
The speed complaints stopped.
A TV I mean why not, but on a Laptop? Is it from the nineties O_o ?
My canon ink tank type printer from mid COVID era is the same, didn’t realise it was only 10/100 on the wired port until I was looking at the switch one day and wondered why I had a yellow light instead of green, was about to run a new network cable until I checked the printer
I guess you have to have a very particular workload, and printer, to need a gigabit line…
Right?
Casually printing highway ad posters at home, nothing special
Printers really don’t need even 100mbps though. They’re just not fast enough to spit out the prints your sending even at those speeds. So I get it.
I get it too, but it was a bit of a shock given that the selling points for everything is bigger better faster stronger, otherwise why would people upgrade. It’s like finding something with a micro USB port on it instead of type c
They do that shit on purpose. Use a shield or an htpc. Only input your TV should be getting is HDMI.
Hell no! Only DVI or DisplayPort. No money to patent trolls!
From a signaling perspective, they’re very very similar. Given that all TVs have HDMI, it may be the only option.
DVI? Yes, basically HDMI is DVI guarded by patent trolls. DisplayPort? No, it is packet-based.
The only real benefit to HDMI over DVI is that it carries audio where DVI does not, which is why it’s used on so many TVs. I know DP can do audio too; so I’m not even going to touch on that. DVI however, can do dual-link, which IMO, makes it a much better video format regardless of any patent nonsense.
Is that why my shit keeps buffering any time I try to stream a movie larger than 50-60 GB, despite the fact that I have a gigabit connection and a 2.5Gb router? TIL. BRB, running some speed tests on my TV…
It’s been 9 hours, how did it go?
I don’t understand how it’s acceptable for $2,000 TVs to have only 100 mbps ports, wouldn’t it only cost a few cents per unit to upgrade?
Venn diagram of people who understand this specific technicality and people who don’t want to deal with the shitty TV software is almost a circle though.
I’d rather get a Android box at the very least…, or just HTPC.
I set up an hdmi-Ethernet converter and run Ethernet between my TV and main desktop. It solves problems.
That’s one solution… unless someone wants to use the computer while you’re watching something, it’s fine. For any shared access TV/computer set up, this falls apart quickly.
I want my SO to be able to watch something on the TV while I’m playing a game though (and vice versa). Personally all of my stuff is independent, we each have a gaming computer, and the TV ruins separately of all of it. We have a Samsung smart TV and it has a Chromecast attached, so we have options there… but not everyone is set up like me.
Nobody’s using this computer except me and nobody uses it for media except during group nights so it’s no problem. Technically it has a PlayStation hooked up to it that could be used for DVDs/Blu-rays but that never happens.
I’m in that Venn diagram but I’m married with kids and the UX of anything but the TV remote and Plex software is a bit much for me to convince the family to learn. And potentially relearn when I find the next great app like jellyfin 😅
I think there’s another circle with at least significant overlap between those two of family techies who just can’t convince the rest of the family to care.
My wife and kids found Jellyfin easier to use because it more closely resembles Netflix. Your mileage may vary but I get it, and it’s why I even use a media server over just plugging in a laptop with Kodi.
Sometimes the best solution is whatever you can get the users to actually use.
What the hell are you watching that has a bitrate of >100Mb? Because unless you have a 16K television I suspect the answer is nothing.
I have plenty with higher bitrate audio that can hit 80. And with the overhead of the rest of the connections, and possibly just some limits on the chipset for TCP overhead etc, it starts stuttering around that 80mbps limit.
80MBit/s audio? How?
For reference: 2x channels of 16-bit 48KHz raw uncompressed PCM audio (ie “perfect except maybe the noise floor under very very specific circumstances”) is about 1.5MBit/s. Even if you go 96KHz 6 channels (5.1 setup) 24bit uncompressed PCM then it’s only 14MBit + overheads.
The audio isn’t 80Mbps, the entire file is. The audio is TrueHD7.1, though. I probably don’t need it but I haven’t bothered transcoding it yet because I’m not exactly out of space or bandwidth.
I have a 4k blu-ray remux of Misery that has a 104 Mpbs bitrate. But there are only a couple of movies in my collection that break 100. Most of my remuxes are around 50 to 70.
Anyhoo it’s all moot in terms of network speed since I just use a htpc to play all of them.
Holy ducking hell you nerds.
A 5ms round trip isn’t causing noticeable latency in games.
You are just bad. Stop blaming your router. You sound as dumb as idiots plugging in controllers because they think they are a step away from being a pro gamer.
Sure boss
Well it’d be fine if it actually was 5ms round trip, however even with Wifi 6 you’re looking at ~90ms round trip, which actually is a noticable difference.
That link is full of shit 🤣 90ms 🤣🤣🤣🤣
You’re the one that specified round trip!
You can hate all you want, but I tested my xbox controller connected to the PC via cable, bluetooth and the xbox dongle. The dongle was very much on par with the cable, probably because they use a custom 5GHz protocol, but bluetooth had noticeable latency. It’s not horrible, but clearly worse than the othet 2 options.
If it is cat6 ethernet wire wins
Cables are fine until that stupid clip breaks off and every nudge unplugs the fucking cable ever so slightly that it doesn’t work but you can’t see it.
Easy fix with a tight layer of electrical tape to act as a wedge. You can also shove a toothpick in the top for extra staying power.
Haha true story
This is why Pro level is to terminate all of your permanent cabling with punch down jacks and patch panels, then use throw-away patch cables from jacks to devices.
Look at mr moneybags with their fancy data closet.
It’s not that expensive… you can buy a home punch down board for cheap, just need some space. You don’t need an actual rack.
All of money and downtime I save from replacing broken RJ45 plugs more than covers the $10 tool and extra $2 that it costs for a keystone jack and wall mount box.
Crimp tool: 2$
100 RJ45: 3$
Your problem will be solved for rest of you life and life of your children for 5 dollars.
Stealing them off my workplace :0$
It’s pretty easy to crimp a new one back on, and even easier with a 30 dollar tool.
Get a crimp tool and a 50-pack of connectors. If one breaks, it takes all of 60 seconds to re-crimp the end and you’ll only lose about an inch of cable length.
I re-cabled my entire apartment when I first moved in. Best decision I ever made. I just used the existing Cat5 lines to pull my Cat6a instead. Apartment got a free upgrade to Cat6a (which they never even knew about, because I wasn’t going to lose a deposit over something stupid like “unapproved upgrades”) and I got my tasty gigabit.
I was trying to download Red Dead Redemption 2. It was like 120GB, and was going to take hours at 10Mbps on the existing Cat5. I quickly said “fuck that, I can run new lines in 45 minutes and have the download done in 20 minutes with gigabit.” Sure enough, about an hour later, I was playing my game.
Make sure to get pass-through RJ45 connectors.
It’s 10x easier to trim the excess after crimping, rather than getting the lengths spot on before.
I remember running out of those at work, & intentionally crushing the cheap-ass crimp-tool in my hand, just so I could finish up the next day with pass-through connectors & my Klein tool, rather than spend the next two hours re-terminating connectors that I ‘should have’ gotten exactly right the first time.
Dunno, I have no problems with regular RJ45 connectors.
I have zero experience with networking hardware. How hard is it to recable an apartment for a newb like me? How does that even work, do I gotta pull wires out of the walls?
Adding new connectors means you only need about an inch extra on each side. Very low skill required if you have the (cheap) tools to do it. Actually putting new wires in place is a bit harder but still fairly easy. Attach some string to the old cable, pull it all the way through the walls. Attach the new cable to the string, then pull that through the walls. Then just add the connectors like the other scenario.
Pull the new cables taped to the old cables, no need for the string step.
If the holes are sized for a single ethernet cable, you won’t be able to pull through two. If your confident holes are all oversized, sure go for it. Otherwise you risk getting it stuck half way through a wall and pulling the two cables apart
Fair point. I’m an electrician by trade so i hate it people drill holes that small, but it does happen.
No pulling wires from walls, just cutting the ends off and installing new connectors. Might not be enough in every case though.
Crimping took me like 5 attempts to get right when I learned it in school.
Replacing connectors is east, but won’t solve your problem if the issue is bad cables in the walls. Pulling new cables entirely depends on how well they were installed. A lazy install will actually be much easier to replace, because a lazy installer won’t bother stapling cables in place. They’ll just run the cables across the attic/crawl space and leave it where it lands.
If you’re lucky and got a lazy installer, then you can be equally lazy; The old cable in the wall is going to be your pull line for your new cable. Step 1 is figuring out which lines are which. This is easier with something like a cable sniffer, but there are a few ways to do it. But assuming you know which cables are which, the rest is fairly straightforward.
Use electrical tape to affix the old cable to the new one. Just make a bend on each cable, hook the resulting bends together, then wrap them tightly with electrical tape. The bends hooked together allow the cable to hold the strain, rather than the adhesive on the tape. And you want to use electrical tape because it stretches. Pulling it tight when you wrap ensures that the tape will compress the cables with every wrap. You also want to try to make the connection as “smooth” as possible, so it won’t snag on anything when you pull it.
Now that the old cable is attached to the new, just grab the other end of the old cable and start pulling. It’ll drag the new cable through the wall for you as you pull it out of the wall. Fair warning this is much easier if you have someone feeding the new cable in as you pull, to ensure it doesn’t snag on anything as it enters the wall. It also only reliably works on installs without a lot of bends and corners; Every corner you have to pull around is another potential corner to get snagged on. If you get snagged, sometimes pulling it backwards (tugging on the new cable entering the wall) can help you reset to try again. But sometimes there’s no replacement for good old fashioned legwork; If you get really stuck, or your tape comes undone, or your cable breaks from the strain, you may need to go crawling around your attic to fix it. This is a fast method, but it’s not 100% reliable.
I had whatb I assumed was a fault modem/router from the isp and one of the ports ran at 100mbps while the other ran at 1000. I figured this out when it took forever to transfer a file that was just a few gb.
I have a collection of 3d prints on thingiverse that reattach that part. Highly recommend.
Well until you have to guide that snaky boy through the whole apartment and through door frames.
I ran mine through the ceiling vents when I rented in college lol
If you connect both ends of that snakey boi into the router then you’ll find out who wins real quick
My router handles that just fine?
It’s a newer version of Spike, too.
Network storm protection built in? Pretty fancy
That shouldn’t be a problem for a thing built in the last decade for sure.
You’d be surprised.
ethernet loop detection isn’t as common as you think.
What about lan to wan? Can it detect that too?
